Which works justify?

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Sep 29, 2024
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George Orwell experienced the dead hand of Communism in Spain. He based his book on that and on wartime Britain.
His thinking on the Spanish Civil War was far more nuanced than that, i read down and out and homage to catalonia in my early teens. He was something of a literary hero to me, think if you're American, you might not know about his antipathy to the BBC. It appears there's still enough umbrage against him at the Beeb, the current Director won't allow a statue of him for being too leftwing.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Well, hundreds of Bible scholars disagree with you, but I would be happy to agree that the term refers to BOTH/AND.
Please find another usage of the term where it refers to Christian Jews?
 

BillyBob

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Dec 20, 2023
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The time of sanctification is a time of growth for the Christian!

During this period of our life we are referred to as the New Man. However, we remain in a constant battle with the Old Man. Beginning with Colossians 3:2 we are told:

2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory. 5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.

Skipping down to 3:12 we are told how the New Man is to live:

12Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. 14 But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection. 15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.

This is a description of how men are to work once renewed. Nowhere are we told that this work is required to save us. In fact, verse 4 above tells us : 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory. (notice, no if conditions). Also in verse 12 above we are told: 12Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved.......... Since you have been renewed do these things!

I do believe that we are called to do good works but they are to be done in thankfulness of what God has been done for us. They are not required to gain or keep our salvation. That work was done by Christ at the cross!
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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Please find another usage of the term where it refers to Christian Jews?
Well, the only other NT usage I found was in MT 19:28 and parallels, where it refers to Israel, but the NIV commentators point to JM 2:1 and 5:7-8 as clearly indicating Christian recipients, so what do you say to that?
 

Believer08

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Jan 27, 2025
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The people whom James and Peter were writing to were the scattered Jewish Christians who were undergoing persecution (Acts 11:19; 1 Peter 1:1).
 

Gideon300

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His thinking on the Spanish Civil War was far more nuanced than that, i read down and out and homage to catalonia in my early teens. He was something of a literary hero to me, think if you're American, you might not know about his antipathy to the BBC. It appears there's still enough umbrage against him at the Beeb, the current Director won't allow a statue of him for being too leftwing.
Orwell (Blair his real name) was an odd mix of philosophies. He was socialist but detested communism. A good deal of 1984 was inspired by the British government of WW2. I'm English, but I've lived in Australia since 1966. BBC is like many tax payer funded media organisations, a mouthpiece for leftist/progressive/woke views. Orwell was a proponent of free speech, something anathema to the authoritarians in charge these days. Orwell would not be creating monuments to the BBC either.

Orwell's life was a mess. He seemed to me to be self destructive. But he was remarkably perceptive and I thought his writing to be clear and easy to follow. No dense prose with obscure words from Orwell.
 
Sep 29, 2024
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126
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Orwell (Blair his real name) was an odd mix of philosophies. He was socialist but detested communism. A good deal of 1984 was inspired by the British government of WW2. I'm English, but I've lived in Australia since 1966. BBC is like many tax payer funded media organisations, a mouthpiece for leftist/progressive/woke views. Orwell was a proponent of free speech, something anathema to the authoritarians in charge these days. Orwell would not be creating monuments to the BBC either.

Orwell's life was a mess. He seemed to me to be self destructive. But he was remarkably perceptive and I thought his writing to be clear and easy to follow. No dense prose with obscure words from Orwell.
Not an odd mix for the time Gideon, i'd say pretty typical. Think some of his later philosophies probably stemmed from guilt, because of his time in Burma as a member of the Indian Imperial Police. He was pretty troubled.
The BBC don't have an independent viewpoint, they are state owned and funded by our taxes. Personally been aware of what's really going down for all my adult life, i wouldn't have added these days to authoritarians in charge. Agree, he wouldn't, which is part of the point i made.
 

mailmandan

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Apr 7, 2014
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When people say “It’s not about what we do, but what Christ did”, this can come across to many as we have nothing at all to do to be saved. To get around this, it is argued that if it’s all about what He did then all would be saved since He died for all (John 3:16)
Believing is not doing nothing (John 3:16) and through believing, we are trusting in Another's work (Christ's finished work of redemption - Romans 3:24-28)

However, let’s see if that phrase “It’s not about what we do, but what Christ did” is a biblical one.
For you it's mainly about what you DO rather than what Christ has already DONE. Be careful! (1 Corinthians 1:18-21)

Titus 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

In those passages, we can see that we did nothing on our own without God to be saved. We did nothing in our own merit/righteousness or works to have Jesus come and save us by His grace.
The washing of regeneration is accomplished by the Holy Spirit at the moment we are saved by grace through faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Acts 15:7-9; Ephesians 2:8)

So, the part “It’s not about what we do” with regard to developing a way of being saved is correct.

However, does this mean there is nothing we must do in order to be saved? Let’s see

Matthew 7:21 - " he who does the will of my father in heaven"
John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Matthew 7:24-27 - "whoever hears these sayings of mine and does them"
As we read on in Matthew 7:24-27, we find two different foundations with two different results, and not salvation by works, as some would suppose. Each house has a different material upon which its foundation is laid, and each house has a different final outcome. One house is built by a wise man upon a rock and it stands. The other is built by a foolish man upon the sand and it collapses.

Those deceived by their own self-righteousness in Matthew 7:22-23 were "outwardly" doing all the things that the righteous would do yet they did not truly know Christ (had no personal relationship with Christ) which stemmed from not truly believing in Him. The rock the wise man builds upon is true righteousness found in Jesus Christ alone. The sand the foolish man builds upon is self-righteousness.

*Only those who truly believe in Him are wise and hear the words of Jesus and properly act on them. *The foolish man twists the words of Jesus and acts on their own self-righteous works system and calls that acting on the words of Jesus.

Mark 10:17 - "Good teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?"

Acts 2:37-38 - "what shall we do?"

Acts 9:6 - "Lord, what do you want me to do?"

Acts 16:30 - "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Jesus showed the rich young ruler how short he falls of keeping even the first commandment (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37) The rich young ruler confidently and (self-righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms. Yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus unto salvation. (John 3:18)

Repentance (faith implied or assumed) is unto the remission of sins (Luke 24:47; Acts 3:19; Acts 5:31; 11:17,18; 26:18) *Hermeneutics.

Suffering for the Lord's sake was what Paul must do. Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.” But that was not the basis or means by which he obtained salvation.

Acts 16:31 - “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” There it is. :)

Romans 5:1-2 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we also have access by faith into this grace…
Yes, justified by faith "apart from additions or modifications" and we also have access by faith "apart from additions or modifications" into grace... Put down your shoehorn and accept the truth.

Gal. 3:24 says justified by faith
Yes, faith "apart from additions or modifications."

How does get into this grace in Romans 5:2? They have to be justified by faith. But how is one be justified by faith? One must be baptized into Christ (Gal. 3:27), and that is where we have access by faith into this grace (Rom. 5:2).
That is your eisegesis. Paul said justified by faith and not justified by water baptism. Believers have been Sprit baptized into the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13) which has nothing to do with Campbell's soup theology/salvation by water baptism.

The only "sense" that one would be "water baptized into Christ" is the same "sense" that the Israelites were "baptized into Moses." (1 Corinthians 10:2) The Israelites were not literally water baptized into the body of Moses and there is little dispute that being "baptized into Moses" signified the open allegiance and public identification of the Israelites with Moses as their leader. Moses was formally recognized as the leader of the covenant people. Water baptism signifies our allegiance and public identification with Christ as our Savior,
 

Believer08

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Jan 27, 2025
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@GWH,
If I’m not mistaken, the twelve tribes were from Jacob’s twelve sons. The twelve sons of Jacob (with Ephraim and Manessah representing Joseph) were collectively known as the twelve tribes of Israel (Ex. 1:1-7; cf. Gen. 35).

When James was writing to the twelve tribes (Jms. 1:1), he was using that phrase in referring to Christians as a whole, (in the metaphorical sense), that the twelve of tribes are the church, spiritual Israel, just as the twelve tribes were physical Israel. It went from physical to spiritual. Twelve tribes in James 1:1 would be referring to Christians who are the church, the spiritual Israel (Rom. 2:28-29; Gal. 6:16; Gal. 3:28).
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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@GWH,
If I’m not mistaken, the twelve tribes were from Jacob’s twelve sons. The twelve sons of Jacob (with Ephraim and Manessah representing Joseph) were collectively known as the twelve tribes of Israel (Ex. 1:1-7; cf. Gen. 35).

When James was writing to the twelve tribes (Jms. 1:1), he was using that phrase in referring to Christians as a whole, (in the metaphorical sense), that the twelve of tribes are the church, spiritual Israel, just as the twelve tribes were physical Israel. It went from physical to spiritual. Twelve tribes in James 1:1 would be referring to Christians who are the church, the spiritual Israel (Rom. 2:28-29; Gal. 6:16; Gal. 3:28).
Yes, and the NIV commentators point to JM 2:1 and 5:7-8 as clearly indicating Christian recipients.
 

Believer08

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Jan 27, 2025
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Yes, and the NIV commentators point to JM 2:1 and 5:7-8 as clearly indicating Christian recipients.
I agree.

Jms. 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Jms. 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

Jms. 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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Which works justify?

No works. None

Justification is 100% by faith, it is a gift.
The gift is the righteousness of Jesus.

100% Christ's righteousness
Zero % ours

We do not add too the perfect robe of righteousness that Christ gives to those written in the book of life.

But how does Jesus judge who is save and who will recieve this gift.

Judgement = few that are saved.

it is not a simple matter of believing in Jesus
Even the devil believes in Jesus.

We are told to eat His flesh and drink His blood.
This is a daily thing, we need to be partaking of Jesus and growing in Jesus.

Read the word and pray, all of these things help us to become new creatures in Christ.
Being born of the Spirit.

Joh 3:5-6 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Joh 6:56-58
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58 This is that bread which came down from heaven.....

As we eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of God, we grow strong in His strength. Our lives are assimilated to His life. Our spirit, our inclinations, our habits, are conformed to the will of God.
We are what we eat.....

If we love Jesus we will obey Him.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
3,753
842
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Which works justify?

No works. None

Justification is 100% by faith, it is a gift.
The gift is the righteousness of Jesus.

100% Christ's righteousness
Zero % ours

We do not add too the perfect robe of righteousness that Christ gives to those written in the book of life.

But how does Jesus judge who is save and who will recieve this gift.

Judgement = few that are saved.

it is not a simple matter of believing in Jesus
Even the devil believes in Jesus.

We are told to eat His flesh and drink His blood.
This is a daily thing, we need to be partaking of Jesus and growing in Jesus.

Read the word and pray, all of these things help us to become new creatures in Christ.
Being born of the Spirit.

Joh 3:5-6 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Joh 6:56-58
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58 This is that bread which came down from heaven.....

As we eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of God, we grow strong in His strength. Our lives are assimilated to His life. Our spirit, our inclinations, our habits, are conformed to the will of God.
We are what we eat.....

If we love Jesus we will obey Him.
Yes, saving belief means loving Jesus as Lord.
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
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Yes, saving belief means loving Jesus as Lord.
Saving belief is TRUSTING Him as Lord and Savior.

Good golly, we don't know how to love UNTIL we are saved and Have been SEALED by the Spirit.

How do you not know this basic truth?

If we are maintaining salvation, working for salvation, losing salvation.......We OBVIOUSLY don't know the LOVE of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Rom 8~~37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
Rom 8~~38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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Does James not say Abraham and Rahab were justified by works?
Faith and works go hand in hand...
James was showing the works that illustrated their faith.

But if we are save by works we can boast..

Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Rom 3:30-31
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

100% grace through faith.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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Australia
Saving belief is TRUSTING Him as Lord and Savior.

Good golly, we don't know how to love UNTIL we are saved and Have been SEALED by the Spirit.

How do you not know this basic truth?

If we are maintaining salvation, working for salvation, losing salvation.......We OBVIOUSLY don't know the LOVE of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Rom 8~~37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
Rom 8~~38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I Thought it was a battle. A continial battle.
A war.
If you teach once saved always saved your teaching a deception.
If you teach that you don't need to do anything to maintain a relationship with Jesus you are teaching a deception.

1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, ....
2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

Kept = continual....

Gal 5:16-17 KJV 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: ....

Sounds like a war.
Rom 7:22-23
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

We need to endure, this isn't simple a matter of receiving God's Spirit once and you are saved. We need to walk in the Spirit day by day, hour by hour.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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Saving belief is TRUSTING Him as Lord and Savior.

Good golly, we don't know how to love UNTIL we are saved and Have been SEALED by the Spirit.

How do you not know this basic truth?

If we are maintaining salvation, working for salvation, losing salvation.......We OBVIOUSLY don't know the LOVE of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Rom 8~~37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
Rom 8~~38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Yes, faith = trust = repent from sin/hate/working for salvation = receive/be sealed by the Holy Spirit who teaches God's Word and loves even atheists through saints as they persevere in cooperating with His will until death and in heaven.