Imputed Righteousness???

[NewLifeInChrist]

I wasn't really diving into any of these things deeply, I was just noticing and talking about an overall trend. A view of God that lessens Him in every argument, a view that lifts up the deeds and works of men and gives them credit that in truth does not belong to them. I'm specifically talking about the CDSC here and the fact that every argument they make in every topic does this, lessens Gods glory to say that men have a claim to it. Lets take the big one, salvation. They teach this is a thing man can gain and walk away from at will. That the real cost of salvation is our choice. That God wants to save us but just can't, unless we make the right choice. Hogwash, Eph 2:8-9

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Like you said salvation is a gift, and it's a gift in power that makes us actually new, our dead spirits are resurrected and reconciled to Him, so He can now live in us and guide us as we were created to be, which leads to my second "rub" with those I'm speaking of, which is teaching that we can lose salvation. The teaching that this gift of a resurrected Spirit given to us by God can be undone or "walked away from", is false. We can't be "unborn again", I do not believe that being born again is a cosmic probation that puts the full weight of salvation on the shoulders of the believer dependent on their obedience.

I agree with you and do not believe we are very far off from each other and feel we could find common ground on these issues, but they people I'm speaking of are not capable of this, they will not listen, they will not engage with what's actually said nor do they have any interest in common ground. Nope, the people I'm talking about will tell you what you believe and why you believe it, then no matter how clearly, calmly, and concisely you tell them that you do not believe the things they accuse you of, they still stuff the strawman up, label you, then burn him down in front of you, then celebrate how they just served God by destroying your heretical views.

It's insanity and is why I don't really respond to them anymore, and make the kind of comments you responded to. I'm the kind of guy that says to the man who goes to church, hears the gospel, see's the truth of "his way" and turns from it to repeat the prayer asking God to save him from himself and is born again right then and there, in power and in truth, and says this was 100% God and 0% man. That's what I believe is truth, but the ones I'm speaking of HATE this, they seem to loath the idea that we get no credit and deserve NO glory for our salvation and teach that we play a role in bringing it about, a.k.a- it's NOT all God. I just disagree whole heartedly.

Then you will probably like my reply on another OP...

Here is faith plus works for salvation:​

​

For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have believed do enter that rest... For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. (Heb 4:2-3, 10)​

​

When a person puts his trust in Christ for the forgiveness of his sins, he also stops working for his salvation. Here, the "work" that necessarily accompanies "faith" is a conscious decision to "cease from works".​

​

While this "work" is not objectively visible to human onlookers, it is nevertheless imperative that we "be diligent to enter that rest" (Heb 4:11) because the thoughts and intents of our hearts are clearly seen by "Him to whom we must give account" (Heb 4:13).​

 

[bluejean_bible]

Possibly something to do with the Calvinism derangement syndrome, which many here have.

Calvanist Derangement Syndrome?
Is that a condition wherein those who assert the gospel and what Jesus stated,no one can come to him unless the father calls?

 

[Magenta]

Calvanist Derangement Syndrome?
Is that a condition wherein those who assert the gospel and what Jesus stated,no one can come to him unless the father calls?

I cannot quite make out what you are asking there, but I will say that those who suffer from CDS
do deny a lot of what Scripture states, especially in relation to who the natural man is and what
he is capable of. It seems we have a lot of Pelagians here, too. And in relation to what you have said,
in terms of the Father calling, some say everyone hears, but the Bible explicitly denies that claim.

John 8:43, 47, Acts 13:48, Romans 8:8, John 8:43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message.” John 8:47 “Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. Romans 8:8 Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.

 

[bluejean_bible]

I cannot quite make out what you are asking there, but I will say that those who suffer from CDS
do deny a lot of what Scripture states, especially in relation to who the natural man is and what
he is capable of. It seems we have a lot of Pelagians here, too. And in relation to what you have said,
in terms of the Father calling, some say everyone hears, but the Bible explicitly denies that claim.

My observation concerned what I've witnessed on other community boards.

People being accused of being Calvinists,as if that equates a disease diagnosis,or worse,the status of not able to know the bible and Jesus' teachings related to God's calling to Holiness.

Some use the accusation of Calvinists as a stamp to judge others as unbelievers or heretics.
I was asking if the Calvanist Derangement Syndrome was an accusation against Bible believing Christians.

 

[GWH]

So, you're saying 2Tim3:6 says foolish women but is not about foolish women because of Gal3:28?

Surely you are able to harmonize those verses?

(If not, I will be happy to connect those dots "^)

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

some say everyone hears, but the Bible explicitly denies that claim

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. (Ro 1:18–23)​

This indictment against the lost shows clearly that their rejection of God was rebellion against what they knew to be true about Him, and they will be without excuse when they are judged because God was the One who showed them those things. If God shows these things to the lost, but they reject it, how can it be said they do not hear Him?

 

[ocean]

This is whom the Holy Spirit led me to back in the 1970's. Found him in the 80's.

He does everything you have been demanding of others.
Done on a very high level of integrity.

https://www.rbthieme.org/index.html#tabs-3

.

Guess I'll check him out. Thanks.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

My observation concerned what I've witnessed on other community boards.

People being accused of being Calvinists,as if that equates a disease diagnosis,or worse,the status of not able to know the bible and Jesus' teachings related to God's calling to Holiness.

Some use the accusation of Calvinists as a stamp to judge others as unbelievers or heretics.
I was asking if the Calvanist Derangement Syndrome was an accusation against Bible believing Christians.

I hope you are wrong about people judging Calvinists as unbelievers or heretics. I certainly think TULIP has its problems, but I have never thought of my Reformed friends and family members as lost people or heretics.

 

[GWH]

My observation concerned what I've witnessed on other community boards.

People being accused of being Calvinists,as if that equates a disease diagnosis,or worse,the status of not able to know the bible and Jesus' teachings related to God's calling to Holiness.

Some use the accusation of Calvinists as a stamp to judge others as unbelievers or heretics.
I was asking if the Calvanist Derangement Syndrome was an accusation against Bible believing Christians.

Yes, and not wanting to be accused of having CDS I have focused my view on the TULIP dogma, which I have put in the Controversial Issues lesson on our website as follows:

Searching Scripture and finding numerous passages indicating the need for perseverance leads the open-minded truthseeker to view the Calvinist doctrine known as “once saved, always saved” (OSAS) as mistaken. The problematic part of Calvinist teachings may be called “TULIPism”: total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace and perseverance (OSAS). TULIP is problematic because in affirming the sovereignty of God it contradicts biblical teaching that God loves everyone and forces no one to be chosen or damned.

Regarding the human soul and agency: the Bible does teach that humans are sinful and bound for hell unless God saves them (RM 3:23), but it also indicates that God graces every sinner with sufficient volition to repent and seek His salvation (MT 77, 1TM 2:3-4). Sinners who choose to seek will find God, but those who ignore His grace will be judged justly.

This interpretation of Scripture is sometimes called Arminianism, because it views normal adult human souls as having God-given moral free will (MFW) and thus accountability for their sinful choices. Thus, those who affirm this understanding may be termed “MFWists”, meaning that “God initiates; sinners may cooperate–or not.”

 

[Magenta]

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. (Ro 1:18–23)​

This indictment against the lost shows clearly that their rejection of God was rebellion against what they knew to be true about Him, and they will be without excuse when they are judged because God was the One who showed them those things. If God shows these things to the lost, but they reject it, how can it be said they do not hear Him?

You are equating seeing with hearing. Plus, the heavens declare the glory of God but they do not preach the gospel.
Jesus came to open the eyes of the blind, unstop the ears of the deaf, and raise the dead to life. He is still doing that.

Romans 10 verses 13-15 ~ Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on Him in Whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of Whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? As it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

 

[Magenta]

not wanting to be accused of having CDS

I think you do.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

You are equating seeing with hearing.

Yes, you are right about that.

 

[bluejean_bible]

Yes, and not wanting to be accused of having CDS I have focused my view on the TULIP dogma, which I have put in the Controversial Issues lesson on our website as follows:

Searching Scripture and finding numerous passages indicating the need for perseverance leads the open-minded truthseeker to view the Calvinist doctrine known as “once saved, always saved” (OSAS) as mistaken. The problematic part of Calvinist teachings may be called “TULIPism”: total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace and perseverance (OSAS). TULIP is problematic because in affirming the sovereignty of God it contradicts biblical teaching that God loves everyone and forces no one to be chosen or damned.

Regarding the human soul and agency: the Bible does teach that humans are sinful and bound for hell unless God saves them (RM 3:23), but it also indicates that God graces every sinner with sufficient volition to repent and seek His salvation (MT 77, 1TM 2:3-4). Sinners who choose to seek will find God, but those who ignore His grace will be judged justly.

This interpretation of Scripture is sometimes called Arminianism, because it views normal adult human souls as having God-given moral free will (MFW) and thus accountability for their sinful choices. Thus, those who affirm this understanding may be termed “MFWists”, meaning that “God initiates; sinners may cooperate–or not.”

Except the observation above contradicts the harmony found in the Gospel of Election,which is what Jesus taught as the gospel of the kingdom. And what we are told in Revelation as regards the lambs book of life that contains the names of those who are saved,Gods Elect. Those,per the scripture, whose names God wrote in the lambs book of life before the foundation of the world.

If,as Universalist believers teach, God loves everyone and all can be saved,he would not have left the sin nature to be inherent in humanity.
Leading us to be condemned unless or until ,as Jesus said, God gives us to him. Because God called us.

If we remember what Paul taught, that we cannot choose to realize our fallen state unless God allows in that natural sinner state, understand God's message because of our sin nature.

Which then precludes the idea we choose to accept Christ all on our own.
Jesus taught differently.

People may object to the tulip doctrine. However, it is in scripture. And Jesus taught every bit of it.


So,for me, when someone disparages those who defend the Gospel with what they think is a dismissal,an insult,in labeling that person a Calvinist they're actually disparaging themselves. And proving semantics obscure their understanding of the gospel.

Everyone is born with a sin nature. That is of God.
And no one overcomes the fate of that God given destiny unless God enters into them so they can understand the things of God.

 

[bluejean_bible]

I hope you are wrong about people judging Calvinists as unbelievers or heretics. I certainly think TULIP has its problems, but I have never thought of my Reformed friends and family members as lost people or heretics.

I've been a member of forums where that is exactly how people are treated after being accused of being a Calvinist.

Tulip is actually in the new testament. However,because of how the acronym is defined in Calvinism opponents fail to see tulip is defined by Jesus, point for point using different words to say the same thing.

 

[GWH]

Except the observation above contradicts the harmony found in the Gospel of Election,which is what Jesus taught as the gospel of the kingdom. And what we are told in Revelation as regards the lambs book of life that contains the names of those who are saved,Gods Elect. Those,per the scripture, whose names God wrote in the lambs book of life before the foundation of the world.

If,as Universalist believers teach, God loves everyone and all can be saved,he would not have left the sin nature to be inherent in humanity.
Leading us to be condemned unless or until ,as Jesus said, God gives us to him. Because God called us.

If we remember what Paul taught, that we cannot choose to realize our fallen state unless God allows in that natural sinner state, understand God's message because of our sin nature.

Which then precludes the idea we choose to accept Christ all on our own.
Jesus taught differently.

People may object to the tulip doctrine. However, it is in scripture. And Jesus taught every bit of it.

So,for me, when someone disparages those who defend the Gospel with what they think is a dismissal,an insult,in labeling that person a Calvinist they're actually disparaging themselves. And proving semantics obscure their understanding of the gospel.

Everyone is born with a sin nature. That is of God.
And no one overcomes the fate of that God given destiny unless God enters into them so they can understand the things of God.

What I shared harmonizes the doctrine of divine election with the doctrine of divine omnilove.

All who exercise God's enabling grace can choose to satisfy His requirement for election/salvation--or not,
because God's call is not irresistible. Enabling means accepting is NOT "all on our own".

I disagree that the NT teaches TULIP, but people may object to MFW doctrine in Scripture.

As I indicated, I do not disparage "Calvinism", but I do disagree with "TULIPism".

Perhaps the sin nature explains why so many take time to smell the TULIP?

 

[GWH]

I've been a member of forums where that is exactly how people are treated after being accused of being a Calvinist.

Tulip is actually in the new testament. However,because of how the acronym is defined in Calvinism opponents fail to see tulip is defined by Jesus, point for point using different words to say the same thing.

Again, MFW doctrine is also in the NT.
The problem everyone ought to be solving is how to harmonize them,
but of course the sinful nature prefers to argue.

 

[bluejean_bible]

What I shared harmonizes the doctrine of divine election with the doctrine of divine omnilove.

All who exercise God's enabling grace can choose to satisfy His requirement for election/salvation--or not,
because God's call is not irresistible. Enabling means accepting is NOT "all on our own".

I disagree that the NT teaches TULIP, but people may object to MFW doctrine in Scripture.

As I indicated, I do not disparage "Calvinism", but I do disagree with "TULIPism".

Perhaps the sin nature explains why so many take time to smell the TULIP?

Paul tells us in our natural sin state we cannot understand the things of God because those are only understood through the leading of God's spirit.

Jesus told his disciples he taught them in parables so that not all hearing him speak would understand what he's teaching. Again,because his teachings are spiritually discerned.

 

[bluejean_bible]

Again, MFW doctrine is also in the NT.
The problem everyone ought to be solving is how to harmonize them,
but of course the sinful nature prefers to argue.

MFW doctrine?

 

[studier]

Surely you are able to harmonize those verses?

(If not, I will be happy to connect those dots "^)

Please do.

 

[Genez]

Replace "you" with "we" and the judgmental attitude will be healed.

OK... still, it would sit better just to tell you the truth.

If God is God?
And, He is.

James 3:1​

​

Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, ​

because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.​

Then there are going to be only a few good teachers in this world that God has given us. - (James 3:1) -

In contrast.. There will be many teachers who will not be good. (2 Timothy 4:3)

You have my sympathy...
YOU have yet to fine one who can satisfy what we all need to know.
It became evident by some of what you have posted so far.

I was there also at one time.
Frustrating to be in.

No arrogance was intended in what I said.
But, I find too often, when lacking needed knowledge, some try to over compensate without realizing that real answers can be found.
God wants us all to fully mature in knowledge of His Word = the mind of Christ.
He will provide a few excellent teachers. Only a few.
Only a few find it.

Having humility is the open door for grace for all of us...
Grace will guide us into finding a genuinely good teacher.

In the mean while?
God may let us bounce off walls for a time, as to develop an appreciation in us for a good teacher once we find one.

2 Timothy 4:3​

​

For the time will come when they will not put up with sound doctrine. ​

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great ​

number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.​

​

YOU needed to know that. We all do.

Most teachers can not teach what is needed to reach maturity in God's Word.
Yet, many just the same will boast in their pet doctrines they love to argue over.

grace and peace ..............