Must one obey Jesus to be saved?

[Inquisitor]

I was just basing my view on Titus 2:11-13, which doesn’t say that we are required to have first done those works and then we will be saved as the result or that we need to become saved first and then we will do those works as the result, but rather it describes our salvation and God being gracious to us by teaching us to do those works. I am speaking about the aspect of God’s gift of salvation that we are experiencing in the present by directing our lives towards being a doer of God’s law, which intrinsically requires us to be a doer of it in order to have that experience. Being saved from not being an obeyer Jesus intrinsically involves being an obeyer of him and someone who is not an obeyer of him is not being saved from not being an obeyer of him.

Here is some advice from Paul on the Christian life.

Romans 12:9-13
Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good. Be devoted to one another in brotherly love;
give preference to one another in honor; not lagging behind in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord;
rejoicing in hope, persevering in tribulation, devoted to prayer, contributing to the needs of the saints, practicing hospitality.

 

[Cameron143]

OK. You're pretty bossy. Yes, as best I could and as best I can as time moves on and experiences arise. Ditto. Phil2:13 and others - such is the growth process working with God working in us in Christ in Spirit.

How about you?

If you were loving like Christ you would simply see me as inquisitive and bear long with me esteeming me before yourself. I imagine you also wouldn't grow weary in well doing.

 

[studier]

Yes, but although I vaguely knew that I did not intend to revert to salvation via works when I viewed works as somewhat separate from saving faith, I had never realized that from conversion to perseverance is one second during which faith does not change, and so this truth continues from the first second until the last (RM 1:17).

I wanted to say that since it is as you say here, it's important to get it right to begin with. IMO, these other versions are actually changing faith after conversion which creates the proverbial downhill snowball effect as interpretation continues.

I think part of the issue that the Text is dealing with is that faith and obedience are first inside of us - we are mentally submitted in faith. Then that internal faith-obedience becomes outward in good works. But it remains and builds inwardly which is what Jesus was talking about in regard to law - you've heard it said but I tell you - so the inward man grows in the faith-obedience mindset and the good works done via that internal faith-obedience increase under His training and enabling.

When John writes in 1John, for example, he's repetitively dealing with mindset.

 

[GWH]

If you were loving like Christ you would simply see me as inquisitive and bear long with me esteeming me before yourself. I imagine you also wouldn't grow weary in well doing.

Not sure Christ would bear with you as long as studier has. :^)

 

[GWH]

I wanted to say that since it is as you say here, it's important to get it right to begin with. IMO, these other versions are actually changing faith after conversion which creates the proverbial downhill snowball effect as interpretation continues.

I think part of the issue that the Text is dealing with is that faith and obedience are first inside of us - we are mentally submitted in faith. Then that internal faith-obedience becomes outward in good works. But it remains and builds inwardly which is what Jesus was talking about in regard to law - you've heard it said but I tell you - so the inward man grows in the faith-obedience mindset and the good works done via that internal faith-obedience increase under His training and enabling.

When John writes in 1John, for example, he's repetitively dealing with mindset.

Yes, I think the snowballing effect is an apt analogy, and yes, noting the inward-outward dynamic as Christians mature (hopefully) is also insightful.

 

[studier]

If you were loving like Christ you would simply see me as inquisitive and bear long with me esteeming me before yourself. I imagine you also wouldn't grow weary in well doing.

I've become accustomed to doing what I can on forums and emails, etc. But there's still nothing like looking into a persons's eyes. You do come across as tough to communicate with at times especially when inferring or outright stating repetitive allegations and making demands, but I hope you can see that I do accommodate you by not requiring we go to Scripture because I've noted this is really not your practice. And yes, I am getting more and more weary and not just at this nor just with you. My years are advancing and at times it seems rapidly.

 

[Cameron143]

Not sure Christ would bear with you as long as studier has. :^)

Then you don't know Christ. And if he would actually answer questions, we could have concluded long ago.

Perhaps you will indulge me. Have you obeyed the command to be holy as God is holy? If so, how did you do so? In your strength? Did God accomplish this in you?

 

[Blain]

I've become accustomed to doing what I can on forums and emails, etc. But there's still nothing like looking into a persons's eyes. You do come across as tough to communicate with at times especially when inferring or outright stating repetitive allegations and making demands, but I hope you can see that I do accommodate you by not requiring we go to Scripture because I've noted this is really not your practice. And yes, I am getting more and more weary and not just at this nor just with you. My years are advancing and at times it seems rapidly.

I appreciate your posts and hope that you continue to do so I know it can be hard at times to deal with certain people I rarely ever put anyone on ignore but there were times when I had as it wore me down inside dealing with certain people

 

[Cameron143]

I've become accustomed to doing what I can on forums and emails, etc. But there's still nothing like looking into a persons's eyes. You do come across as tough to communicate with at times especially when inferring or outright stating repetitive allegations and making demands, but I hope you can see that I do accommodate you by not requiring we go to Scripture because I've noted this is really not your practice. And yes, I am getting more and more weary and not just at this nor just with you. My years are advancing and at times it seems rapidly.

You don't see scripture in my posts because I'm asking questions. Where I explain I employ scripture. Would like chapter and verse too? Are not the commands to be holy and love in scripture? Did Paul not say...I live, yet not I; Christ lives in me? Is God not Alpha and Omega and the author and finisher of our faith? How do you say I don't employ scripture?

 

[studier]

I appreciate your posts and hope that you continue to do so I know it can be hard at times to deal with certain people I rarely ever put anyone on ignore but there were times when I had as it wore me down inside dealing with certain people

Thank you. Same for me on the ignore. I only have 1 or 2 there as I recall.

 

[studier]

Did Paul not say...I live, yet not I; Christ lives in me?

Something like that but is that the entire verse? Can you not copy and paste it so we can look at the entire verse? I'll bet if you look at it you'll see the passive and active concepts I mentioned.

 

[Cameron143]

Something like that but is that the entire verse? Can you not copy and paste it so we can look at the entire verse? I'll bet if you look at it you'll see the passive and active concepts I mentioned.

My point was not what the verses teach but that I was employing scripture.

 

[studier]

My point was not what the verses teach but that I was employing scripture.

You employed a part of the verse. Do you not have access to a digital Text you can paste from?

NKJ Galatians 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Do you see the last part of the verse that speaks of I now live & I live by faith?

Do you see the interplay between Christ living in us and us living?

This is not all passive but us actively living with Christ living in us.

This is the same Paul who wrote Phil2:12-13 with the same concept of us doing things with God providing His capacity to us to do so.

There is something else here re: faith to consider but now now.

 

[GWH]

Then you don't know Christ. And if he would actually answer questions, we could have concluded long ago.

Perhaps you will indulge me. Have you obeyed the command to be holy as God is holy? If so, how did you do so? In your strength? Did God accomplish this in you?

Well, I hope Christ has a sense of humor as we seek to become more like Him
(who is not through with us yet :^)

 

[Cameron143]

Well, I hope Christ has a sense of humor as we seek to become more like Him
(who is not through with us yet :^)

How does one make themselves more like Christ? Is this possible? Can we conform ourselves into the image of Christ?

 

[GWH]

How does one make themselves more like Christ? Is this possible? Can we conform ourselves into the image of Christ?

TOP #157: Christ gave various gifts regarding teaching God’s Word so that God’s people would grow spiritually and become mature. [EPH 4:7-15, cf. TOP #202 &255] Although salvation is by faith, becoming spiritually mature is by good works or continuing to cooperate with the loving Spirit of God (cf. 2:10).

TOP #255: By learning Scripture Christians may be wise regarding correct doctrine, rebuking and righteousness, becoming equipped for doing good works. [2TM 3:14-17&4:5] This a significant nuance or elaboration of TOP #157 & 202. Paul applies it by charging Timothy with preaching God’s Word, correcting false doctrine, rebuking sin and encouraging persevering faith.

TOP #187: Those who have saving faith cooperate with God’s good works. [PHP 2:12-13] This is a significant reiteration of TOP #150. God works in believers via His Holy Spirit (cf. TOP #28).

TOP #188: The goal of Christian faith is to become blameless. [PHP 2:14-16] Note that being indwelt by the HS does not result in immediate actual perfection, which remains a lifelong goal (as Paul will teach in 3:12).

 

[Cameron143]

TOP #157: Christ gave various gifts regarding teaching God’s Word so that God’s people would grow spiritually and become mature. [EPH 4:7-15, cf. TOP #202 &255] Although salvation is by faith, becoming spiritually mature is by good works or continuing to cooperate with the loving Spirit of God (cf. 2:10).

TOP #255: By learning Scripture Christians may be wise regarding correct doctrine, rebuking and righteousness, becoming equipped for doing good works. [2TM 3:14-17&4:5] This a significant nuance or elaboration of TOP #157 & 202. Paul applies it by charging Timothy with preaching God’s Word, correcting false doctrine, rebuking sin and encouraging persevering faith.

TOP #187: Those who have saving faith cooperate with God’s good works. [PHP 2:12-13] This is a significant reiteration of TOP #150. God works in believers via His Holy Spirit (cf. TOP #28).

TOP #188: The goal of Christian faith is to become blameless. [PHP 2:14-16] Note that being indwelt by the HS does not result in immediate actual perfection, which remains a lifelong goal (as Paul will teach in 3:12).

Thanks. So God is the one who conforms us? Or we ourselves?

 

[GWH]

Thanks. So God is the one who conforms us? Or we ourselves?

God initiates; we cooperate--or not.

The kerygma proclaims GRFS, which calls for repentance and acceptance of Jesus as Lord, which is an all or nothing decision that occurs at one moment in time.

The didache teaches God’s will regarding how saints or those who have been saved should live in order to be a good witness for Christ, which involves learning more of God’s Word throughout one’s lifetime. A passage teaching this truth is Colossians 2:6-7: “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord [kerygma], continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught [didache].”

There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (EPH 2:8-10, 2CR 5:7, RM 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.

 

[Cameron143]

God initiates; we cooperate--or not.

The kerygma proclaims GRFS, which calls for repentance and acceptance of Jesus as Lord, which is an all or nothing decision that occurs at one moment in time.

The didache teaches God’s will regarding how saints or those who have been saved should live in order to be a good witness for Christ, which involves learning more of God’s Word throughout one’s lifetime. A passage teaching this truth is Colossians 2:6-7: “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord [kerygma], continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught [didache].”

There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (EPH 2:8-10, 2CR 5:7, RM 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.

How does our cooperation change us? Only God can change our corrupted image to be like Christ's. Our cooperation will quicken or delay the process, but it cannot effectuate the process.

What ability does man possess to change their fallen, corrupted nature? And if man possessed such an ability, why does he need God to do so?

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

We are to believe and obey the gospel to be saved (Rom. 1:16; 2 Thess. 1:8) and we are to continue to walk in the light (1 Jn. 1:7) and follow Jesus (Jn. 10:27-28) because we have been saved. Without faith, obedience is worthless. I do not believe obedience on its own saves. I believe Jesus saves me as I submit/obey to His authority (Mt. 28:18), looking to Him to save me by submitting/obeying in doing the Father’s will (Mt. 7:21), as I cannot save myself by myself.

Romans 1:16
The gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it.
Romans 10:16...
Isaiah is quoted that obedience to the gospel is what?
Who hath believed our report?

Most will preach Christ's death, burial and resurrection. Few actually provide us with the proper response. In giving the improper response, they are disobeying the Lord.
If He told us once, He told us a hundred times.

To the lost to be saved, the obedience is the command to quit believing in the Jews false religion of keeping the law aka "repent of sins" to use the modern phrase. They were commanded to reconsider, change their minds to believe in Jesus instead.