Dual Covenant Theology
- Thread starter Strangelove
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Don't the Israelites have a continual covenant with the Most High that continues into every generation. Us as gentiles are crafted into this covenant through Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour.
Right...I'm asking if theres people who believe the 'jews' today have a seperate covenant.
D
DiscipleWilliam
Guest
Separate as in what? I would say yes, God still does have a covenant with the Hebrew Israelite's. I believe that the problem lies in not properly recognizing who the true Hebrew Israelite's really are because some claim to be Hebrew Israelite's but are really of the synagogue of Satan.
1
1still_waters
Guest
Just quoting the Bible. If anyone has issues, take it up with God.
Below we see.
1.A new covenant given to the Jews.
2.We see Gentiles grafted in.
3. The abolition of the distinction between Jew and Gentile.
4. Not all who call themselves Jews are really Jews. You must accept the new covenant.
1. A new covenant given to the Jews.
Hebrews 8
3 Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. 5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”[a] 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:
“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”[c]
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
2. Gentiles grafted in.
Romans 11
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
3. Abolition of distinction between Jew and Gentile.
Ephesians 2
11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
4. Not all who call themselves Jews are really Jews. They must accept the new covenant.
Romans 2
28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.
Romans 3
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
Below we see.
1.A new covenant given to the Jews.
2.We see Gentiles grafted in.
3. The abolition of the distinction between Jew and Gentile.
4. Not all who call themselves Jews are really Jews. You must accept the new covenant.
1. A new covenant given to the Jews.
Hebrews 8
3 Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. 5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”[a] 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:
“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”[c]
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
2. Gentiles grafted in.
Romans 11
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
3. Abolition of distinction between Jew and Gentile.
Ephesians 2
11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
4. Not all who call themselves Jews are really Jews. They must accept the new covenant.
Romans 2
28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.
Romans 3
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
Last edited:
1
1still_waters
Guest
Ok above I'm quoting the Bible, but if you have issues it may be due to my omission of some texts. So if you have issues take it up with my possible omissions and me. 
so there we go.
any nary a word of a dispensation of 1,000 years when something else happens.
D
DiscipleWilliam
Guest
I believe that it's important to comprehend the distinction between ethnic Israel (descendants of Jacob), and spiritual Israel (spiritually elect including both Jew and Gentile). Regarding the spiritually elect, there is no difference between Jew and Gentile meaning there should not be a prejudice of the Jew over the Gentile for they have the same LORD (Romans 10:12).
Gal 3:28 states, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." This is saying that they are all one IN Christ Jesus. Whenever Scripture makes no distinction between Jew and Gentile it is referring to the spiritually elect. However, ethnically, there IS a difference between Jew and Gentile because there were covenants made with ethnic Israel specifically as evidenced in the Old Testament that were not made with the Gentiles. The New Covenant was a fulfillment of the former and a broadening of the grace bestowed by the Most High however The Most High didn't abandon his covenants with ethnic completely, we should not think this to be so. The evil that is perpetuated against the ethnic Israel will come back upon the heads of the oppressors.
The Gentiles are not to boast among the branches (cf. Romans 11) because it is by God's mercy and grace that they were grafted in at all.
Deu 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
Deu 7:7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
Deu 7:8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
Deu 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
Deu 7:10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.
Gal 3:28 states, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." This is saying that they are all one IN Christ Jesus. Whenever Scripture makes no distinction between Jew and Gentile it is referring to the spiritually elect. However, ethnically, there IS a difference between Jew and Gentile because there were covenants made with ethnic Israel specifically as evidenced in the Old Testament that were not made with the Gentiles. The New Covenant was a fulfillment of the former and a broadening of the grace bestowed by the Most High however The Most High didn't abandon his covenants with ethnic completely, we should not think this to be so. The evil that is perpetuated against the ethnic Israel will come back upon the heads of the oppressors.
The Gentiles are not to boast among the branches (cf. Romans 11) because it is by God's mercy and grace that they were grafted in at all.
Deu 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
Deu 7:7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
Deu 7:8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
Deu 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
Deu 7:10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.
1
1still_waters
Guest
Paul made the distinction between spiritual and ethnic Jews, to tell his people that the ethnicity isn't the issue. Yet your post above tries to undo what Paul was saying.
Paul's point is that being an ethnic Jew isn't going to save you. His point is God DID fulfill his covenant to ethnic Jews in Jesus and they better accept that.
What you're trying to do is undo the uniting of the two that Jesus did.
God IS keeping his covenant to ethnic Jews. He did it in Christ. If they don't accept then they are cut off.
God isn't carrying out two promises. One to some spiritual Jews and one to some ethnic Jews.
So there is a totally seperate covenant?
There are 2 active covenants?
One for true Hebrew Israelites and a different one for gentiles?
Like, the Hebrews can still keep the law of Moses and God will deal with them or summink?
1
1still_waters
Guest
Hebrews 8
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
D
DiscipleWilliam
Guest
According to the principles of logic, this is what's called a 'false dichotomy.' You are arbitrarily reducing a set of many possibilities to only two. I don't know how many covenants God has literally made to mankind. There are covenants that deal with physical parcels (land), spiritual covenants, ethnic covenants, governmental covenants etc. You cannot limit the number of covenants to just two. There are many active covenants that are running parallel to one another for the overall will of God.
D
DiscipleWilliam
Guest
I believe that the entire chapter of Romans 8 should be cited because it helps to give a better understanding of 'why' the first one is obsolete. The first testament is declared obsolete because the first was not faultless, and Christ has obtained a ministry that is much more excellent than the previous. However, the only way an older testament can be legally superseded is if the new testament creator (God) specifically stipulates that each covenant made in the former is addressed and fulfilled and/or negated. He did do this to many old testament covenants but not to all.
This is why Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior said in Matthew 5:17- “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
Jesus Christs' main purpose was to fulfill the former Testament in the New in which doing so He negated certain stipulations that were specifically made to ethnic Israel but they were not abandoned entirely, nor were all of their covenants abandoned.
1
1still_waters
Guest
You're trying to negate what the Bible clearly says. The Bible clearly negates what you're saying.
D
DiscipleWilliam
Guest
We are saved by grace through faith. This is how it has always been. The elect are the true sons and daughters of God who have been resurrected unto newness of life. Christs' atoning sacrifice was needed to expunge the outstanding sin debt that the elect incur (propitiation) both past, present, and future.
Ephesians 2:8- For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Acts 4:12- And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
Yes. It is the same for everyone.
Excellent. But its kinda new coz now faith in CHRIST is involved right?
Can we call this the New Covenant?
(Hebrews 12:24) And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
D
DiscipleWilliam
Guest
True, it is a New Testament. However, Christ (the Word of God) has always existed, its just that His physical ministry which focused upon the atoning sacrifice had a physical beginning in time and space. I would also argue that the elect of God -in regards to the Jews specifically in the OT- had faith in Christ (messiah) also regarding the ones whom the LORD God revealed Himself to. The Holy Spirit is what ultimately gives illumination regarding who God is and His will for our lives and the Holy Spirit was clearly manifested in the Old Testament. The OT Jews had faith in a messiah. I say this because to realize the severity of sin to a Holy Creator is to realize the necessity of a Savior for sin. The trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) is infinitely connected, not only in their relationship with one another, but also in the life of the believer or elect, whether OT or NT. The main difference between the OT and NT is that one was a foreshadowing and the other was a fulfillment. So naturally, there were/are specific differences within both, however, it is because of both that we have what we do. If a person is not recognizing the One in the OT there is something wrong. This is a major reason why Jesus so harshly rebuked the Jews of His day because of the blindness and hypocrisy that had enveloped the masses regarding sound doctrine and how far they digressed from where they came from.
Last edited:
For those who think there's still an unfulfilled covenant with "ethnic" Jews...
I'd like to see verification of bloodlines for modern Israelis as true ethnic descendants of Abraham. Even under a Dispensational system that negates faith and the atoning Christological sacrifice for sin as the ONLY means of salvation; the only qualifiers for the Abrahamic covenant would be those of actual ancestral descent. Why is the entire nation of modern Israel included in the dual covenant error? Fallacy within fallacy.
I'd like to see verification of bloodlines for modern Israelis as true ethnic descendants of Abraham. Even under a Dispensational system that negates faith and the atoning Christological sacrifice for sin as the ONLY means of salvation; the only qualifiers for the Abrahamic covenant would be those of actual ancestral descent. Why is the entire nation of modern Israel included in the dual covenant error? Fallacy within fallacy.