How do we know that we're right?

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Possum

Guest
#1
My apologies if this sparks off any ill feeling or debate!

I've been a Christian for about 2 years, but as far back as I can remember, I've had this question.
Christians are strong enough in their faith to *know* that they are right. But so are Jews and Muslims and Sikhs etc. I knew a girl a while ago who refused to believe that I didn't believe in God, because her own opinion was that no-one couldn't believe.

I know it's hard, as someone who believes one thing, to understand how someone can believe something else, just as strongly.

I can't explain why I know that Jesus died for us. I really can't. I don't have any 'evidence' that other religions don't have. But I just know it.

So my question is, how do we know that we are right, when other religions know that they're right?

Thanks :)
 

shemaiah

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2011
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#3
Well, I know am in the right path coz He talks to me and He comforts me and He gives me joy! I do not need anything more!
 
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Ugly

Guest
#4
Well, as far as the 'sincerity' of others with different religious beliefs, sincerity means nothing in context of right or wrong. If that were at all a measure of truth then there would be no real truth, because truth would be whatever you make of i t.
About the person who refused to accept the idea that someone couldn't believe in God, well, someone with that much fear must really be struggling. It is an irrational thought and one that shows the persons inability or willingness to accept the reality around them.
And really, when it comes down to it we can't 'prove' ourselves right about our faith. That's why it's faith. There's an element of it that requires you believe without evidence. All we can do is live it out and make examples of ourselves.
 

leelee

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2011
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#5
^ I do agree but I have to point out that other religions have faith too. And on the same principle as not being able to prove ourselves right we also cannot prove them wrong.
 
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jimmydiggs

Guest
#6
^ I do agree but I have to point out that other religions have faith too. And on the same principle as not being able to prove ourselves right we also cannot prove them wrong.
This is bologna. Not high grade Oscar Meyer either. You can prove a claim to be wrong.

All I have to do is establish the universe had a beginning, and that time is not eternal, and I've already defeated Jainism, Hinduism, and Buddhism.
 
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jimmydiggs

Guest
#7
To add to the previous, the most direct route to prove others wrong (assuming no presuppositions are in the way) is to argue the resurrection, and that christ said he is the only way, and you've immediately eliminated all other options.
 

leelee

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2011
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#8
This is bologna. Not high grade Oscar Meyer either. You can prove a claim to be wrong.

All I have to do is establish the universe had a beginning, and that time is not eternal, and I've already defeated Jainism, Hinduism, and Buddhism.
So prove that it had a beginning.
 

leelee

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2011
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#9
To add to the previous, the most direct route to prove others wrong (assuming no presuppositions are in the way) is to argue the resurrection, and that christ said he is the only way, and you've immediately eliminated all other options.
Fair enough but we are going by our own faith in that. Prove it.
(Just for the record I don't doubt that we are right I just don't think that we can prove everybody else is wrong. God gave each and everybody an equal measure of faith wherever it may be directed. Their faith may be every bit as strong as ours)
 
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jimmydiggs

Guest
#10
So prove that it had a beginning.
Ever heard of the big bang?


Let alone get into matters of philosophy of time.

You can't have an actual set of infinites. You can't have an infinte number of past events.

It's pretty simple really.
 
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jimmydiggs

Guest
#11
Fair enough but we are going by our own faith in that. Prove it.
(Just for the record I don't doubt that we are right I just don't think that we can prove everybody else is wrong. God gave each and everybody an equal measure of faith wherever it may be directed. Their faith may be every bit as strong as ours)
I need to go eat lunch while I can, if I have time when I get back I'll address this. Otherwise you should get aresponse sometime this eveining (about 6-7 hours from now).
 

leelee

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2011
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#12
Ever heard of the big bang?


Let alone get into matters of philosophy of time.

You can't have an actual set of infinites. You can't have an infinte number of past events.

It's pretty simple really.
I have heard of the big bang....there is no definitive proof of it. it is a theory.
 

leelee

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2011
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#13
I need to go eat lunch while I can, if I have time when I get back I'll address this. Otherwise you should get aresponse sometime this eveining (about 6-7 hours from now).
There is every chance I will be asleep by then but if so I will have a look when I get up. Time zones really hinder the debating process!

Enjoy your lunch.
 
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jimmydiggs

Guest
#14
I have heard of the big bang....there is no definitive proof of it. it is a theory.
That I will concede. I tend to not put a lot of trust in scientific theorizing myself. I take the position of Instrumentalism in philosophy of science. I'm basically agnostic toward much of science's theoretical claims.


However, the philosophical arguments I presented, are pretty solid.
 
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Possum

Guest
#15
To add to the previous, the most direct route to prove others wrong (assuming no presuppositions are in the way) is to argue the resurrection, and that christ said he is the only way, and you've immediately eliminated all other options.
Yes...that's what we believe. Other religions don't believe that Jesus is the only way. There is little actual solid evidence that this happened.
I have faith in Jesus. I know he exists, what he did on Earth for us. But people of other religions know that theirs is correct and that Jesus wasn't really here.

I'm not trying to start a debate with my question, I just find is such an interesting topic.
 
Feb 9, 2011
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#16
My apologies if this sparks off any ill feeling or debate!

I've been a Christian for about 2 years, but as far back as I can remember, I've had this question.
Christians are strong enough in their faith to *know* that they are right. But so are Jews and Muslims and Sikhs etc. I knew a girl a while ago who refused to believe that I didn't believe in God, because her own opinion was that no-one couldn't believe.

I know it's hard, as someone who believes one thing, to understand how someone can believe something else, just as strongly.

I can't explain why I know that Jesus died for us. I really can't. I don't have any 'evidence' that other religions don't have. But I just know it.

So my question is, how do we know that we are right, when other religions know that they're right?

Thanks :)

Well, the obvious answer from my perspective is that...No, you don't know you are right. No one does. That is why it's called "faith". There will inevitably be people who come here and present "evidence"...but there are a whole lot of scientists and atheists and scholars that have great "evidence" as well. No one can prove or disprove anything. We can't concretely prove there is no Santa Claus. But somethings are just ridiculous and go against our logic.

That in addition to all the other religions you mentioned...there are so many idea's out there. Once you see that christianity is just another one in the mix...it all starts making sense.

This is why I am atheist/Satanist.

Religion forces you to suppress cognitive thinking skills. Anyone that know's anything about psychology can see how all religion is basically brainwash. Your parents introduce whatever religion it is that they are to you and they (along with schools and a lot of other forces) work on you until you are one of them. It doesnt work on everyone, but it does on a lot of people.
 
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jimmydiggs

Guest
#17
Fair enough but we are going by our own faith in that. Prove it.
(Just for the record I don't doubt that we are right I just don't think that we can prove everybody else is wrong. God gave each and everybody an equal measure of faith wherever it may be directed. Their faith may be every bit as strong as ours)
Well if we take a minimal evidences approach, this is the outline I would use(it's probably the best outline)...

Miminal evidences takes what most people would agree is true, and argue from that.

William Lane Craig's said:
A. Jesus' tomb was found empty by a group of his women followers on the first day of the week following his crucifixion.
1. The historical reliability of the story of Jesus' burial supports the empty tomb.
2. The story of Jesus' empty tomb is independently reported in very early sources
3. Mark's story is simple and lacks legendary development
4. The tomb was discovered empty by women.
5. The earliest Jewish response to the disciples presupposes the empty tomb.

B. Various individuals and groups on different occaisons and under varying circumstances experienced appearances of Jesus alive.
1. Paul's list of eyewitnesses to Jesus' resurrection appearances guarentees that such appearances occured.
2. The gospel accounts provide multiple, independent reports of postmortem appearances of Jesus.
3. The resurrection appearances were physical, bodily appearances.


C. The First Disciples came sincerely to believe in Jesus' resurrection despite every predisposition to the contrary.
1. Jews had no expectation of a Messiah who instead of triumphing over Israel's enemies would be shamefully executed by them as a criminal.
2. Jewish beliefs about the afterlife preclude anyone's rising from the dead to glory and immortality before the resurrection at the end of the world.
At this point, one would have to demonstrate why rival explainations are false or inadequate.





Also, surprisingly,there are about 24+ independent historical sources as well. A few from GotQuestions below..

Gotquestions.org said:
The first-century Roman Tacitus, who is considered one of the more accurate historians of the ancient world, mentioned superstitious “Christians” (from Christus, which is Latin for Christ), who suffered under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius. Suetonius, chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian, wrote that there was a man named Chrestus (or Christ) who lived during the first century (Annals 15.44).

Flavius Josephus is the most famous Jewish historian. In his Antiquities he refers to James, “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.” There is a controversial verse (18:3) that says, “Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats....He was [the] Christ...he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.” One version reads, “At this time there was a wise man named Jesus. His conduct was good and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who became his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.”

Julius Africanus quotes the historian Thallus in a discussion of the darkness which followed the crucifixion of Christ (Extant Writings, 18).

Pliny the Younger, in Letters 10:96, recorded early Christian worship practices including the fact that Christians worshiped Jesus as God and were very ethical, and he includes a reference to the love feast and Lord’s Supper.

The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover and the accusations against Christ of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy.

Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them. He said that Jesus' teachings included the brotherhood of believers, the importance of conversion, and the importance of denying other gods. Christians lived according to Jesus’ laws, believed themselves to be immortal, and were characterized by contempt for death, voluntary self-devotion, and renunciation of material goods.

Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel, was put to death by the Jews, and lived on in the teachings of His followers.

Then we have all the Gnostic writings (The Gospel of Truth, The Apocryphon of John, The Gospel of Thomas, The Treatise on Resurrection, etc.) that all mention Jesus.

In fact, we can almost reconstruct the gospel just from early non-Christian sources: Jesus was called the Christ (Josephus), did “magic,” led Israel into new teachings, and was hanged on Passover for them (Babylonian Talmud) in Judea (Tacitus), but claimed to be God and would return (Eliezar), which his followers believed, worshipping Him as God (Pliny the Younger).
Did Jesus really exist? Is there any historical evidence of Jesus Christ? <--- click
 
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jimmydiggs

Guest
#18
Well, the obvious answer from my perspective is that...No, you don't know you are right. No one does.
I know I'm right. This comes from knowing enough about opposing views.

That is why it's called "faith". There will inevitably be people who come here and present "evidence"...but there are a whole lot of scientists and atheists and scholars that have great "evidence" as well.
Which is why you have to examine claims made, and also who makes them.


No one can prove or disprove anything.
Cogito Ergo Sum.


We can't concretely prove there is no Santa Claus.
This is part of a popular internet notion, that we can't prove a negative. Yes we can.

Atheists attempt to do this, when they argue the Problem of Evil. It is an attempt to show that the Judeo-Christian god does not exist. Unfortunately for them, they actually verify his existance.

But somethings are just ridiculous and go against our logic.
I'm glad logic isn't person relative.

That in addition to all the other religions you mentioned...there are so many idea's out there.
This notion that because there are multiple options, therefor all or false, or none can be right, is a ridiculous notion. 2+2=__ I can write anything into the blank, but not all answers will be right.


The Law of Non-Contradiction is your friend.


Once you see that christianity is just another one in the mix...it all starts making sense.
Don't forget, that religions and atheism are from a neutral position, attempts to answer the same questions. What we see here is that the atheist is just being arbitrary and self-referentially incoherent.

Atheism is just as much apart of "the mix" as any other explaination.


This is why I am atheist/Satanist.
If the above is a summary, I sure hope there's better stuff somewhere else.


Religion forces you to suppress cognitive thinking skills.
I don't see how. Maybe speecific religions, or specific indiviuals, but to claim that it is the case for all religions and all people, is a hasty generalization.

Also, I have had my intellect more stimulated by my faith in Christ, than when I was atheist. When I was atheist, I could be lazy in the argument. As a Christian, I have to be well-prepared, and also must be thorough in my presentation. I have read more on philosophy of mind, philosophy of science, philosophy of epistemology, metaphysics, morality, and other minor categories than I ever dreamed I would have. My vocabulary has expanded likely to twice the volume as it was before, simply by learning about philosophy due to my commitment to the one I love, my lord and savior Jesus Christ.

I have had to learn about various things in history I never knew about previously, I've had to learn various facts about archeaology, theology, apologetics, and others.

From the love I have for my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, I have desired to learn more so people like you could come to love him as well, and I have learned more than I ever imagined I would have learned on these matters.


Please don't make generalizations like that. It simply isn't factual.




Anyone that know's anything about psychology can see how all religion is basically brainwash.
Modern American Pschology is based on a presupposition that is a faulty one, and that is that the mind is identical to the brain.

This can be demonstrated to be false by the fact that mental states often contradict or are not identical to brain states. If something is true for one, but not the other, they are not identical.

Also, there is the fact that physical things do not have intentionality, and the mind does. Thus, the mind cannot be a physical thing. It must be immaterial.

From that, we can demonstrate that because psychology has a faulty presupposition, it then will have faulty conclusions.

However, if you desire to claim that religions are basically brainwashing, keep in mind, what is sauce for the Goose, is sauce for the Gander.



Your parents introduce whatever religion it is that they are to you and they (along with schools and a lot of other forces) work on you until you are one of them.
This is a Genetic Fallacy.



It doesnt work on everyone, but it does on a lot of people.
Statistics show atleast in the United States, it sure doesn't.

Barna Group said:
In fact, the most potent data regarding disengagement is that a majority of twentysomethings - 61% of today’s young adults - had been churched at one point during their teen years but they are now spiritually disengaged (i.e., not actively attending church, reading the Bible, or praying). Only one-fifth of twentysomethings (20%) have maintained a level of spiritual activity consistent with their high school experiences. Another one-fifth of teens (19%) were never significantly reached by a Christian community of faith during their teens and have remained disconnected from the Christian faith.
The Barna Group - Most Twentysomethings Put Christianity on the Shelf Following Spiritually Active Teen Years <--- click
 
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jimmydiggs

Guest
#19
I'm not trying to start a debate with my question, I just find is such an interesting topic.
Then why ask the question to begin with?


As a side note.

Christians, please read 1 Peter 3. Specifically verse 15.

Thank you.
 
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jimmydiggs

Guest
#20
Also, noticed something but didn't get in in time.

Michelle94 said:
No one can prove or disprove anything.
This statement is self-referentially incoherent.