Will The Actual Calvinists Here Please Stand Up?

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I Am An Actual Calvinist

  • Yes

    Votes: 5 20.8%
  • No

    Votes: 19 79.2%

  • Total voters
    24

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
3,246
1,125
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45
#81
Thanks, but my question was "Is it possible to be a partial Calvinist,
who affirms the parts in agreement with the kerygma,
but not the problematic TULIP part?"

(Let me know what google says about that :^)
To be honest it has a lot to do with who you ask, and who is making what claim. For example I say that I'm not a Calvinist and I don't "believe in", endorse, or teach the 5 points or Calvinism at all. I do not call myself or think of myself as a Calvinist on any level in any way. I like to think of myself as a honest and brave person, not scared to proclaim what I believe is truth by the power and guidance of our God, and I say I am not a Calvinist, I wouldn't be scared to proclaim if I was one. Yet I am called a Calvinist by others.

So who is right? Do others get to label me that, therefore it makes it so? Even more than that, do those people get to label me that and then tell me what I believe on top of it? That's what many do and what we face here often.

How about if I believe something that a Calvinist believes too, something in the fundamental Christian belief system that I believe and that they also believe, so does that mean I'm automatically a Calvinist? Because there are beliefs in Catholicism that overlap, does that make us Catholic? How about Mormonism? It just depends on who is saying, and what standard is being used. Listening to each other and engaging with what the other person is actually saying is necessary to get to the truth of the matter. I do know that.
 

bluejean_bible

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2025
871
418
63
#82
You have a lot of anger.
:ROFL: I know who you are.

Thanks to Studier for posting this in a different thread.
16 These six things the LORD hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him: 17 A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil, 19 A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren. (Prov. 6:16-19 NKJ)

I'll be ignoring this account too.
 

BillyBob

Active member
Dec 20, 2023
537
249
43
Texas
#83
Since you ask, I would say that I prefer reformed teaching and beliefs!
If someone demands that the Calvinist label is placed on it, that's fine with me! However, I have never studied the writing of Calvin nor do I intend to. I would much rather study the Heidelberg Catechism, Westminster Confession, Canons of Dort, or other early reformed writings in addition to the Bible itself!
 

bluejean_bible

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2025
871
418
63
#84
Since you ask, I would say that I prefer reformed teaching and beliefs!
If someone demands that the Calvinist label is placed on it, that's fine with me! However, I have never studied the writing of Calvin nor do I intend to. I would much rather study the Heidelberg Catechism, Westminster Confession, Canons of Dort, or other early reformed writings in addition to the Bible itself!
You might find this if interest. Or not. :D

"While Calvinists would all agree that the five doctrines presented in the Canons are true, they may not all be clear about how important they are. I fear that the phrase, “the five points of Calvinism,” is actually rather unhelpful and confusing.

First, the phrase implies that Calvinism summarizes itself in these five points. It does not and never has. Calvinism summarizes itself in its confessions (e.g., the Belgic Confession and the Westminster Confession) and its catechisms (e.g., the Heidelberg Catechism and the Westminster catechisms). A summary of Calvinism covers many elements not in the five points."
https://www.wscal.edu/resource/the-canons-of-dort-for-today/
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
3,313
1,933
113
#85
The word "disciple" means follower of Christ, so look at those verses beginning with MT 10:1 and ending with ACTS 18:23.
So, “Christian” was never used in the greeting or valediction of any epistle. The word was never used within any NT book as a greeting between one believer or another nor was it used as an adjective to describe the activity of believers.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
4,215
936
113
#86
I also suggest we consider the opponents of Calvanism can be so because they are Arminian.

Also,I copied this article because it supports the historic record I referenced early on.

That the tenets of Calvinism pre existed the teaching of John Calvin.
It is pasted so to give opportunity to read the material in the event some may be reluctant to open a link.

Shared under the permissions granted through Fair Use.
Source:

https://atwistedcrownofthorns.com/2...-with-what-the-early-church-fathers-believed/
The link, read more here, does not open. However, I find the TU part of TULIP and the history of pre-Calvin church fathers is a useful start in the study of pre-Calvinist teaching.

And there is more to be gleaned at the link from comments posted to the article.

So Is Calvinism Consistent With What The Early Church Fathers Believed?

Historic Christianity has with stood fallacies and aberrant teachings from the days of the Apostles and early church fathers to the modern day. What is refuted in one generation makes a subtle comeback in the next dressed in more alluring language with all garb and fanfare. Michael Horton tackles the theology of the early church fathers so well in his book Putting Amazing Back into Grace. I would gladly like to share an excerpt that I came across courtesy of T. Scott Morgan (Warranted Faith):

The ubiquity of Arminianism in the modern evangelical church can make it difficult for some to seriously consider the possibility of the truth of an alternate doctrinal system such as Calvinism. However, this over-sensitivity toward Arminian theology is not a result of a discovery of its own alleged truth.

Rather, it demonstrates only how easily heresy can spread and gain legitimacy in a culture and church that is by and large theologically illiterate, apathetic, and ignorant of the historical Christian faith.
It’s not uncommon in the internet world to encounter those who would like to associate the origin of Calvinism with the great Reformer, John Calvin.

In truth, little more than the modern name of this theological system originated with Calvin.

Calvinism, as it has come to be called, is simply a nickname for historical Christianity. ”Calvinism” and “Arminianism” are only modern labels of the same issues that the church has always been dealing with.

While the “5 Points of Calvinism” did not develop until the need to produce a concise response during the 17th century conflict with the Arminian Remonstrance, the truths declared in these points were largely believed by those who denounced the great heresies, and have always been accepted and cherished by some portion of the Christian Church from its beginning.

What follows are sample quotations from early Church fathers who supported these doctrines of grace.

TOTAL DEPRAVITY​
Barnabas (A.D. 70): “Learn: before we believed in God, the habitation of our heart was corrupt and weak.”​
Ignatius (A.D. 110): “They that are carnal cannot do the things that are spiritual…Nor can the unbelievers do the things of belief.”​
Justin Martyr (A.D. 150): “Mankind by Adam fell under death, and the deception of the serpent; we are born sinners…No good thing dwells in us…For neither by nature, nor by human understanding is it possible for me to acquire the knowledge of things so great and so divine, but by the energy of the Divine Spirit…Of ourselves it is impossible to enter the kingdom of God…He has convicted us of the impossibility of our nature to obtain life…Free will has destroyed us; we who were free are become slaves and for our sin are sold…Being pressed down by our sins, we cannot move upward toward God; we are like birds who have wings, but are unable to fly.”​
Clement Of Alexandria (A.D. 190): “The soul cannot rise nor fly, nor be lifted up above the things that are on high, without special grace.”​
Origen: “Our free will…or human nature is not sufficient to seek God in any manner.”​
Eusebius (A.D. 330): “The liberty of our will in choosing things that are good is destroyed.”​
Augustine (A.D. 370): “If, therefore, they are servants of sin (2 Cor. 3:17), why do they boast of free will?…O, man! Learn from the precept what you ought to do; learn from correction, that it is your own fault you have not the power…Let human effort, which perished by Adam, here be silent, and let the grace of God reign by Jesus Christ…What God promises, we ourselves do not through free will of human nature, but He Himself does by grace within us…Men labor to find in our own will something that is our own, and not God’s; how can they find it, I know not.”​
UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION​
Clement Of Rome (A.D. 69): “Let us therefore approach Him in holiness of soul, lifting up pure and undefiled hands unto Him, with love towards our gentle and compassionate Father because He made us an elect portion unto Himself…Seeing then that we are the special elect portion of a Holy God, let us do all things that pertain unto holiness…There was given a declaration of blessedness upon them that have been elected by God through Jesus Christ our Lord…Jesus Christ is the hope of the elect…”​
Barnabas (A.D. 70): “We are elected to hope, committed by God unto faith, appointed to salvation.”​
Ignatius: “To the predestined ones before all ages, that is, before the world began, united and elect in a true passion, by the eternal will of the Father…”​
Justin Martyr: “In all these discourses I have brought all my proofs out of your own holy and prophetic writings, hoping that some of you may be found of the elect number which through the grace that comes from the Lord of Sabaoth, is left or reserved [set apart] for everlasting salvation.”​
Irenaeus (A.D. 198): “God hath completed the number which He before determined with Himself, all those who are written, or ordained unto eternal life…Being predestined indeed according to the love of the Father that we would belong to Him forever.”​
Clement Of Alexandria (A.D. 190): “Through faith the elect of God are saved. The generation of those who seek God is the elect nation, not [an earthly] place, but the congregation of the elect, which I call the Church…If every person had known the truth, they would all have leaped into the way, and there would have been no election…You are those who are chosen from among men and as those who are predestined from among men, and in His own time called, faithful, and elect, those who before the foundation of the world are known intimately by God unto faith; that is, are appointed by Him to faith, grow beyond babyhood.”​
Cyprian (A.D. 250): “This is therefore the predestination which we faithfully and humbly preach.”​
Ambrose Of Milan (A.D. 380): “In predestination the Church of God has always existed.”​
Augustine (A.D. 380): “Here certainly, there is no place for the vain argument of those who defend the foreknowledge of God against the grace of God, and accordingly maintain that we were elected before the foundation of the world because God foreknew that we would be good, not that He Himself would make us good. This is not the language of Him who said, ‘You did not choose Me, but I chose you’ (John 15:16).” Read More Here.

Re "Calvinism, as it has come to be called, is simply a nickname for historical Christianity.": No, it is the name for his adoption of Augustinianism and doubling down on the TULIP part. (I know because I did a seminary study and paper on Augustine :^)
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
4,215
936
113
#88
So, “Christian” was never used in the greeting or valediction of any epistle. The word was never used within any NT book as a greeting between one believer or another nor was it used as an adjective to describe the activity of believers.
Yes, the synonym disciple was used.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
3,313
1,933
113
#89
Yes, the synonym disciple was used.
You’re calling it a synonym. “Christian” was coined by the Romans. It was the Roman church that adopted its use to describe all believers. This was done to distinguish them from followers of other philosophers and mystics in their polytheistic society. This was the way of Rome. Ultimately, it dilutes who we are in Him.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
4,215
936
113
#91
You’re calling it a synonym. “Christian” was coined by the Romans. It was the Roman church that adopted its use to describe all believers. This was done to distinguish them from followers of other philosophers and mystics in their polytheistic society. This was the way of Rome. Ultimately, it dilutes who we are in Him.
Well, it was coined by the time Acts was written by Luke, perhaps in the church as Rome.
 

ocean

Active member
Oct 15, 2024
274
120
43
#92
Not my intention at all.
Words have meanings and the words you chose to say to another believer, came across as condescending. It is left to you as to how you want to respond and the impression you are leaving.
 

ocean

Active member
Oct 15, 2024
274
120
43
#93
This is goading,yes?

Because your post is an utter falsehood.
This is also not a good way to respond if you actually desire honest dialogue. As a person who chose Eng Lit as a second major, I take exception to the way you throw words around and then say you don't mean it the way it sounds.
 

bluejean_bible

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2025
871
418
63
#94
Words have meanings and the words you chose to say to another believer, came across as condescending. It is left to you as to how you want to respond and the impression you are leaving.
God bless you.
 

bluejean_bible

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2025
871
418
63
#95
This is also not a good way to respond if you actually desire honest dialogue. As a person who chose Eng Lit as a second major, I take exception to the way you throw words around and then say you don't mean it the way it sounds.
God bless you.
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
1,573
753
113
#96
I detest labels. I don't remember the preacher, but he prayed, "Lord, save your elect. And then elect some more". I like that. We do not know who the elect are. We should preach as if anyone can be saved, no matter who or what they are.
No. We all Know who the elect are. They are believers. Every single believer is elected to His service.

Every single person who has ever lived is CALLED to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Election and predestination is for believers only........AFTER salvation.
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
5,894
3,597
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Frankston, Victoria
christianlife.au
#97
No. We all Know who the elect are. They are believers. Every single believer is elected to His service.

Every single person who has ever lived is CALLED to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Election and predestination is for believers only........AFTER salvation.
I do not understand how anyone can be predestined after the event. Yes, everyone is called. Few are chosen. I also do not know how I can determine if someone is predestined to be saved before they are saved. So if I get the opportunity, I will witness to them. Then it is between them and God.
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
5,894
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Frankston, Victoria
christianlife.au
#98
The tradition was to call followers of philosophers after the name of the philosopher. So the people in Antioch just followed tradition when they labeled the believers as “Christians”.

Peter’s use of it was specific to persecution. He was saying “Even when they persecute you as a “Christian” don’t lose heart: they are associating you with Him.” This is my paraphrase that captures the meaning of his encouragement to believers who would suffer.

The issue with “Christian” is many-fold. It’s not just that it’s derived from a Roman tradition, also, it’s that Christ is more than a philosopher or teacher. He came not to show us different rules for life, but He actually made a way, by His own sacrifice, into the presence of God. He changes our being and nature, not just our doing. Moreso, the power He wields is not of the mind but of the Spirit.

Sorry, I’m on an iPhone. I might add more when I get back from my travels.
Blessings
All kinds of labels were used. "Disciple" simply means someone who is taught by another. Plato had disciples. Believer? In what? That every time a drop of rain hits the ground, a flower grows? That the earth is flat? When you saw her face? Amway? Now there is a group of fervent believers.

What word would you use instead of Christian?
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
3,313
1,933
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#99
All kinds of labels were used. "Disciple" simply means someone who is taught by another. Plato had disciples. Believer? In what? That every time a drop of rain hits the ground, a flower grows? That the earth is flat? When you saw her face? Amway? Now there is a group of fervent believers.

What word would you use instead of Christian?
The issue with “believer” was present during the writing of the New Testament, yet Luke and Paul used the word to describe those in Christ.

The writers of the NT used and recorded many words for people who worshipped Christ: believers, saints, sons of God, children of God, brothers, elder, the ekklesia, etc. In Revelation it seems we are addressed mostly as “saints”.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
4,215
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The issue with “believer” was present during the writing of the New Testament, yet Luke and Paul used the word to describe those in Christ.

The writers of the NT used and recorded many words for people who worshipped Christ: believers, saints, sons of God, children of God, brothers, elder, the ekklesia, etc. In Revelation it seems we are addressed mostly as “saints”.
And Christians. (ACTS 11:26, 26:28, 1PT 4:16)