The rapture is close?

[TheDivineWatermark]

so ["EITA" v.23a] having NO PROBLEM AT ALL referring to something "1000 YEARS later," just as that which was named FIRST IN THE LIST (Jesus' OWN resurrection in verse 20[!] [in the PAST from when this was written]) having taken place some "2000 YEARS" prior to the next item LISTED here in this passage [speaking of "resurrection"]

EDIT TO CORRECT: should read... "so ["EITA" v.24a]..."

(not v.23!)





... was typing too fast, my apologies...

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

All passages agree that there is a 3.5 yr period - I do not deny that. What I'm saying is that nowhere in scripture is the GT given a length of 3.5 yrs. That is simply made up.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is, are you saying that you don't believe that what Jesus said in Matthew 24:21 ("For then shall be GREAT tribulation, such as was not since...") is CONNECTED with what Daniel 12:1 states ("At that time... and there shall be a time of trouble [LXX - thlipsis (2x) - tribulation] such as never was since..."),

...and then when the question is asked in verse 6 ("how long shall it be to the END of these wonders?") the response (when examined--considering the Hebrew word for "time / times" and how that factors into their calendar specifically) totals "1260 days"... "a time, times, and an half" (same as in chpt 7, but using HEBREW words specifically here in chpt 12, whereas 7:25 isn't in Hebrew--The Hebrew being very precise, speaking of very specific dates rather than referring something "random' [as far as dates / calendar-matters go]);

And further, v.11 refers to "1290 days" (the ONLY reference Jesus could have been referring back to, in his words of Matt24:15, where He used the phrase "AOD [SINGUAR, SINGULAR]" specifically--Dan12:11 saying "AOD [SINGULAR, SINGULAR] SET UP [H5414]). IOW, chpt 12 is covering the SECOND HALF.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ To go with what I put there,

I found this, under the Aramaic word/words used in Daniel 7:25 (since I mentioned that verse--speaking of the SAME TIME-PERIOD, the SECOND HALF): SEE under the heading "Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon" at this BlueLetterBible link - H5732 - ʿidān - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (kjv)

...and under Number 2 under the heading "Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon" at same link.





[Rev12 also speaks to this SAME time-frame... in both vv.6 and 14, referring back to what Jesus had instructed in Matthew 24:16, referring to the MID-point!]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Let me just add that, the final set of seven years (including its parts) would be factored the SAME WAY that the FIRST "69 Weeks" were factored. Because they are a PART of the TOTAL ("Seventy SEVENS" = 490y...).

And the "seventy YEARS" (a DISTINCT matter) spoken of in the EARLIER part of Dan9, actually totaled something like 69y and a day (don't quote me on the "total" coz I forget what the duration was EXACTLY, off the top of my head), DUE TO "who was reigning when" and all that. This is how "the WISE [of Israel]" (Dan12:10) will KNOW, when they find themselves IN the future Trib yrs / the final set of "7 years" / "ONE Week".

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Paul covers ALL SEVEN YEARS in his 2Th2 chapter, btw (not merely HALF of that, as many suppose).

 

[tharkun]

I guess what I'm trying to get at is, are you saying that you don't believe that what Jesus said in Matthew 24:21 ("For then shall be GREAT tribulation, such as was not since...") is CONNECTED with what Daniel 12:1 states ("At that time... and there shall be a time of trouble [LXX - thlipsis (2x) - tribulation] such as never was since..."),

...and then when the question is asked in verse 6 ("how long shall it be to the END of these wonders?") the response (when examined--considering the Hebrew word for "time / times" and how that factors into their calendar specifically) totals "1260 days"... "a time, times, and an half" (same as in chpt 7, but using HEBREW words specifically here in chpt 12, whereas 7:25 isn't in Hebrew--The Hebrew being very precise, speaking of very specific dates rather than referring something "random' [as far as dates / calendar-matters go]);

And further, v.11 refers to "1290 days" (the ONLY reference Jesus could have been referring back to, in his words of Matt24:15, where He used the phrase "AOD [SINGUAR, SINGULAR]" specifically--Dan12:11 saying "AOD [SINGULAR, SINGULAR] SET UP [H5414]). IOW, chpt 12 is covering the SECOND HALF.

No, I believe Matt 24 and Dan 12 are connected; but Dan 12:6 is speaking of all the wonders, not just the GT. The GT is but a single event that happens within the 3.5 yr timeframe. Does that make sense? I don't see how the GT can be 'cut short' if it was established hundreds of years earlier to be 3.5 yrs. Those don't reconcile to me.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

don't see how the GT can be 'cut short' if it was established hundreds of years earlier to be 3.5 yrs. Those don't reconcile to me.

Right.

But again, here's how I understand that "G2856" word (used 2x) in Matthew 24:22 - "curtail / curtailed"...

...related to the following:


[quoting from BibleHub]

NAS Exhaustive Concordance

Word Origin
from a derivation of the same as kolazó [G2849]

Definition
to curtail


[and so... G2849...]

HELPS Word-studies

2849 kolázō – properly, to dwarf, mutilate (curtail); used of punishing slaves to incapacitate them; hence, to punish (cause agony) to curtail ("dock/check," Abbott-Smith), i.e. in a way that restrains (impedes, restricts).

[end quoting; bold mine; -- https://biblehub.com/greek/2856.htm ; https://biblehub.com/greek/2849.htm ]



It just means that Jesus' RETURN will put an end to it ("CURTAIL")... if He didn't, no one would survive it because it'll be THAT BAD.







[Same general idea being conveyed in 2Th2:8b regarding what occurs at the END of the seven years; whereas v.8a (and related verses in this passage) speaks to what occurs at the START of the seven years (not its MIDDLE, as many suppose--that's in v.4b!); All RELATED passages agree, time-wise / sequence-wise]

 

[tharkun]

But it also has the meaning of shorten. You can't shorten something that wasn't longer to begin with. How long was it before it was shortened?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Maybe this helps too [??]: the first use of this word (v.22) is "aorist" ("if not had been shortened / curtailed") [does that wording sound kinda "pre-existing-like"? lol (by that I mean, already having been prophesied to this length)];
whereas the second use of this word (v.22) is "future tense" (meaning, what has been prophesied WILL take place that way)- https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/24-22.htm

 

[tharkun]

No, I don't see how that helps at all. At best, it points to the knowledge that the Father has that the Son doesn't; since Jesus says He doesn't know the day or hour. If it were 3.5 yrs, everyone will know when His coming is.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ After Jesus' ascension, HE KNEW PERFECTLY, and some 60 years LATER (95ad) was given by God TO DISCLOSE *THAT VERY THING* in ""The Revelation OF JESUS CHRIST which GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [/JESUS] to SHEW unto His servants things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]..." (i.e. the 7 year period; which "SHEW" begins in 4:1 ["...I will SHEW you..."]; see also 1:19c regarding this).

So yes, when He walked this earth He didn't "know [PERFECT indicative]" (Matt24:36 and parallel verses); But "PERFECT indicative ["know"]" is NOT saying "no one WILL nor CAN EVER know" (that is to INJECT something NOT being expressed in this text--many folks do that).




[Matt24:36's Subject is His Second Coming TO THE EARTH Rev19--and the Book of Rev can be plotted out ON A CALENDAR, per the info He supplied therein--so YES! those finding themselves IN the Trib years OUGHT TO "KNOW"!! (no text states otherwise!)]

 

[Psalm1]

Deuteronomy 13: 1 - 3
1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,

2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;

3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.



Incorrect, the Saints shall inherit the Earth, you ain't going to heaven. Only satan desires a rapture.

The Rapture is the gathering of the bride. it is vividly depicted in Matthew 25, the parable of the virgins.
it is impossible to miss, and yes there is a devil ,and he definitely hates the bride. Jesus loves the bride and he is coming for her.
Jesus said his coming (Rapture) is pretrib. ( second coming to earth is postrib/wrath as vividly depicted in Revelation 19)
That is Jesus words.
Why do saints seek to change it?

So you're theory is way way off.

 

[tharkun]

^ After Jesus' ascension, HE KNEW PERFECTLY, and some 60 years LATER (95ad) was given by God TO DISCLOSE *THAT VERY THING* in ""The Revelation OF JESUS CHRIST which GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [/JESUS] to SHEW unto His servants things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]..." (i.e. the 7 year period; which "SHEW" begins in 4:1 ["...I will SHEW you..."]; see also 1:19c regarding this).

So yes, when He walked this earth He didn't "know [PERFECT indicative]" (Matt24:36 and parallel verses); But "PERFECT indicative ["know"]" is NOT saying "no one WILL nor CAN EVER know" (that is to INJECT something NOT being expressed in this text--many folks do that).

But that only begs the question of where in Revelation is the GT equated with 3.5 yrs?

 

[Psalm1]

1 Thessalonians 4:17 which states, "Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord

And what a blessing that will be.
Jesus said that coming is pretrib.
When Jesus comes after the tribulation or wrath. Or whatever you wanna call it, it will be on millions of the white horses. There is no rapture at that time. So that alone eliminates everything but a pre tribulation rapture

 

[Psalm1]

The key word is MEET

When you meet up someone then the next question should be where we going from there? Remember the angel said Jesus will come again likewise so his feet needs to touch the mount of Olives.
Acts 1: 9 - 12
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
Remember Jesus LEFT Heaven and the Saints rushed to meet him in the air but Jesus feet still needs to touch the mount of Olives and when he comes he coming with power as the LION of the tribe of Judah and he is making war with his Saints.

Zecahariah 14: 1 - 5, 9
1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Where did GOD get all these Saints from? It's simple they met him in the air that you pointed out in 1 Thessalonians 4. Now we not done yet this is best part.

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

Man that's beautiful, that's we pray THY KINGDOM COME. Tired of these corrupt politicians, Earth will finally have the Saviour as our ruler. Praise the LORD. amen.

You posted 2 separate comings.
Acts 1 setting is exactly opposite of a post tribulation appearing of Jesus.
When Jesus was taken up, in Acts 1, the setting was exactly opposite of what you are asserting

 

[Psalm1]

WEll I don't have dreams very often but when I do it is wise to pay attention to them as long as you know it was from God. but yeah as far as prophets go I have yet to find a real one to listen to and oddly most of them say the same things you would think they would say something more profound but no it is just the same stuff and then they end up wrong.

Scripture undeniably depicts three "comings".
One pre trib, one prewrath (midtrib) and 1 post "tribulation or wrath". Or whatever you wanna call it.

Those verses are not going anywhere

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

But that only begs the question of where in Revelation is the GT equated with 3.5 yrs?

I already pointed out... at the bottom of my Post #103... Jesus had said, "when you shall SEE... the AOD... FLEE" [see what I did there? ](speaking to "them which be in Judaea"), this CORRESPONDS with what is stated in Rev12:6 and 14 ("FLY" and "FLED"), which two verses SUPPLY a specific set of DAY-AMOUNTS ("1260 days" and "a time, times, and half a time" [like Dan12:1,6-7 and Dan7:25[,20b-21 (parallel Rev13:5-7), 22 (parallel Rev20:4a), 27 (Rev19, etc)];

and yeah, I believe the RESPONSE (in Dan12:6's Q of "how long to the end of THESE wonders) refers back to what was commenced in verse 1, i.e. the SECOND HALF (what Jesus is calling "for THEN SHALL BE *GREAT* TRIBULATION..." and what Rev7:14 says of it, "coming out-of the tribulation THE GREAT" (in contrast to Mattt24:9's "[deliver you up to] tribulation" which occurs in the FIRST HALF, associated with vv.4-8's "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS" (Paul, using the SAME Grk word [but in the SINGULAR], says the DOTL ARRIVES "exactly like" the FIRST ONE OF THOSE! 1Th5:1-3), aka "the SEALS" at the START of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN; Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1]" time period, aka the "7 yrs / 70th Week."





[Dan11:36-37 corresponds to the "WHOSE COMING/ADVENT/ARRIVAL is after the working of Satan..." in Paul's 2Th2 passage (same description is spelled out in both passages); so pertains to the FIRST HALF (its START, in particular... that is, Seal #1)]

 

[tharkun]

Rev 12 only deals with the time that Israel is protected in hiding; it doesn't speak to the length of the GT. If Israel is protected during that time, logically then she can't be subject to the GT as Christians will be.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Rev 12 only deals with the time that Israel is protected in hiding; it doesn't speak to the length of the GT. If Israel is protected during that time, logically then she can't be subject to the GT as Christians will be.

Recall that the INSTRUCTION Jesus gave (to "FLEE") was specifically "to them which be IN JUDAEA" (not to Israel all over the world, FROM WHERE they will be "gathered ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel" [into ONE PLACE upon the earth: "to worship the Lord in the holy mount, AT JERUSALEM") gathered [from having been "judicially SCATTERED"] by angels "HE SHALL SEND" to do so, per Matthew 24:29-31 [END OF TRIB / AFTER TRIB] parallel Isaiah 27:9,12-13 at the "GREAT trumpet" [distinct] See also Rom11:27/Dan9:24 [re: Israel]--This is NOT a "rapture/SNATCH [G726]")

 

[Blain]

And what a blessing that will be.
Jesus said that coming is pretrib.
When Jesus comes after the tribulation or wrath. Or whatever you wanna call it, it will be on millions of the white horses. There is no rapture at that time. So that alone eliminates everything but a pre tribulation rapture

A person I was trying to help said that God audibly said to him he is coming back, this person wanted to know how to get him to speak audibly to him again because he had questions but I know this person is genuine.
personally I don't have any particular stance on the timing of the rapture I just keep myself prepared for any outcome