What is a church?

[DJT_47]

Where did you get that crazy idea that only the apostles were empowered by the Holy Spirit.

You think Paul's instruction to the Corinthian Church is not valid?

1 Corinthians 12:4-11
Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.
There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. But to each one is given
the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given the word of wisdom through
the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit,
and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy,
and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the
interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one
individually just as He wills.

Are you ready to submit to the Lord's Commandment or not?

The crazy idea that only the apostles had the power to enable the manifestation of the Holy Spirit comes directly from the scriptures. As I said study them. I gave you a couple hints to start with, go there and follow the Acts of the apostles.

And what's your point regarding the church at Corinth? The question is, how were the gifts of the Spirit enabled? The gifts were enabled by the laying on of the apostle's hands. Go study the scriptures.

 

[Gideon300]

So you think unbelievers who are dynamic speakers, ingenious scientists, inspired songwriters, healing doctors and so forth do not receive those abilities from God?

2CR 11:14 says Satan can masquerade as an angel of light, which implies that he can also appear to be loving--as many cult leaders do.

There were two trees in Eden. One was the tree of Life, the other was the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. As we know, Adam chose the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. So all mankind operates on that principle, which leads to death. God will not judge people on their talents, no matter how "good" they are. Everyone is born dead in trespass and sin.

Indirectly, you are right. God created Adam with every talent. We are made in God's image. If Adam had chosen life, we would not be having this conversation. He did not. The problem with talents that you describe is how they are used. Mostly it is to serve Satan. In ignorance, yes, but the end result is the same. Brilliant minds produced nuclear weapons. Hitler's dynamic speeches turned Germans against Jews and led to WW2. Inspired songwriters? Have you listened to the lyrics of many of the popular songs?

I have much appreciation for the medical profession. I recently had a heart attack and my care was excellent. However, it is the medical profession that terminates pregnancies. Australia has one of the highest rates of abortion in the world.

The fundamental problem of man is that he chooses to be independent of God. That way seems right, but it ends in death. (Proverbs 16:25 and 14:12) All too often, much talent simply drives the person further from God. Scientists who reject evolution know what it costs to declare God's glory in Creation. Discrimination in science is permitted only when a Christian denies evolution. It is the gifted, hardworking and intelligent people who oppress Christians. And it is perfectly acceptable in the science community.

 

[Gideon300]

The crazy idea that only the apostles had the power to enable the manifestation of the Holy Spirit comes directly from the scriptures. As I said study them. I gave you a couple hints to start with, go there and follow the Acts of the apostles.

And what's your point regarding the church at Corinth? The question is, how were the gifts of the Spirit enabled? The gifts were enabled by the laying on of the apostle's hands. Go study the scriptures.

Just not true. The Holy Spirit fell on people while the apostles were preaching. The Holy Spirit gives gifts as He wills. Some gifts are imparted by the laying on of hands. I prophesied in a meeting before I knew what prophecy was. No one laid hands on me. I was extremely dubious about the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It took me 3 years to realise that it is in fact for today. Much of my objection was because I hated being controlled by anyone and that included God. I suffered a great deal because of that foolishness.

 

[Inquisitor]

The crazy idea that only the apostles had the power to enable the manifestation of the Holy Spirit comes directly from the scriptures. As I said study them. I gave you a couple hints to start with, go there and follow the Acts of the apostles.

And what's your point regarding the church at Corinth? The question is, how were the gifts of the Spirit enabled? The gifts were enabled by the laying on of the apostle's hands. Go study the scriptures.

Negative DJT_47, your confusing the laying on of the hands of the apostles. For the reception of the
Holy Spirit with the gifts distributed by the Holy Spirit.

You can receive the Holy Spirit through preaching as in Acts 10:44-46.

You can, in fact, receive the Holy Spirit at any time.

Here's what Chat GPT had to say.

Yes, the apostles did lay hands on people to receive the Holy Spirit. Several passages in Acts show this practice:

Acts 8:14-17 – Peter and John went to Samaria after Philip had preached there. The new believers had been baptized in Jesus’ name, but they had not yet received the Holy Spirit. The apostles laid hands on them, and they received the Spirit.
Acts 19:1-6 – Paul encountered some disciples in Ephesus who had only received John’s baptism. After baptizing them in the name of Jesus, he laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit, manifesting in speaking in tongues and prophecy.

However, the Holy Spirit was also given without the laying on of hands, as seen in Acts 10:44-46, where Cornelius and his household received the Spirit while Peter was still preaching.

Were the gifts of the Holy Spirit separately given?

Yes, according to 1 Corinthians 12, the gifts of the Spirit are distributed individually as the Spirit wills:

1 Corinthians 12:4-11 – Paul explains that there are different kinds of spiritual gifts (wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, discernment, tongues, and interpretation), and they are given as the Spirit decides.

This suggests that receiving the Holy Spirit and receiving specific gifts are distinct. Every believer receives the Spirit, but not everyone receives the same gifts.

See, Chat GPT agrees with me.

 

[GWH]

There were two trees in Eden. One was the tree of Life, the other was the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. As we know, Adam chose the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. So all mankind operates on that principle, which leads to death. God will not judge people on their talents, no matter how "good" they are. Everyone is born dead in trespass and sin.

Indirectly, you are right. God created Adam with every talent. We are made in God's image. If Adam had chosen life, we would not be having this conversation. He did not. The problem with talents that you describe is how they are used. Mostly it is to serve Satan. In ignorance, yes, but the end result is the same. Brilliant minds produced nuclear weapons. Hitler's dynamic speeches turned Germans against Jews and led to WW2. Inspired songwriters? Have you listened to the lyrics of many of the popular songs?

I have much appreciation for the medical profession. I recently had a heart attack and my care was excellent. However, it is the medical profession that terminates pregnancies. Australia has one of the highest rates of abortion in the world.

The fundamental problem of man is that he chooses to be independent of God. That way seems right, but it ends in death. (Proverbs 16:25 and 14:12) All too often, much talent simply drives the person further from God. Scientists who reject evolution know what it costs to declare God's glory in Creation. Discrimination in science is permitted only when a Christian denies evolution. It is the gifted, hardworking and intelligent people who oppress Christians. And it is perfectly acceptable in the science community.

Yes, God gives good gifts (rain in MT 5:45) to believers and unbelievers, who are judged on the basis of whether they exercise those gifts to glorify God and build Christ's body--or not.

Weapons may be used justly (self-defense) or unjustly (murder).
Hitler used his leadership ability in the service of Satan (the father of lies and murder per JN 8:44).
Anti-Christian science is pseudo-science.
Brian Wilson and Paul McCartney? Their lyrics did not advocate immorality but generally affirmed family values,
so I share God's grief that they apparently never accepted Christ Jesus as Lord, because I would like to thank them
in heaven for blessing me with such beautiful and enjoyable music.

Yes, the primal sin of man (A&E) is that he/she chooses to do it "my way" = I-dolatry rather than God's Way.

 

[DJT_47]

Just not true. The Holy Spirit fell on people while the apostles were preaching. The Holy Spirit gives gifts as He wills. Some gifts are imparted by the laying on of hands. I prophesied in a meeting before I knew what prophecy was. No one laid hands on me. I was extremely dubious about the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It took me 3 years to realise that it is in fact for today. Much of my objection was because I hated being controlled by anyone and that included God. I suffered a great deal because of that foolishness.

The Holy S pirit fell on people twice in that way, unilaterally, without the laying on of the apostle's hands. In both very unique instances which were NOT the norm, it was for a sign from God to validate what was happening, that it was his purpose. The 1st time was in Acts 2 when it fell on the apostles. The end result, the Jews believed and tge church was established at Jerusalem. The only other time was recorded in Acts 10, when it fell on Cornelius and his, also as a sign, that the Gentiles were to be added to the body of believers, after which the they were baptized into Christ. In both instances, it was the beginning of the church; 1st the Jews, then the Gentiles. No other time did the Spirit fall nor was manifested by gifts of the Spirit without the laying on of the apostle's hands. Study the scriptures!

 

[DJT_47]

Negative DJT_47, your confusing the laying on of the hands of the apostles. For the reception of the
Holy Spirit with the gifts distributed by the Holy Spirit.

You can receive the Holy Spirit through preaching as in Acts 10:44-46.

You can, in fact, receive the Holy Spirit at any time.

Here's what Chat GPT had to say.

Yes, the apostles did lay hands on people to receive the Holy Spirit. Several passages in Acts show this practice:

Acts 8:14-17 – Peter and John went to Samaria after Philip had preached there. The new believers had been baptized in Jesus’ name, but they had not yet received the Holy Spirit. The apostles laid hands on them, and they received the Spirit.
Acts 19:1-6 – Paul encountered some disciples in Ephesus who had only received John’s baptism. After baptizing them in the name of Jesus, he laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit, manifesting in speaking in tongues and prophecy.

However, the Holy Spirit was also given without the laying on of hands, as seen in Acts 10:44-46, where Cornelius and his household received the Spirit while Peter was still preaching.

Were the gifts of the Holy Spirit separately given?

Yes, according to 1 Corinthians 12, the gifts of the Spirit are distributed individually as the Spirit wills:

1 Corinthians 12:4-11 – Paul explains that there are different kinds of spiritual gifts (wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, discernment, tongues, and interpretation), and they are given as the Spirit decides.

This suggests that receiving the Holy Spirit and receiving specific gifts are distinct. Every believer receives the Spirit, but not everyone receives the same gifts.

See, Chat GPT agrees with me.

Did you read and understand what I stated? Obviously not. The 2 instances wherein the Holy Ghost fell on people, were Acts2 and Acts 10, as a sign, and fir a very unique reason. To convert the jews whi crucified Christ in Acts2 which resulted in the beginning of the church in Jerusalem, and in Acts 10, same reason and logic, to convert the Gentiles as a sign it was God's will they should also be added to the body of Christ, which also was the beginning of the church amongst the Gentiles. Those are the only 2 times, nor the norm, but unusual and for a unique reason: to start the church!

And I know very well the difference between tge indwelling of the Holy Ghost and tge gifts, the manifestations of the Holy Ghost, those listed in 1 cor 12:8-10.

Indwelling of the Spirit =Acts 2:38

Gifts/manifestations of the Spirit = by the laying on of the apostle's hands

 

[Gideon300]

The Holy S pirit fell on people twice in that way, unilaterally, without the laying on of the apostle's hands. In both very unique instances which were NOT the norm, it was for a sign from God to validate what was happening, that it was his purpose. The 1st time was in Acts 2 when it fell on the apostles. The end result, the Jews believed and tge church was established at Jerusalem. The only other time was recorded in Acts 10, when it fell on Cornelius and his, also as a sign, that the Gentiles were to be added to the body of believers, after which the they were baptized into Christ. In both instances, it was the beginning of the church; 1st the Jews, then the Gentiles. No other time did the Spirit fall nor was manifested by gifts of the Spirit without the laying on of the apostle's hands. Study the scriptures!

Whatever. I know differently. One of the great revivals was in Wales at the very early 1900's. Churches in Wales were well known for sound doctrine, but they were dry and lifeless. The revival there was based on the restoration of the truth of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. As in all revivals, there were excesses and error. But when pubs close because no one wants to drink, and churches are overflowing with then newly born again, you need to look at the reasons.

Jesus told the disciples to teach others what He taught them. This includes the next generation of the Christians and the one after that, to the end of the age. Pentecostalism is flawed, mostly due to spiritual pride. Many get obsessed with the power of the Holy Spirit and neglect the fruit. That has led to deception and sin. The Corinthian church was exactly like that. However, Paul did not tell them to quit manifesting the gifts of the Spirit. His instruction included ending divisiveness, discipline for immoral behaviour and the correct use of the gifts.

If the gifts are not valid for today, tell me where prophecy comes from? How about gifts of healing? Tongues and interpretation? The gift of discernment still operates and is needed more than ever.

 

[DJT_47]

Whatever. I know differently. One of the great revivals was in Wales at the very early 1900's. Churches in Wales were well known for sound doctrine, but they were dry and lifeless. The revival there was based on the restoration of the truth of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. As in all revivals, there were excesses and error. But when pubs close because no one wants to drink, and churches are overflowing with then newly born again, you need to look at the reasons.

Jesus told the disciples to teach others what He taught them. This includes the next generation of the Christians and the one after that, to the end of the age. Pentecostalism is flawed, mostly due to spiritual pride. Many get obsessed with the power of the Holy Spirit and neglect the fruit. That has led to deception and sin. The Corinthian church was exactly like that. However, Paul did not tell them to quit manifesting the gifts of the Spirit. His instruction included ending divisiveness, discipline for immoral behaviour and the correct use of the gifts.

If the gifts are not valid for today, tell me where prophecy comes from? How about gifts of healing? Tongues and interpretation? The gift of discernment still operates and is needed more than ever.

You tell me where they come from! Satan is "transformed into an angel of light". What prophecy? What's been prophecied and did it come true? How about gifts of healing? Do people's broken legs get mended visibly in front of your eyes when a so-called healer touched the person? The tongues were a sign yo unbelievers and spoken in earthly tongues according to scripture; is that what you mean? Or is it a bunch of incoherent, undiscernable babbling during a "church" service when the whole group is babbling outloud at the same time? So, you tell me!

 

[GWH]

You tell me where they come from! Satan is "transformed into an angel of light". What prophecy? What's been prophecied and did it come true? How about gifts of healing? Do people's broken legs get mended visibly in front of your eyes when a so-called healer touched the person? The tongues were a sign yo unbelievers and spoken in earthly tongues according to scripture; is that what you mean? Or is it a bunch of incoherent, undiscernable babbling during a "church" service when the whole group is babbling outloud at the same time? So, you tell me!

Re "The gift of discernment still operates and is needed more than ever.": That is certainly true, although it might make CC moot.

 

[DJT_47]

Re "The gift of discernment still operates and is needed more than ever.": That is certainly true, although it might make CC moot.

Don't confuse the gift of discernment, the ability to discern good and evil, with common sense and long hard study to discern or judge. If true discernment were present today, you wouldn't have thousands of different "Christian churches" and as many different beliefs, religious opinions, and general lack of scriptural understanding as we do today. Everyone thinks they're right and the vast majority don't even know how to save a person's soul!

 

[GWH]

Don't confuse the gift of discernment, the ability to discern good and evil, with common sense and long hard study to discern or judge. If true discernment were present today, you wouldn't have thousands of different "Christian churches" and as many different beliefs, religious opinions, and general lack of scriptural understanding as we do today. Everyone thinks they're right and the vast majority don't even know how to save a person's soul!

Yes, that is exactly my point: ...nor arguments on CC.

 

[mailmandan]

Everyone thinks they're right and the vast majority don't even know how to save a person's soul!

That's because the vast majority teach salvation by faith (their version of faith) + works (including Roman Catholics, Mormons and Campbellites) when salvation is by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

 

[mailmandan]

It's not a physical immersion in water that reconciles you to God.

It's what the water baptism represents that matters and not the ritual itself.

A person is baptized as a sign that they believe, that they trust Jesus.

A public proclamation that their sin is washed away in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
They rise from the baptism as a new creation in Christ.

1 Peter 3:21
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you, not the removal of dirt from the flesh,
but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Here is an example below of how Christian rituals get blown out of proportion.

In the first century, Christians would gather to break bread. Before the eleventh century, there
was a huge ongoing debate about whether the bread, should be leavened bread or unleavened bread.
How the bread was made became a key point of division that precipitated the greatest church split
in Christian history. The western church (Catholic) used unleavened bread.
Whereas the eastern church (Orthodox) used leavened bread.

There were other major differences also but the debate above illustrates the profound depth
of man's corrupt nature. Christians lack the ability to distinguish ritual from faith.

Was there debate about variations in the ritual of water baptism?

Will it be a water baptism of affusion?

How about a water baptism by aspersion?

Better still a water baptism by full immersion?

Should infants be baptized?

I even wonder if you attend a church whose name is based on baptism?

Was the church ever interested in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ?

False religion turns symbols and shadows of salvation into the substance and the source.

 

[GWH]

That's because the vast majority teach salvation by faith (their version of faith) + works (including Roman Catholics, Mormons and Campbellites) when salvation is by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Maybe so, but in my Baptist case how to be saved was taught weekly but how to grow spiritually rarely.

 

[mailmandan]

Maybe so, but in my Baptist case how to be saved was taught weekly but how to grow spiritually rarely.

That is unfortunate. What drew me to the Baptist church where I attend now is they not only clearly share the gospel of Christ, which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) on a regular basis but they also encourage new believers to grow in discleship and to go on to live the abundant life. They have really good outreach ministries and encourage church members to get plugged in and serve. With that being said, it's still up to us to grow and serve and not settle for a life of mediocrity.

 

[DJT_47]

That is unfortunate. What drew me to the Baptist church where I attend now is they not only clearly share the gospel of Christ, which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) on a regular basis but they also encourage new believers to grow in discleship and to go on to live the abundant life. They have really good outreach ministries and encourage church members to get plugged in and serve. With that being said, it's still up to us to grow and serve and not settle for a life of mediocrity.

Why do Baptists call themselves 'baptists' but don't believe in nor abide by baptist scriptural, fundamental principles? Earn the very beginning principles of John was the "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" which is very clear. It tells you what it is as well as what its for. I think you guys should change your name to somehow eliminate the word 'baptist' from it. You don't really believe in nor practice, or preach the need for baptism.

 

[Kroogz]

but how to grow spiritually rarely.

How do we do this? How do we teach people to grow spiritually?

 

[Inquisitor]

How do we do this? How do we teach people to grow spiritually?

The Holy Spirit is the source.

Pray and ask, seek and knock.

They are all gifts; the gift of salvation, prophecy, knowledge, etc.

 

[mailmandan]

Why do Baptists call themselves 'baptists' but don't believe in nor abide by baptist scriptural, fundamental principles? Earn the very beginning principles of John was the "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" which is very clear. It tells you what it is as well as what its for. I think you guys should change your name to somehow eliminate the word 'baptist' from it. You don't really believe in nor practice, or preach the need for baptism.

The official name of our church is "Abundant Life." It's technically non-denominational (independent) and is in accord with Baptist theology. Baptists are generally distinguished by baptizing only professing Christian believers (believers' baptism) and doing so by complete immersion. My church does not teach the false doctrine of baptismal regeneration. I've seen numerous baptisms performed at my church and I've heard wonderful testimonies from new converts, including folks who have left the RC church and the CoC.

The baptism that John taught was "in regard to/on the basis of" remission of sins received upon repentance. In Matthew 3:11, we read - "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." Now did John baptize with water "for" (in order to obtain) repentance or "in regard to/on the basis of" repentance? Obviously, the latter. Repentance precedes water baptism.