Continuationism vs cessastionism?

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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
O Kathy, no cheap shot, just think it is fruitless, half the time it just comes across game over, it ceased period.
Faith is "another doctrine", still can't understand that one.
What's there to study and why, isms and ists and ology just starts the head spin.

Where's the good news, the heart of the gospel in it that's all.
Pharasies spent centuries searching the scriptures studying it and when Jesus come they missed the heart of the message because it didn't fit in with their theology.

I'm tired Kathy, so tired that the "doctrine" of Jesus Christ is second to Paul. Do you notice how much time is spent in the epistles as opposed to the Gospels??

No disrespect to you or any other just gets tiring for me. I study Gods word that relates to law/ grace, and more so love being the foundation that keeps it all together.

Sorry if iv offended, not my intention, just gets a bit frustrating after two months of round round the mountain.

alex.
this is a thread on a critical issue.
thought through, it calls into question the very authority of the scriptures themselves and questions God's Plan.

if there is a thread on the Gospels, i'll be there.

Jesus takes a back seat to Paul?

uh......another cheap shot.

some of us care about these issues and do not consider them small.
there is HUGE division in the church over thousands of new prophets and apostles.

thats what continuationism teaches.

i'll give you the short answer:

THE BIBLE NEVER EVER EVER teaches continuation of nor restoration of the foundational REVELATORY OFFICES AND GIFTS.

God was revealing our NT.

DONE. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.

now we have a raft of MEN IN THE CHURCH. MY LORD'S CHURCH, who are claiming the authority He gave His firstfruits.

that may tire you.....IT MAKES ME ANGRY.

IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE WAY IT GOES ON THESE THREADS ALEX THERES ONLY ONE REMEDY FOR THAT.

me, i will stand against it
 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
So it brings me back to my initial point. This can't be about simple natural learning of languages, because someone who has learned a language doesn't need God to reveal to them what they just said.
the language gifts were also revelatory.
it was almost all new doctrine.

if one had a gift of languages, that man knew what was being revealed....but if he spoke in the new language and no one else there understood it, the man was to keep silent, and commune with God on the revelation.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
I personally don't have an issue with Sola Scriptura if it is applied properly. I believe that Scripture is the unchangeable standard. Nothing is to be added nor should anything be taken away.

However, the vast majority of those who profess Sola Scriptura has adopted doctrines which both add to and take away from the Scriptures. You all have added an Apostolic Era which the bible never once alludes to either prophetically or historically. Seeing as you claim that this Apostolic Era is over, you claim that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are no longer relevant which is basically taking away from the scriptures.

Cessationists are violators of Sola Scriptura, not Continuationists.
Do you believe that there were 12 apostles..picked special to lay the foundation of the church?
Different than anyone else? Never to be needed again? So special there will be.....this is the New Jerusalem..

can you give a comment on this verse:


Revelation 21:14-27
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
Jesus did prophecy the work and the deaths of the Apostles
So there is plenty of that
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
No one claims to be receiving extra - biblical anything, never have. If anything is extra biblical, it's your belief in a past Apostolic era which no one can provide one iota of scriptural proof to support.

The problem here is that you all have the wrong idea of what prophecy is. Prophecy should always enforce scripture not contradict it. Prophecy is and always has been a tool used by God to hold leadership accountable to God's word.

WHAT?
oh my.......the NAR OT appropriation of 'Thus saith The Lord of Hosts'.

only problem is, we got A NEW PRIESTHOOD.
and only one King.

The Priest and King does not need prophets to keep Him accountable.

He has appointed pastors and elders to care for His flock, under-shepherds.

"Prophecy is and always has been a tool used by God to hold leadership accountable to God's word"

really?


...to interpret Ephesians 4:11 as a call for a restoration of the office of apostle of Christ is not only a mistake in exegesis, it opens the door to heresy. To claim that the church today needs visions and revelations through modern apostles and prophets of Christ is to deny the sufficiency of the Bible (2 Tim. 3:16 ) and to place the church at the mercy of false apostles, the likes of whom the apostle Paul warned us about in no uncertain terms (2 Cor. 11:13-15 ).

The Faulty Foundation of the Five-Fold Ministry


It has recently become popular to speak of "the five-fold ministry," a system of church government with apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. The neo-Pentecostal "Restoration" movement and its offshoot, "kingdom now" teaching, claims that one of the things which God is "restoring" to the church is this five-fold ministry. The sole prooftext used to support this concept is Ephesians 4:11-13
, which states that Christ gave "some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,...until we all attain to the unity of the faith and the full knowledge of the Son of God." The word "until," it is argued, proves that the church today needs apostles and prophets as much as evangelists, pastors, and teachers. However, it is the "building up" of the church (v.12) which must continue until the church is mature, not all five of the offices listed in verse 11. This is clear when the whole text is read as follows: "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers; [these offices were given] to equip the saints for the work of service, [which work has as its goal] to build up the body of Christ until we all attain to the unity of the faith..." The offices of apostle and prophet would naturally cease in the church once their role in "equipping the saints" was completed; that is, once the New Testament canon was completed.

Some have objected that there is no reason to bracket off the apostles and prophets from the other three offices listed in verse 11. However, in the very same epistle, Paul states that the church has "been built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets" (Eph. 2:20
) and that Christ's mystery concerning the church was "revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit" (3:5
). These statements indicate that the role of apostles and prophets was fulfilled in the first century.

The New Testament is particularly clear about the temporary role of the apostles, since they were chosen to give eyewitness testimony of the risen Christ (Acts 1:21-26
; 5:32
; Luke 1:1-4
; 1 Cor. 9:1
). Paul indicated that he was the last person to see the risen Christ and receive an apostolic commission (1 Cor. 15:8
). The epistles of 2 Peter and Jude, among the very last New Testament writings to be penned, exhort the readers to avoid false doctrines by recalling the teachings of the apostles (2 Pet. 1:12-15
; 2:1
; 3:2
, 14-16
; Jude 3-4
, 17
). Peter and Jude did not say, "Listen to the apostles living today," but instead urged believers to "remember what the apostles said."

I am not arguing that only the Twelve and Paul were apostles. Barnabas (Acts 14:14
), Silas (1 Thess. 2:6
; cf. 1:1
), and Andronicus and Junia (Rom. 16:7
) all were apostles of Christ, and thus were no doubt among the more than 500 witnesses to the Resurrection (1 Cor. 15:6
). However, none of these persons was chosen as a successor to an earlier apostle (Matthias was Judas's replacement, not his successor, since Judas had forsaken his apostleship, Acts 1:21-26
).

There are other senses in which the word "apostle" is used in the New Testament. Certain individuals, including Epaphroditus, were "apostles of the churches" (2 Cor. 8:23
; Phil. 2:25
). These "apostles" had no authority over the church; they were messengers sent by and subject to their churches. In this latter sense it would be perfectly legitimate to speak of church representatives as "apostles," were it not for the confusion which might result from such usage.

Therefore, in the usual biblical sense of the term, there are no apostles today. Nor are there any prophets in the usual sense, as they were part of the "foundation" laid in the first-century church. This is not to deny the continuing validity of the gift of "prophecy," since Paul does refer to prophesying as a basic activity in which all Christians are urged to participate to the extent God gifts them (Rom. 12:6
; 1 Cor. 11:4-5
; 12:10
; 13:2
, 8-9
; 14:1-6
, 20-33
; 1 Thess. 5:20
), and in a general functional sense persons exercising this gift are even called "prophets" (1 Cor. 14:32
, 37
). Yet Paul also speaks of specific persons who occupied an office of "prophet" which was second in authority only to apostle (1 Cor. 12:28-29
). It is this office of "prophet," not all prophecy, which I am arguing passed away around the end of the first century.

Finally, some errors on this matter are worse than others. The loose use of the world "apostle" to refer to missionaries or church planters is not a serious error as long as this usage is sharply distinguished from the concept of an apostle who brings new doctrinal revelations and wields unquestionable authority. Nor is it a grievous error to interpret Ephesians 4:11 to refer to "apostles" in this sense of a church planter. The same would apply to those who hold that Ephesians 4:11 refers to the ongoing charismatic activity of prophesying. I do believe these interpretations are mistaken, but they are not in any way antagonistic to Christian faith.

On the other hand, to interpret Ephesians 4:11
as a call for a restoration of the office of apostle of Christ is not only a mistake in exegesis, it opens the door to heresy. To claim that the church today needs visions and revelations through modern apostles and prophets of Christ is to deny the sufficiency of the Bible (2 Tim. 3:16
) and to place the church at the mercy of false apostles, the likes of whom the apostle Paul warned us about in no uncertain terms (2 Cor. 11:13-15
).

The teachers of the "five-fold ministry," in seeking to "restore" a foundation which has never been moved, are actually laying a false foundation which will not support the building up of the body of Christ.



- See Also -

» Apostles
» Latter Rain Movement/Theology
» Prophets

- i go further, and argue there is no need to even refer to a gift of prophecy, for ALL believers have the same SPIRIT, and the same HOLY WRIT.
if one is a gifting transmitter of what the prophets have already written, what Jesus has already said, it means he is an inspired PREACHER/Teacher
 
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Aug 12, 2010
2,819
12
0
No one claims to be receiving extra - biblical anything, never have. If anything is extra biblical, it's your belief in a past Apostolic era which no one can provide one iota of scriptural proof to support.

The problem here is that you all have the wrong idea of what prophecy is. Prophecy should always enforce scripture not contradict it. Prophecy is and always has been a tool used by God to hold leadership accountable to God's word.
'Scuse me whut?

If ever I've heard a mob church catchphrase thats it...

Hold leadership accountable? Hang on...Christ is the leader, He's the only one with ANY authority. Every one under that is simply a teacher or a shepard.

I'm assuming, however, by leadership you are talking about the leader of your cul....I mean, your 'pastor'. So your saying if your pastor shares a 'word of prophecy' and it enforces scripture then he must be having private revelations with God? Of course your idea of 'enforcing scripture' is prolly wildly different to mine considering you see things in there (gibberish) which I dont but never mind.

Gives your pastor much credibility for injecting false doctrine into the flock all this prophecy bizzness I guess?
 
U

unclefester

Guest
Do you believe that there were 12 apostles..picked special to lay the foundation of the church?
Different than anyone else? Never to be needed again? So special there will be.....this is the New Jerusalem..

can you give a comment on this verse:


Revelation 21:14-27
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Checkmate !
 
C

Consumed

Guest
that may tire you.....IT MAKES ME ANGRY.
Why get angry though, is it a righteous anger when some don't believe the same way??? Old self serving stance in my view Kathy, usually that kind of anger brings sarcasm, rudeness etc can't say it becomes any where near righteous anger then. (that's just my view on anger)

Do you believe prayer is more effective than banging heads at times?? I do, fruit might not show to my timetable and even if it doesn't that's still ok, I don't have to see it, one day I might but leave things in His hands.

Just don't let the sun go down on your anger zone.

the only remedy is Jesus lolz

Ps, I was serious about how Jesus takes second to Paul at times for some, not being sarcastic, just a observation over years of this walk iv been on lolz I love the gospel, it's all good news, epistles as good as they are just come second compared to what Jesus says in His initial teachings, foundation of the foundation
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Why get angry though, is it a righteous anger when some don't believe the same way??? Old self serving stance in my view Kathy, usually that kind of anger brings sarcasm, rudeness etc can't say it becomes any where near righteous anger then. (that's just my view on anger)

Do you believe prayer is more effective than banging heads at times?? I do, fruit might not show to my timetable and even if it doesn't that's still ok, I don't have to see it, one day I might but leave things in His hands.

Just don't let the sun go down on your anger zone.

the only remedy is Jesus lolz

Ps, I was serious about how Jesus takes second to Paul at times for some, not being sarcastic, just a observation over years of this walk iv been on lolz I love the gospel, it's all good news, epistles as good as they are just come second compared to what Jesus says in His initial teachings, foundation of the foundation
ok alex.
that's cool.

why would i get angry if some don't believe the same way.........unless they are actually inside the church, teaching lambs false doctrine and most of us know it but hardly anyone says anything?

but...ya. more prayer.

and ....if those who can't be bothered finding out what the issues are think its godly or helpful to perpetually referee something they don't know about, maybe they're actually contributing to stoking something that may have worked itself out...and we'd end up knowing a little more than we did.

but....then we have those who say knowledge is a bad thing. we learn by osmosis or such. or....bible study is idolatry etc...you know how it goes.

so i guess we're back where we started.

gonna start a thread or two on the Gospels brother?
 
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1

1still_waters

Guest
the language gifts were also revelatory.
it was almost all new doctrine.

if one had a gift of languages, that man knew what was being revealed....but if he spoke in the new language and no one else there understood it, the man was to keep silent, and commune with God on the revelation.
How do you know it was almost all new doctrine? Were you there?

I think this is where cessationists tred on unfirm ground.

First it's based on a sketchy verse in 1 cor 13


Then it assumes those gifts were just new revelation. Or it assumes if those gifts are used today it would some how be new revelation...

1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,[c] unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.


These gifts weren't just for new revelation. They were for strengthening, encouragement and comfort.

This can be done without showing new revelation. Maybe God wants a fellow brother to share a specific Bible verse to address something specific in their life. All for the purpose of strengthening, encouragement and comfort.

Since you weren't actually in Corinth, you have little premis to say these gifts were used just for NEW revelation. Maybe someone needed to hear a specific OT verse to comfort them.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
How do you know it was almost all new doctrine? Were you there?

I think this is where cessationists tred on unfirm ground.

First it's based on a sketchy verse in 1 cor 13


Then it assumes those gifts were just new revelation. Or it assumes if those gifts are used today it would some how be new revelation...

1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,[c] unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.


These gifts weren't just for new revelation. They were for strengthening, encouragement and comfort.

This can be done without showing new revelation. Maybe God wants a fellow brother to share a specific Bible verse to address something specific in their life. All for the purpose of strengthening, encouragement and comfort.

Since you weren't actually in Corinth, you have little premis to say these gifts were used just for NEW revelation. Maybe someone needed to hear a specific OT verse to comfort them.


but what if there was no Bible verse revealed yet to share with a brother?

since they didn't have most of the NT recorded, let alone revealed, it is safe to assume they were receiving new revelations.

aren't you edified when you hear TRUTH?
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
but what if there was no Bible verse revealed yet to share with a brother?

since they didn't have most of the NT recorded, let alone revealed, it is safe to assume they were receiving new revelations.

aren't you edified when you hear TRUTH?
Then in that instance, yes it was a new revelation

But to say that ALL exercises of those gifts was a new revelation, eh, you can't conclusively say that.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
but what if there was no Bible verse revealed yet to share with a brother?

since they didn't have most of the NT recorded, let alone revealed, it is safe to assume they were receiving new revelations.

aren't you edified when you hear TRUTH?
Again let's look at what was going on ...

26 What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.

They were sharing a hymn, word of instruction, revelation, tongue or interpretation.

There were plenty of hymns in Psalms to share.

There was plenty of content in the OT to instruct from, which the Holy Spirit could unction someone to speak in to the situation.

We can't conclusively say that these were ONLY new revelations.
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
'Scuse me whut?

If ever I've heard a mob church catchphrase thats it...

Hold leadership accountable? Hang on...Christ is the leader, He's the only one with ANY authority. Every one under that is simply a teacher or a shepard.

I'm assuming, however, by leadership you are talking about the leader of your cul....I mean, your 'pastor'. So your saying if your pastor shares a 'word of prophecy' and it enforces scripture then he must be having private revelations with God? Of course your idea of 'enforcing scripture' is prolly wildly different to mine considering you see things in there (gibberish) which I dont but never mind.

Gives your pastor much credibility for injecting false doctrine into the flock all this prophecy bizzness I guess?

Read your bible. The role of the prophet is and always has been to uphold and enforce the biblical standard when that standard has been compromised. This concept encompasses almost the entire Old Testament from the time of Moses up until the coming of Christ.

In the New Testament prophecy does not give new revelation but help us to understand that which has already been given. That is the Apostle Paul encourages others to seek to prophecy because the role of the prophet is to uphold the scriptures and keep others accountable.

John 14:25-26 'These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.'

Many today have used Sola Scriptura as an excuse to dismiss the inner witness of the Holy Spirit with the Bible. While nothing is wrong with the Bible per say, in many ways it is open to interpretation, so this is their way of dismissing the unction of the Holy Spirit with their preferred doctrines (traditions) of men. Your 'Apostolic Era' is one such instance.
 
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A

Abiding

Guest
Read your bible. The role of the prophet is and always has been to uphold and enforce the biblical standard when that standard has been compromised. This concept encompasses almost the entire Old Testament from the time of Moses up until the coming of Christ.

In the New Testament prophecy does not give new revelation but help us to understand that which has already been given. That is the Apostle Paul encourages others to seek to prophecy because the role of the prophet is to uphold the scriptures and keep others accountable.

John 14:25-26 'These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.'

Many today have used Sola Scriptura as an excuse to dismiss the inner witness of the Holy Spirit with the Bible. While nothing is wrong with the Bible per say, in many ways it is open to interpretation, so this is their way of dismissing the unction of the Holy Spirit with their preferred doctrines (traditions) of men. Your 'Apostolic Era' is one such instance.
post 263 please...
 
Aug 12, 2010
2,819
12
0
Read your bible. The role of the prophet is and always has been to uphold and enforce the biblical standard when that standard has been compromised. This concept encompasses almost the entire Old Testament from the time of Moses up until the coming of Christ.

In the New Testament prophecy does not give new revelation but help us to understand that which has already been given. That is the Apostle Paul encourages others to seek to prophecy because the role of the prophet is to uphold the scriptures and keep others accountable.

John 14:25-26 'These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.'

Many today have used Sola Scriptura as an excuse to dismiss the inner witness of the Holy Spirit with the Bible. While nothing is wrong with the Bible per say, in many ways it is open to interpretation, so this is their way of dismissing the unction of the Holy Spirit with their preferred doctrines (traditions) of men. Your 'Apostolic Era' is one such instance.
Tell us exactly whats involved in New Testament prophecy in your church please. Just so we all understand what we're talking about.

Thanks.
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
WHAT?
oh my.......the NAR OT appropriation of 'Thus saith The Lord of Hosts'.

only problem is, we got A NEW PRIESTHOOD.
and only one King.

The Priest and King does not need prophets to keep Him accountable.

He has appointed pastors and elders to care for His flock, under-shepherds.

"Prophecy is and always has been a tool used by God to hold leadership accountable to God's word"

really?


...to interpret Ephesians 4:11 as a call for a restoration of the office of apostle of Christ is not only a mistake in exegesis, it opens the door to heresy. To claim that the church today needs visions and revelations through modern apostles and prophets of Christ is to deny the sufficiency of the Bible (2 Tim. 3:16 ) and to place the church at the mercy of false apostles, the likes of whom the apostle Paul warned us about in no uncertain terms (2 Cor. 11:13-15 ).

The Faulty Foundation of the Five-Fold Ministry


It has recently become popular to speak of "the five-fold ministry," a system of church government with apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. The neo-Pentecostal "Restoration" movement and its offshoot, "kingdom now" teaching, claims that one of the things which God is "restoring" to the church is this five-fold ministry. The sole prooftext used to support this concept is Ephesians 4:11-13
, which states that Christ gave "some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,...until we all attain to the unity of the faith and the full knowledge of the Son of God." The word "until," it is argued, proves that the church today needs apostles and prophets as much as evangelists, pastors, and teachers. However, it is the "building up" of the church (v.12) which must continue until the church is mature, not all five of the offices listed in verse 11. This is clear when the whole text is read as follows: "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers; [these offices were given] to equip the saints for the work of service, [which work has as its goal] to build up the body of Christ until we all attain to the unity of the faith..." The offices of apostle and prophet would naturally cease in the church once their role in "equipping the saints" was completed; that is, once the New Testament canon was completed.

Some have objected that there is no reason to bracket off the apostles and prophets from the other three offices listed in verse 11. However, in the very same epistle, Paul states that the church has "been built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets" (Eph. 2:20
) and that Christ's mystery concerning the church was "revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit" (3:5
). These statements indicate that the role of apostles and prophets was fulfilled in the first century.

The New Testament is particularly clear about the temporary role of the apostles, since they were chosen to give eyewitness testimony of the risen Christ (Acts 1:21-26
; 5:32
; Luke 1:1-4
; 1 Cor. 9:1
). Paul indicated that he was the last person to see the risen Christ and receive an apostolic commission (1 Cor. 15:8
). The epistles of 2 Peter and Jude, among the very last New Testament writings to be penned, exhort the readers to avoid false doctrines by recalling the teachings of the apostles (2 Pet. 1:12-15
; 2:1
; 3:2
, 14-16
; Jude 3-4
, 17
). Peter and Jude did not say, "Listen to the apostles living today," but instead urged believers to "remember what the apostles said."

I am not arguing that only the Twelve and Paul were apostles. Barnabas (Acts 14:14
), Silas (1 Thess. 2:6
; cf. 1:1
), and Andronicus and Junia (Rom. 16:7
) all were apostles of Christ, and thus were no doubt among the more than 500 witnesses to the Resurrection (1 Cor. 15:6
). However, none of these persons was chosen as a successor to an earlier apostle (Matthias was Judas's replacement, not his successor, since Judas had forsaken his apostleship, Acts 1:21-26
).

There are other senses in which the word "apostle" is used in the New Testament. Certain individuals, including Epaphroditus, were "apostles of the churches" (2 Cor. 8:23
; Phil. 2:25
). These "apostles" had no authority over the church; they were messengers sent by and subject to their churches. In this latter sense it would be perfectly legitimate to speak of church representatives as "apostles," were it not for the confusion which might result from such usage.

Therefore, in the usual biblical sense of the term, there are no apostles today. Nor are there any prophets in the usual sense, as they were part of the "foundation" laid in the first-century church. This is not to deny the continuing validity of the gift of "prophecy," since Paul does refer to prophesying as a basic activity in which all Christians are urged to participate to the extent God gifts them (Rom. 12:6
; 1 Cor. 11:4-5
; 12:10
; 13:2
, 8-9
; 14:1-6
, 20-33
; 1 Thess. 5:20
), and in a general functional sense persons exercising this gift are even called "prophets" (1 Cor. 14:32
, 37
). Yet Paul also speaks of specific persons who occupied an office of "prophet" which was second in authority only to apostle (1 Cor. 12:28-29
). It is this office of "prophet," not all prophecy, which I am arguing passed away around the end of the first century.

Finally, some errors on this matter are worse than others. The loose use of the world "apostle" to refer to missionaries or church planters is not a serious error as long as this usage is sharply distinguished from the concept of an apostle who brings new doctrinal revelations and wields unquestionable authority. Nor is it a grievous error to interpret Ephesians 4:11 to refer to "apostles" in this sense of a church planter. The same would apply to those who hold that Ephesians 4:11 refers to the ongoing charismatic activity of prophesying. I do believe these interpretations are mistaken, but they are not in any way antagonistic to Christian faith.

On the other hand, to interpret Ephesians 4:11
as a call for a restoration of the office of apostle of Christ is not only a mistake in exegesis, it opens the door to heresy. To claim that the church today needs visions and revelations through modern apostles and prophets of Christ is to deny the sufficiency of the Bible (2 Tim. 3:16
) and to place the church at the mercy of false apostles, the likes of whom the apostle Paul warned us about in no uncertain terms (2 Cor. 11:13-15
).

The teachers of the "five-fold ministry," in seeking to "restore" a foundation which has never been moved, are actually laying a false foundation which will not support the building up of the body of Christ.



- See Also -

» Apostles
» Latter Rain Movement/Theology
» Prophets

- i go further, and argue there is no need to even refer to a gift of prophecy, for ALL believers have the same SPIRIT, and the same HOLY WRIT.
if one is a gifting transmitter of what the prophets have already written, what Jesus has already said, it means he is an inspired PREACHER/Teacher
You and your NAR.

Zone at best you are a conspiracy theorist. At worst... well... it's not my place to say.

Anyways I have no doubt that it is women like who inspired the Apostle Paul to write the following passages of Scripture:

1 Timothy 2:11-12 "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent"

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 "Women should remain silent in the assemblies. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the assembly"

You are entirely too prideful, confrontational and antogonistic to have an a meaningful conversation with. If you can't have your way, you take a fit.
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
post 263 please...
Is that the one quoting the verse in Revelation speaking of the 12 Apostles?

To that I say, if we are to apply it in the manner in which you are using it then we would have to complete dismiss the entire teachings of the Apostle Paul because he was not one of the original 12.