Continuationism vs cessastionism?

[Crossfire]

Hello 1still. Here's a little more food for thought on the subject ...... very short and brief. Seems the shorter posts tend to get read a bit more. More C n' P for the most part but it explains it rather nicely If the three items of 1 Cor 13:8 were not going to cease before we see Jesus, why does the Bible even mention "ceasing" ? If they were meant to be around until the end, like healing etc, why would God even bring up the matter of ceasing ? In vs.9-10, only prophecy and knowledge are spoken of in reference to perfection. Why? Because they are the very two gifts used since Genesis for the inspired writing of Scripture. With the completed Bible, these 'in part' gifts were withdrawn. Why ? It is so no one can add to the already perfect Word. There are six items mentioned in the passage 1 Cor 13:8-13. Of these six, three are said to remain and three are said to cease. Clearly, if words mean anything, three cease at some point in time while the other three remain beyond that point, until we see Jesus ... when faith and hope will also cease. Love ........ it'll always remain

Here's the problem Fester. Regardless if you believe certain gifts will cease or not, how do we discern when they will or have ceased? There is absolutle no biblical proof of an Apostolic era. Given the numerous prophecies pointing toward specific events and the volume of prophecies given to point toward a singular event, don't you think if what you are saying is true, that Scripture would have mentioned something this important more than once?

 

[unclefester]

Here's the problem Fester. Regardless if you believe certain gifts will cease or not, how do we discern when they will or have ceased? There is absolutle no biblical proof of an Apostolic era. Given the numerous prophecies pointing toward specific events and the volume of prophecies given to point toward a singular event, don't you think if what you are saying is true, that Scripture would have mentioned something this important more than once?

New International Version (©1984)
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.


English Standard Version (©2001)
Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.


International Standard Version (©2008)
Love never fails. Now if there are prophecies, they will be done away with. If there are languages, they will cease. If there is knowledge, it will be done away with.


King James Bible
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

These three gifts were temporary until the completion of God's written revelation .... which is the New Testament. We have today (the complete New Testament of God's Word) what the early church did not have. This is what necessitated for them these temporary gifts. Here's a short easy read for anybody interested.

TONGUES WILL CEASE

 

[1still_waters]

Tell us what it is then Stilly.

Coz now I'm completely baffled by your position.

I dont see anywhere in your verses anyone has to ask God anything about what someones saying. It says pray that THEY may interpret. In other words, pray for the gift of interpretation of foreign languages.

All I see is rebuking the Corinthian church for talking foreign languages without interpretation.

Uhh

1cor 14
13 For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say.

You're assertion above is that the tongues 1 cor 12 and 14 speaks of is the ability to study languages and learn them.

So if I learned Spanish, then spoke it, would I need to ask someone to interpret it? Of course not! Because I had already learned it.

The only situation where someone would need an interpreter for the foreign language they just spoke, is if it was done through some miraculous event.

 

[Muskokaman]

New International Version (©1984)
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.


English Standard Version (©2001)
Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.


International Standard Version (©2008)
Love never fails. Now if there are prophecies, they will be done away with. If there are languages, they will cease. If there is knowledge, it will be done away with.


King James Bible
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

These three gifts were temporary until the completion of God's written revelation .... which is the New Testament. We have today (the complete New Testament of God's Word) what the early church did not have. This is what necessitated for them these temporary gifts. Here's a short easy read for anybody interested.

TONGUES WILL CEASE

This was in realation to the second coming of Christ Fes and yes when he returns the gifts will cease not until then. like how you chose the same line through 7 different printings though nice touch

 

[unclefester]

This was in realation to the second coming of Christ Fes and yes when he returns the gifts will cease not until then. like how you chose the same line through 7 different printings though nice touch

Muskokaman my friend ...... consider this. Six things were mentioned in 1 Corinthians 13:8-13. Of these said six, three are singled out to cease, these three being tongues, prophecy and knowledge. Agreed thus far ? Clearly, these three do cease at some point in time while the other three (faith, hope and love) remain. It is simply not possible for the first three gifts of verse 8 to remain along with our faith and hope (and love) unless we are willing to conclude that "the things to cease will remain until the things that remain do cease". Is this not making sense to anybody out here but me and a handful of others ? This is my last comment on the topic folks. God bless each and everyone of you in your search and studies

 

[zone]

Most people I know who carry on about the need for excessive healings and tongues and the like, most tend to be practical cessationists once you back them in to a nice tidy theological corner, through a process of questioning.

They begin by arguing that all believers need to be out there raising the dead and healing and on and on. But after you press them on it, they divert to the it's God's timing argument or some other delay technique.

Try asking these people a simple question....

"If you believe ALL believers should be out doing this stuff, then why aren't you in a hospital or nursing home now praying for them?"


They will try and find every tactic in the book to not answer. But when push comes to shove, they'll practically admit that yeah.......It's not going to happen as much or on the level they claim.

SLAM DUNK ON CESSATIONISM!
so...

are we

Reformed
Covenant
Amillennial
Cessationist

yet Stillman?

 

[zone]

I know a 20 year old girl who, up until recently, had been in a wheel chair since she was a small child. Several months ago she was completely healed and is walking today. While it may look a little awkward at first to those don't who know or understand her situation, but they didn't learn to walk for the very first time at the age of 20 either.

Here's the thing, the gifts - especially healing - does work today for those who abandoned faith in all esle except God. Christians in western society have no idea what total reliance on God really is. Whether you like it own up to it or not, our faith is in modern medicine for healing.

There's a huge difference between believing in something and believing for something. It's a completely different level of faith.

every apostle but john was tortured and killed.
no faith?

completely different LEVEL of faith?

nah....its ANOTHER GOSPEL

 

[zone]

Anyways, I am completely and entirely convinced that Cessationism is a cop out, a doctrine contrived due to a complete lack of faith.
.

heresy.
cessationism was God's Plan.

the trouble is folks who try to mess with THOSE FOUNDATIONAL SUPERNATURAL GIFTS that are recorded for us as History in scripture.

trouble comes from folks who have believed some other gospel.

they don't believe WHAT IS WRITTEN.

they think it's about THEM.

no claim to SOLA SCRIPTURA for "continuationists"

 

[4runner]

Originally Posted by Crossfire

Anyways, I am completely and entirely convinced that Cessationism is a cop out, a doctrine contrived due to a complete lack of faith.

You are completely right. They dont believe in the gifts of the spirit because they do not have the faith to believe.

 

[4runner]

no claim to SOLA SCRIPTURA for "continuationists"

You cannot be sola scriptura and a cessationalist... Not truly at least, because the scripture teach the gifts.

 

[1still_waters]

SLAM DUNK ON CESSATIONISM!
so...

are we

Reformed
Covenant
Amillennial
Cessationist

yet Stillman?

A nice hodge podge to make everyone upset...

Not really reformed. Not Arminian. Somewhere in between
I believe in two ages/dispensations. Age of Law. Unending reign of Messiah.
Amill
Continuist to the extent the gifts are for today but no legit one will contradict scripture

 

[1still_waters]

Oh yeah and I don't believe apostles exist. They are part of the foundation. God is done laying foundation.

 

[Strangelove]

Uhh

1cor 14
13 For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say.

You're assertion above is that the tongues 1 cor 12 and 14 speaks of is the ability to study languages and learn them.

So if I learned Spanish, then spoke it, would I need to ask someone to interpret it? Of course not! Because I had already learned it.

The only situation where someone would need an interpreter for the foreign language they just spoke, is if it was done through some miraculous event.

You cant interpret a language for the congregation while your speaking it dude.

So you better pray that someone else will do it.

 

[1still_waters]

You cant interpret a language for the congregation while your speaking it dude.

So you better pray that someone else will do it.

The immediate context doesn't seem to indicate that someone else is supposed to interpret it.


13 For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding.

 

[1still_waters]

The NIV uses THEY in the sense of the personal singular THEY. Not the THEY of a group of people. Here is the KJV on it. Again the immediate context shows the person is the one to be interpreting what they're saying..

13Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

14For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

 

[1still_waters]

So it brings me back to my initial point. This can't be about simple natural learning of languages, because someone who has learned a language doesn't need God to reveal to them what they just said.

 

[Consumed]

I know a 20 year old girl who, up until recently, had been in a wheel chair since she was a small child. Several months ago she was completely healed and is walking today. While it may look a little awkward at first to those don't who know or understand her situation, but they didn't learn to walk for the very first time at the age of 20 either.

Here's the thing, the gifts - especially healing - does work today for those who abandoned faith in all esle except God. Christians in western society have no idea what total reliance on God really is. Whether you like it own up to it or not, our faith is in modern medicine for healing.

There's a huge difference between believing in something and believing for something. It's a completely different level of faith.

Praise God, great testimony

Then this for a reply wow zone, where's giving glory to God for it, non existent, like your looking for the one statement he made about faith to claim it false doctrine overlooking the testimony all together.
Surely even you Kathy have a testimony of the power of the holy spirit doing something good outside of just the foundation been laid, no???

every apostle but john was tortured and killed.
no faith?

completely different LEVEL of faith?

nah....its ANOTHER GOSPEL

 

[erika83]

So it brings me back to my initial point. This can't be about simple natural learning of languages, because someone who has learned a language doesn't need God to reveal to them what they just said.

I see it like this: in Acts yes it was a miraculous gift that the apostles suddenly spoke in languages they have never learnt before. As they never learnt it, they didn't understand what they were saying so they needed interpretation. I do believe this gift could exist today though I don't see its utility as we can have "translators" and we can learn languages a lot easier. I didn't hear any testimony of this miracle happening these days. What is going on in some churches is certainly nothing like this original gift but just gibberish.

 

[zone]

Praise God, great testimony

Then this for a reply wow zone, where's giving glory to God for it, non existent, like your looking for the one statement he made about faith to claim it false doctrine overlooking the testimony all together.
Surely even you Kathy have a testimony of the power of the holy spirit doing something good outside of just the foundation been laid, no???

pardon me alex?
testimony of God doing something good?
uh....ya....tons.
in fact YOU know that alex...so why do you ask in that fashion?

this thread is about the continuation of versus cessation of foundational gifts and offices.

testimonies of God moving Providentially used as a justification to claim continuation of those offices and supernatural powers is one of the STUMBLING BLOCKS continuationists use. in fact its really the only "proof" of continuation of the foundational gifts....anecdotal stories of things God DOES EVERYDAY.

if you don't think saying WATCHING SOMEONE HEALED PROVIDENTIALLY REQUIRES A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT LEVEL OF FAITH is a stumbling block, perhaps you didn't read it right. what a stumbling block to someone dying of cancer...someone with faith. happens all over the world, someone told some charismatic says God will heal them...then they die. just as God willed all along.

my comment wasn't about the testimony, it was about TESTIMONIES used to justify continuationism.

i desire to give God all the Glory alex....that's why i find comments such as "
completely different LEVEL of faith?" not helpful to this critical discussion on cessationism.

that comment places the glory on the MAN WHO SUPPOSEDLY REACHES THAT LEVEL OF FAITH WHERE GOD CAN FINALLY ACT IN RESPONSE - that's another gospel, and it belongs in the Word Faith camp.

ok?

The Holiness Movement - SermonAudio.com

every apostle but john was tortured and killed.
no faith?

completely different LEVEL of faith?

nah....its ANOTHER GOSPEL

 

[Crossfire]

heresy.
cessationism was God's Plan.

the trouble is folks who try to mess with THOSE FOUNDATIONAL SUPERNATURAL GIFTS that are recorded for us as History in scripture.

trouble comes from folks who have believed some other gospel.

they don't believe WHAT IS WRITTEN.

they think it's about THEM.

no claim to SOLA SCRIPTURA for "continuationists"

Then prove it through the Scriptures... oh wait you can't. The bible doesn't say anything about an Apostolic Era at all.

Sola Scriptura is a joke. Most who believe in it dismiss a large portion of Scriptures due to doctrine that's not even Scriptural.