Is having faith/belief obeying?

Inquisitor · Thursday at 3:14 PM

Nice that you have invented some terminology for your erroneous understanding. I had exposure to the financial investment world, so we used to refer to some similar concepts as front-end loaded or back-end loaded.

Sure, my core beliefs are off, says the person who can't explain the foundational meaning of "Christ" using a short Psalm evangelistically directed by Christ's Apostle Paul, and now can't see things I've paraphrased by taking directly from 1Pet1.

Though I'll always be learning, I'm not confused re: entrance into God's Salvation Plan which some label justification and then abiding and growing in God's Salvation Plan which some label ongoing or experiential or progressive sanctification. Please do note that I'm purposely referring to both of these as parts of Salvation, because this is how Scripture speaks of Salvation.

What you're confused about is in part thinking in terms of theological constructs - manmade labels - while overriding Scripture.

Let's face it, you cannot read Psalm2 and explain who and what "Christ" is, and now you cannot read 1Pet1 and see how much Peter includes in regard to the things I stated. Re: both Ps2 and 1Pet1 you've imported external concepts into both of them. With such a practice, of course you'll find something off when someone remains tight with the Text. Your eisegesis vs. any exegesis don't mix.

One of the problems in our time is that so many are oriented to thinking in terms of various theological traditions - which is in part just the outgrowth of what Paul spoke about in 1Cor3 re: personal favoritism - and are not well-versed in Scripture. This problem of Scriptural illiteracy has been on the radar and under discussion for many, many decades if not centuries. You seem to have come out of Rome and ended up in anti-Rome that took you too far. Now you need to let Scripture bring you back to Truth.

I'm happy to go back to Ps2 or now to 1Pet1 verse by verse to point out some things but you'll have to find some objectivity I don't know you're capable of at this point. If we do so, I'm going to be asking more questions along the way.

Acts 2:21
And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised
Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:13
For “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Are these verses true of not?

studier · Thursday at 3:29 PM

Cameron143 said:

This too has been asked and answered along the way but I lose track of where. See here which was discussion with you and here which was elsewhere. Hopefully the links work. If not, then I'll try to fix them on this (with the short editing time) or another post. Note on one of these where I pull the definition of "work out" from an English dictionary and how it defines the phrase similarly with accomplish by work.

Here are the 4 different lexical definitions from BDAG Lexicon without all the research data:

Bauer-Danker, Greek-English Lexicon of the NT (BDAG)

[BDAG] κατεργάζομαι (katergazomai)

1. to bring about a result by doing someth., achieve, accomplish, do τὶ someth.
2. to cause a state or condition, bring about, produce, create
3. to cause to be well prepared, prepare someone
4. to be successful in the face of obstacles, overpower, subdue, conquer

Now, please remember when looking at these definitions that the Christian is commanded to do this with God providing capability. Do you like any of the 4 choices better than another? Why? And before you pick one of the suggested translations (non-bold words) please consider the bold definitions.

Cameron143 · Thursday at 3:38 PM

studier said:

This too has been asked and answered along the way but I lose track of where. See here which was discussion with you and here which was elsewhere. Hopefully the links work. If not, then I'll try to fix them on this (with the short editing time) or another post. Note on one of these where I pull the definition of "work out" from an English dictionary and how it defines the phrase similarly with accomplish by work.

Here are the 4 different lexical definitions from BDAG Lexicon without all the research data:

Bauer-Danker, Greek-English Lexicon of the NT (BDAG)

[BDAG] κατεργάζομαι (katergazomai)

1. to bring about a result by doing someth., achieve, accomplish, do τὶ someth.
2. to cause a state or condition, bring about, produce, create
3. to cause to be well prepared, prepare someone
4. to be successful in the face of obstacles, overpower, subdue, conquer

Now, please remember when looking at these definitions that the Christian is commanded to do this with God providing capability. Do you like any of the 4 choices better than another? Why? And before you pick one of the suggested translations (non-bold words) please consider the bold definitions.

I'll get back to you after verifying the word and researching definitions.

GWH · Thursday at 3:40 PM

Cameron143 said:

Glad we agree!
(GWA :^)

studier · Thursday at 3:45 PM

Inquisitor said:

I'm not sure I'll be up for starting this discussion all over again, so I'll begin here. Yes, those verses are true, but we may have to discuss some verb tenses and look at the light of more Scripture to make sure we understand them in the light of the full scope of the Gospel of God re: Jesus Christ.

How about these verses, are they true?

NTFE Phil2:12-13 So, my dear people: you always did what I said, so please now carry on in the same way, not just as though I was there with you, but much more because I’m not! Your task now is to work at bringing about your own salvation; and naturally you’ll be taking this with utter seriousness. 13 After all, God himself is the one who’s at work among you, who provides both the will and the energy to enable you to do what pleases him. Philippians 2 NTFE - Unity in everything - So if our shared - Bible Gateway

NTFE 1Cor15:1-2 Let me remind you, brothers and sisters, about the good news which I announced to you. You received this good news, and you’re standing firm on it, 2 and you are saved through it, if you hold fast the message I announced to you—unless it was for nothing that you believed! 1 Corinthians 15 NTFE - The gospel of the Messiah, crucified, - Bible Gateway

studier · Thursday at 3:47 PM

Cameron143 said:

Please make certain you provide reference information for any resources you refer to. I can't link you to BDAG as to my knowledge it's not public domain.

Cameron143 · Thursday at 3:52 PM

studier said:

That won't be the source I'm using, but I will share where I get my definition.

studier · Thursday at 3:55 PM

Cameron143 said:

previous link here

studier · Thursday at 3:57 PM

Cameron143 said:

other link here previous discussion with you

Cameron143 · Thursday at 4:05 PM

studier said:

Thanks

mailmandan · Thursday at 4:08 PM

Inquisitor said:

There are 3 tenses to salvation that often get confused by works-salvationists.

1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification)
2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing or progressive sanctification)
3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

mailmandan · Thursday at 5:18 PM

Cameron143 said:

Notice in Philippians 2:12 that Paul said to "work out" your salvation and NOT "work for" your salvation. When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not to get a body. Farmers "work out" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have. The Greek verb rendered "work out" means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification, which is the result of being set apart for God's work and involves the process of being conformed to the image of Christ.

This conforming to Christ involves the work of the person, but it is still God working in the believer who has already been justified by faith. In verse 13, Paul goes on to say, "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." Ongoing or progressive sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ. (Romans 5:1) Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, ongoing sanctification is a process.

In regard to "fear and trembling," it pertains to a healthy fear of offending God through disobedience and a righteous awe and respect or reverence for Him. (Proverbs 1:7; Psalm 2:11; Psalm 34:9; Isaiah 66:2) Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago, I basically saw God as a tyrant who couldn't wait to punish me every time I messed up and throw me into hell for not being "good enough." That is an unhealthy fear of bondage and insecurity which is not from above!

Paul uses the same phrase "fear and trembling" in 2 Corinthians 7:15 in which he refers to Titus as being encouraged by the reception of him by the Corinthians "with fear and trembling," that is, with humility and respect for his position as a minister of Jesus Christ. In 1 Corinthians 2:3, we see that Paul himself came to the Corinthian church in "weakness and fear, and with much trembling" in regard to the huge responsibility and critical importance of the work in which he was engaged.

Cameron143 · Thursday at 5:51 PM

mailmandan said:

Notice in Philippians 2:12 that Paul said to "work out" your salvation and NOT "work for" your salvation. When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not to get a body. Farmers "work out" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have. The Greek verb rendered "work out" means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification, which is the result of being set apart for God's work and involves the process of being conformed to the image of Christ.

This conforming to Christ involves the work of the person, but it is still God working in the believer who has already been justified by faith. In verse 13, Paul goes on to say, "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." Ongoing or progressive sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ. (Romans 5:1) Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, ongoing sanctification is a process.

In regard to "fear and trembling," it pertains to a healthy fear of offending God through disobedience and a righteous awe and respect or reverence for Him. (Proverbs 1:7; Psalm 2:11; Psalm 34:9; Isaiah 66:2) Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago, I basically saw God as a tyrant who couldn't wait to punish me every time I messed up and throw me into hell for not being "good enough." That is an unhealthy fear of bondage and insecurity which is not from above!

Paul uses the same phrase "fear and trembling" in 2 Corinthians 7:15 in which he refers to Titus as being encouraged by the reception of him by the Corinthians "with fear and trembling," that is, with humility and respect for his position as a minister of Jesus Christ. In 1 Corinthians 2:3, we see that Paul himself came to the Corinthian church in "weakness and fear, and with much trembling" in regard to the huge responsibility and critical importance of the work in which he was engaged.

I was reading Lloyd Jones earlier. His take was to furnish or fill out. Like the farmer who works the land, the homeowner furnishes the house. The house itself already has been provided.

DJT_47 · Thursday at 7:29 PM

No, it's not obedience, but rather a conviction of the heart.

Rom 10:9

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved

Inquisitor · Thursday at 8:44 PM

studier said:

I'm not sure I'll be up for starting this discussion all over again, so I'll begin here. Yes, those verses are true, but we may have to discuss some verb tenses and look at the light of more Scripture to make sure we understand them in the light of the full scope of the Gospel of God re: Jesus Christ.

How about these verses, are they true?

NTFE Phil2:12-13 So, my dear people: you always did what I said, so please now carry on in the same way, not just as though I was there with you, but much more because I’m not! Your task now is to work at bringing about your own salvation; and naturally you’ll be taking this with utter seriousness. 13 After all, God himself is the one who’s at work among you, who provides both the will and the energy to enable you to do what pleases him. Philippians 2 NTFE - Unity in everything - So if our shared - Bible Gateway

NTFE 1Cor15:1-2 Let me remind you, brothers and sisters, about the good news which I announced to you. You received this good news, and you’re standing firm on it, 2 and you are saved through it, if you hold fast the message I announced to you—unless it was for nothing that you believed! 1 Corinthians 15 NTFE - The gospel of the Messiah, crucified, - Bible Gateway

Keep reading your second quotation (1 Corinthians 15:1-2) again and again.

JBTN · Thursday at 9:55 PM

studier said:

I don’t believe Jesus was saying that belief is a godly work they can do.
I believe Jesus was saying that God was working to testify that Jesus was his son in an effort to get them to believe.
I seems pretty obvious that the people who heard Jesus’s answer in John 6:29 thought that was what he said too.

“They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?”
‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭30‬ ‭KJV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/1/jhn.6.30.KJV

Cameron143 · Thursday at 10:07 PM

studier said:

I Googled Strong's Concordance for " work out" in Philippians 2:12.
Results:
Meaning
Strong's Concordance defines "katergazomai" as "to bring about a result by doing something, to achieve, to accomplish, to do".
Context
The verse in Philippians 2:12 says, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling..."
Interpretation
The phrase "work out" in this context is not about earning salvation, but rather about actively pursuing and living out the salvation believers already have in Christ.

I also recommend you checking out Martyn Lloyd Jones sermon on the subject. Another great sermon titled The Power of Christ Within on John 1:16 preached February 16, 1964 you might find helpful.

Inquisitor · Thursday at 11:20 PM

Look for the word "believes" in the verses below.

John 3:15
So that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:18
The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

John 3:36
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:35
Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; the one who comes to Me will not be hungry, and the one who believes in Me will never be thirsty.

John 3:18
The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

John 6:40
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who believes has eternal life.

John 7:38
The one who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water'.

John 11:25
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; the one who believes in Me will live, even if he dies,

John 11:26
And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law

John 12:44
Now Jesus cried out and said, “The one who believes in Me, does not believe only in Me, but also in Him who sent Me.

John 12:46
I have come as Light into the world, so that no one who believes in Me will remain in darkness.

John 14:12
Truly, truly I say to you, the one who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I am going to the Father.

1 Corinthians 1:21
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

1 Corinthians 2:2
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

Melach · 2025-03-07T04:47:57-0500

salvation is a gift. grace is a gift.

no grace no obedience.

GWH · 2025-03-07T05:47:56-0500

Melach said:

and no obedience, no grace/salvation

Is having faith/belief obeying?

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