Dual Covenant Theology

[DiscipleWilliam]

For those who think there's still an unfulfilled covenant with "ethnic" Jews...

I'd like to see verification of bloodlines for modern Israelis as true ethnic descendants of Abraham. Even under a Dispensational system that negates faith and the atoning Christological sacrifice for sin as the ONLY means of salvation; the only qualifiers for the Abrahamic covenant would be those of actual ancestral descent. Why is the entire nation of modern Israel included in the dual covenant error? Fallacy within fallacy.

That's an interesting statement. I don't think that its addressed to me so I'll just leave it for another.

 

[Strangelove]

True, it is a New Testament. However, Christ (the Word of God) has always existed, its just that His physical ministry which focused upon the atoning sacrifice had a physical beginning in time and space. I would also argue that the elect of God -in regards to the Jews specifically in the OT- had faith in Christ (messiah) also regarding the ones whom the LORD God revealed Himself to. The Holy Spirit is what ultimately gives illumination regarding who God is and His will for our lives and the Holy Spirit was clearly manifested in the Old Testament. The OT Jews had faith in a messiah. I say this because to realize the severity of sin to a Holy Creator is to realize the necessity of a Savior for sin. The trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) is infinitely connected, not only in their relationship with one another, but also in the life of the believer or elect, whether OT or NT. The main difference between the OT and NT is that one was a foreshadowing and the other was a fulfillment. So naturally, there were/are specific differences within both, however, it is because of both that we have what we do. If a person is not recognizing the One in the OT there is something wrong. This is a major reason why Jesus so harshly rebuked the Jews of His day because of the blindness and hypocrisy that had enveloped the masses regarding sound doctrine and how far they digressed from where they came from.

Ok...next...

Is this new covenant (Grace through faith IN JESUS) the only covenant designed to save souls NOW, for all mankind regardless of flesh?

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

That's an interesting statement. I don't think that its addressed to me so I'll just leave it for another.

If you affirm dual covenants that respectively pertain to ethnic Jews and Gentiles, you may answer.

 

[DiscipleWilliam]

Ok...next...

Is this new covenant (Grace through faith IN JESUS) the only covenant designed to save souls NOW, for all mankind regardless of flesh?

With all due respect, grace through faith in Christ in not a new Covenant lol. Christ simply means "Messiah" and as evidenced in the OT, a belief in a future "Messiah" that would atone for sin was believed in by many. The atoning sacrifice that Christ committed (Blood) and the resurrection marked the New Covenant along with the dissemination of the Holy Spirit to the elect. Jesus of Nazareth was a visible representation of what was being completely spiritually but the Word has always been. The ethnic Hebrew Israelite's (for the most part) have abandoned this atoning sacrifice and are seen to have abandoned God as well because Jesus of Nazareth is God manifested in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16 see below). He is the visible image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15)

1 Timothy 3:16- Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.


John 10:30- "I and the Father are one.”

John 14:8-11


1“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God;believe also in me.
2In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

4And you know the way to where I am going.”

5Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?”
6Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
7If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

8Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”
9Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
10Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.
11Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.



​

 

[DiscipleWilliam]

If you affirm dual covenants that respectively pertain to ethnic Jews and Gentiles, you may answer.

Greetings,

I don't just affirm dual covenants but multiple covenants as evidenced in Scripture (see former posts in this thread). However, these covenants all do not have to do with salvation. Now, regarding your post #20 You are committing the logical fallacy of (1) "moving the goal posts." You are seeking verification of bloodlines in which no one outside of owning a multimillion dollar bio-chemical facility could accommodate.

Furthermore, you are committing further logical fallacies such as:

(2) attempting to build a "straw-man" argument by asking,

Why is the entire nation of modern Israel included in the dual covenant error?

This is building a straw-man around information that has never been presented or insinuated. No one in this thread has said anything about the state of "modern" Israel (at least I haven't), but only the ethnic Hebrew Israelite's which are the true descendants of Jacob.

(3) Begging-the-question,

You are inferring that because I believe that there exists multiple covenants that there also must exist multiple was to salvation. The definition of Covenant does not support this.

I will be happy to answer more rebuttals but have to go for now...ttyl

 

[zone]

I believe that the entire chapter of Romans 8 should be cited because it helps to give a better understanding of 'why' the first one is obsolete. The first testament is declared obsolete because the first was not faultless, and Christ has obtained a ministry that is much more excellent than the previous. However, the only way an older testament can be legally superseded is if the new testament creator (God) specifically stipulates that each covenant made in the former is addressed and fulfilled and/or negated. He did do this to many old testament covenants but not to all.

This is why Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior said in Matthew 5:17- “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

Jesus Christs' main purpose was to fulfill the former Testament in the New in which doing so He negated certain stipulations that were specifically made to ethnic Israel but they were not abandoned entirely, nor were all of their covenants abandoned.

i thought the Testator DIED and that initiated His NEW WILL AND TESTAMENT

 

[zone]

For those who think there's still an unfulfilled covenant with "ethnic" Jews...

I'd like to see verification of bloodlines for modern Israelis as true ethnic descendants of Abraham. Even under a Dispensational system that negates faith and the atoning Christological sacrifice for sin as the ONLY means of salvation; the only qualifiers for the Abrahamic covenant would be those of actual ancestral descent. Why is the entire nation of modern Israel included in the dual covenant error? Fallacy within fallacy.

welp, here's a site run by jews about jews

Medieval Kingdom of Khazaria, 652-1016


Over a thousand years ago, the far east of Europe was ruled by Jewish kings who presided over numerous tribes, including their own tribe: the Turkic Khazars. After their conversion, the Khazar people used Jewish personal names, spoke and wrote in Hebrew, were circumcised, had synagogues and rabbis, studied the Torah and Talmud, and observed Hanukkah, Pesach, and the Sabbath. The Khazars were an advanced civilization with one of the most tolerant societies of the medieval period. It hosted merchants from all over Asia and Europe. On these pages it is hoped that you may learn more about this fascinating culture

Khazaria.com - History of Jewish Khazars, Khazar Turk, Khazarian Jews

 

[AnandaHya]

Just quoting the Bible. If anyone has issues, take it up with God.

Below we see.

1.A new covenant given to the Jews.

2.We see Gentiles grafted in.

3. The abolition of the distinction between Jew and Gentile.

4. Not all who call themselves Jews are really Jews. You must accept the new covenant.


1. A new covenant given to the Jews.
Hebrews 8


3 Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. 5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”[a] 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:

“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”[c]

13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.


2. Gentiles grafted in.

Romans 11

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

3. Abolition of distinction between Jew and Gentile.

Ephesians 2

11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

4. Not all who call themselves Jews are really Jews. They must accept the new covenant.


Romans 2

28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.

Romans 3

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

I love reading actual Bible verses on the forums thanks stillie

 

[Abiding]

will you do that for mine too

 

[zone]

will you do that for mine too

i do mikey

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Greetings,

I don't just affirm dual covenants but multiple covenants as evidenced in Scripture (see former posts in this thread). However, these covenants all do not have to do with salvation. Now, regarding your post #20 You are committing the logical fallacy of (1) "moving the goal posts." You are seeking verification of bloodlines in which no one outside of owning a multimillion dollar bio-chemical facility could accommodate.

Furthermore, you are committing further logical fallacies such as:

(2) attempting to build a "straw-man" argument by asking,

Why is the entire nation of modern Israel included in the dual covenant error?

This is building a straw-man around information that has never been presented or insinuated. No one in this thread has said anything about the state of "modern" Israel (at least I haven't), but only the ethnic Hebrew Israelite's which are the true descendants of Jacob.

(3) Begging-the-question,

You are inferring that because I believe that there exists multiple covenants that there also must exist multiple was to salvation. The definition of Covenant does not support this.

I will be happy to answer more rebuttals but have to go for now...ttyl

It wasn't personal, and certainly not toward you.

It should be obvious we're speaking of covenants as related to salvation and the eschatalogical landscape of Amillennialism versus Dispensationalism, yes?

No "strawman", etc. Ultimately, nobody considers that modern Israel isn't comprised of actual descendants of Abraham with everyone included based on nationality-masquereded-as-ethinicity.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

welp, here's a site run by jews about jews

Medieval Kingdom of Khazaria, 652-1016


Over a thousand years ago, the far east of Europe was ruled by Jewish kings who presided over numerous tribes, including their own tribe: the Turkic Khazars. After their conversion, the Khazar people used Jewish personal names, spoke and wrote in Hebrew, were circumcised, had synagogues and rabbis, studied the Torah and Talmud, and observed Hanukkah, Pesach, and the Sabbath. The Khazars were an advanced civilization with one of the most tolerant societies of the medieval period. It hosted merchants from all over Asia and Europe. On these pages it is hoped that you may learn more about this fascinating culture

Khazaria.com - History of Jewish Khazars, Khazar Turk, Khazarian Jews

I will peruse it.

(Are you saying modern Israel IS comprised of true descendants of Abe?)

 

[zone]

I will peruse it.

(Are you saying modern Israel IS comprised of true descendants of Abe?)

nope.
saying the khazarian issue is settled, and admitted.
askenazim are khazars.
gentile converts to Talmudism.
jews by religion

 

[zone]

nope.
saying the khazarian issue is settled, and admitted.
askenazim are khazars.
gentile converts to Talmudism.
jews by religion

also scan this:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/27759-noahide-laws.html

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

nope.
saying the khazarian issue is settled, and admitted.
askenazim are khazars.
gentile converts to Talmudism.
jews by religion

I'm speaking in relation to those who conceptualize Dual Covenantism as being based on lineage to believe it, never realizing modern Israel isn't comprised of just Abe's bloodline and including all the nation of Israel by default.

Indoctrinated ignorant American Dispies generally perceive generally argue for a bloodline-national Israel rather than a religious Israel.

I know bloodlines are irrelavent to the Talmudists. Do you get what I'm saying about general Dispy perspective?

 

[zone]

I'm speaking in relation to those who conceptualize Dual Covenantism as being based on lineage to believe it, never realizing modern Israel isn't comprised of just Abe's bloodline and including all the nation of Israel by default.

Indoctrinated ignorant American Dispies generally perceive generally argue for a bloodline-national Israel rather than a religious Israel.

I know bloodlines are irrelavent to the Talmudists. Do you get what I'm saying about general Dispy perspective?

yes darlin'
i get it.

and they never quite get around to finding out what Judaism is.

Someone i love said something like:

if ye had believed Moses ye would have known Me for he spoke of Me.
but since ye do not believe Moses, how shall ye ever believe what I say?

oh well.

send horses guns and money. it'll be alright.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

yes darlin'
i get it.

and they never quite get around to finding out what Judaism is.

EXACTLY!!!! It's naive nostalgic OT sentimentalism or something. There's been substantial usurpation in 2000 years. I think this conceptualization is at the heart of much of the effectiveness of Dispy deceit. Well-meaning people siding with "God's chosen people".

Someone i love said something like:

if ye had believed Moses ye would have known Me for he spoke of Me.
but since ye do not believe Moses, how shall ye ever believe what I say?

oh well.

send horses guns and money. it'll be alright.

How 'bout a massive ultra-discreet $12M military-grade underground facility on 2600 acres, self-sufficient for a decade for 2000 faithful Noahide denouncers.

 

[zone]

EXACTLY!!!! It's naive nostalgic OT sentimentalism or something. There's been substantial usurpation in 2000 years. I think this conceptualization is at the heart of much of the effectiveness of Dispy deceit. Well-meaning people siding with "God's chosen people".



How 'bout a massive ultra-discreet $12M military-grade underground facility on 2600 acres, self-sufficient for a decade for 2000 faithful Noahide denouncers.

got room for zonerificus? i can kill my own food and i gots a plan for raising some.
we can use my glacial retreat as base 2....

i know the Noahide agenda inside out buddy.

got some BOMBSHELL news at the other place....the changes online, the dialectic is working: THEY'RE IN THE DOOR. they actually managed to pull it off.

amazing.

tick tock.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

got room for zonerificus? i can kill my own food and i gots a plan for raising some.
we can use my glacial retreat as base 2....

i know the Noahide agenda inside out buddy.

got some BOMBSHELL news at the other place....the changes online, the dialectic is working: THEY'RE IN THE DOOR. they actually managed to pull it off.

amazing.

tick tock.

I'll head over there now.

 

[Strangelove]

With all due respect, grace through faith in Christ in not a new Covenant lol. Christ simply means "Messiah" and as evidenced in the OT, a belief in a future "Messiah" that would atone for sin was believed in by many. The atoning sacrifice that Christ committed (Blood) and the resurrection marked the New Covenant along with the dissemination of the Holy Spirit to the elect. Jesus of Nazareth was a visible representation of what was being completely spiritually but the Word has always been. The ethnic Hebrew Israelite's (for the most part) have abandoned this atoning sacrifice and are seen to have abandoned God as well because Jesus of Nazareth is God manifested in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16 see below). He is the visible image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15)

1 Timothy 3:16- Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.


John 10:30- "I and the Father are one.”

John 14:8-11


1“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God;believe also in me.
2In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

4And you know the way to where I am going.”

5Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?”
6Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
7If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

8Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”
9Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
10Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.
11Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.



​

I'm still gonna need an answer to if there is only one covenant unto SALVATION for all mankind regardless of flesh?