Another look at John 10.

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Feb 17, 2023
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2ndTimeIsTheCharm said:
Please read this verse carefully:

John 6:37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

In this sentence, there are actually TWO groups of people being described here: 1) those the Father gives to Jesus, and 2) whoever else comes to Jesus.

A shepherd gives his sheep to his son.
"OK, son, they are all yours now."

If this is parabolic, and based on how things work in real life experience, does that mean that every sheep the father gave will automatically respond to the son's voice and immediately begin to follow the son wherever the son leads them? Or does the son now need to win over the trust of the sheep? And is it possible that maybe some of the father's gifted sheep will never trust him?

Ask yourself first how God was with you when you got saved (since you say you are):

1) Did you automatically respond to Jesus' voice and immediately begin to follow HIm wherever He led you?

2) Did Jesus need to win over your trust?

3) Is it possible within you that you might never trust Jesus (in any area of your life)?

This doesn't have to be textbook knowledge. These are questions you can answer yourself from your own experience if you're really saved.


🚟
 

Cameron143

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To avoid equivocation, please explain what you mean by keep and saved. These words have a variety of meanings in scripture and common discourse.

Your question is too vague. It's like asking "Who keeps a newborn baby safe?" It takes a village, right?
Did it take a village to save you?
 

studier

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It was the Grace of God that provided a way for us to be saved. His Grace provided the sacrifice and because of His unmerited favor to us He gave us His book that is our road map to heaven. His Grace is evident in all He has done for us. You would think no one would complain about doing something for Him.
I'm still reading through this thread. After I began last evening, I took a break and was listening to an interview of a Professor of Philosophy of Religion. In it he said something about 2 types of knowledge that reminded me about God's Word. In essence he said, 'someone can read everything there is about bikes and know everything there is to know about bikes, but still not know how to ride a bike.'

There's something about Grace that always seems to take a back burner if it's even brought into the discussion. For at least some brevity I'm beginning in Titus 2:9 but all of Titus is context:

NKJ Titus2:9-15 Exhort bondservants to be obedient to their own masters, to be well pleasing in all things, not answering back,
10 not pilfering, but showing all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things.
  • Paul is commanding Titus to set the Ekklesia in order by commanding Christians how to behave.
  • The purpose for proper behavior (aka good works) is to beautify - to cause something to have an attractive appearance - in all things the teaching of God our Savior
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
  • Paul now elaborates on this good behavior that makes our Saviors' teaching attractive - He explains what God's Grace that brings salvation does
  • God's Grace is being personified as God our Savior who appeared to all men
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
  • God's Grace / God our Savior taught:
    • We are to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts
    • We are to live soberly/moderately/showing self-control
    • We are to live righteously
    • We are to live godly
13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
  • God's Grace taught us how to live while looking for His glorious return
14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
  • The reason God's Grace - Jesus Christ - gave Himself on our behalf was to:
    • Redeem/Free us from all lawlessness (sinfulness)
    • Cleanse for Himself a special people who are earnestly committed to good works
15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.
  • Paul commands Titus to get this into Christians heads and lives and to let no one disregard/despise him.
Paul has just explained and commanded what Jesus Christ died for - what God's Grace and Salvation is for:
  • Christ freed us from sinfulness and is cleansing (God's work) a special earnestly/zealously committed to good works
  • Christ's cleansed special people are living (Christian's cooperative work) self-controlled, righteous, godly lives doing good works
All this focus on Grace that provides initial Salvation through Faith misses what Grace Salvation is really for - what Jesus Christ our Savior really died for.

This godly living in good works is what Paul is targeting re: God's Grace:

NET Titus 1:1 From Paul, a slave of God and apostle of Jesus Christ, to further the faith of God's chosen ones and the knowledge of the truth that is in keeping with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the ages began.

Coming full circle back to what I was saying re: knowledge:
  • When Paul says, "the faith of God's chosen ones" - he's speaking of the Faith that was originated and perfected/completed by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (Heb12:2) and that was once for all handed down to His Holy Ones (Jude1:3). He's talking about the Gospel in its full scope with all of its instruction that Jesus Christ - God's Grace came teaching us (Titus2:11-14) above.
  • When Paul says "and the knowledge of Truth which is in accordance with godliness" he's making these 2 statements tied together with "and" parallel. IOW The Faith - the Gospel - that Jesus Christ handed down to us - the teaching God's Grace Jesus Christ came teaching - is the knowledge of Truth re: godliness - living godly doing good works - that cause The Faith - The Gospel - the Teaching of God's Grace our Savior to look attractive.
  • This is too long already but look at 1Tim3:16 to see that Jesus Christ is the living example of godliness. A full harmonized study of godliness lead me to see it explained as, 'living a willingly obedient, righteous, holy life as Jesus Christ did.
  • "knowledge" here is an emphasized knowledge that also through a full harmonized study I came to translate as "practical/experiential knowledge. Unlike knowing all things about the bike - godliness - God's Grace Jesus Christ our Savior came teaching us how to ride the bike - how to do godliness - so we can actually ride the bike - live godly lives zealously committed to good works - making the teaching of God our Savior attractive in all things.
That's God's Grace and God's Salvation.
You would think no one would complain about doing something for Him.
I agree with you.

I also wonder why professing Christians seem hell-bent on pushing an incomplete picture of Grace and Salvation that Jesus Christ - God's Grace Himself - our Lord and Savior died to provide and accomplish.
 

PaulThomson

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Ask yourself first how God was with you when you got saved (since you say you are):

1) Did you automatically respond to Jesus' voice and immediately begin to follow HIm wherever He led you?

2) Did Jesus need to win over your trust?

3) Is it possible within you that you might never trust Jesus (in any area of your life)?

This doesn't have to be textbook knowledge. These are questions you can answer yourself from your own experience if you're really saved.
No.
Yes.
Yes.
 

studier

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Did a village save me ? Yes.
My progress toward faith in Jesus was moved along by many influences, including God's.
Is a village still saving you - are you still progressing in salvation in faith being moved along by many influences, including God?
 

Cameron143

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Did a village save me ? Yes.
My progress toward faith in Jesus was moved along by many influences, including God's.
It only took 1 person to save you; albeit, a very special person. God may have employed a veritable plethora of people to bring you to this understanding, but only 1 person has saved anyone.
 

PennEd

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2ndTimeIsTheCharm said:
Please read this verse carefully:

John 6:37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

In this sentence, there are actually TWO groups of people being described here: 1) those the Father gives to Jesus, and 2) whoever else comes to Jesus.



A shepherd gives his sheep to his son.
"OK, son, they are all yours now."

If this is parabolic, and based on how things work in real life experience, does that mean that every sheep the father gave will automatically respond to the son's voice and immediately begin to follow the son wherever the son leads them? Or does the son now need to win over the trust of the sheep? And is it possible that maybe some of the father's gifted sheep will never trust him?
It means just what it says.

EVERY sheep the Father gives the Son are forever saved. Full stop.
 

Gideon300

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I agree this sheep was one of His children. And that’s a very important point because Jesus is the one telling this story and JESUS says that the “shepherd” (Jesus). LOST one of His sheep verse 4. In spite of the fact that YOU SAY “God will never lose one of His” Jesus says He did lose one. You are contradicting the Son of God. Are you calling Jesus a liar? Because you are not saying the same thing that Jesus is saying.

The point is that this parable shows a “sheep” of Jesus being “lost.” In Jesus’s own words. Jesus even says the “shepherd” acknowledges the sheep was LOST in verse 6. He says, “I have found my sheep WHICH WAS LOST.” AND YEY YOU SAY God will never lose one of His. Not true. According to Jesus..

Yes, Jesus found him and brought him back after he REPENTED. Verse 7 makes the point that this sheep repented but the other 99 needed no repentance. Heaven was rejoicing because THIS sheep repented. This sheep is called a “sinner.”
1) a sheep of God, can leave the “fold” of Christ the good shepherd. Verse 4
2) this sheep was “lost” physically in the parable and “spiritually” in verse 7
3) this sheep was called a sinner. Verse 7
4) this sheep “repented” before he was restored to the fold of the shepherd. Verse 7
These are the facts of the parable in Jesus’s own words.

I will have to believe Him over you.
You seem to forget that the lost sheep was Israel, not the church.
 

studier

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You conveniently neglected the part that was BIGGGGLY HIGHLIGHTED!

He will draw you to Him and seek you UNTIL HE FINDS YOU.

Is God incapable of finding you when you go astray?

Jesus will lose NONE of those His Father gives Him.
So you agree we are talking about a saved person the Father gave Jesus, that left the flock and potentially is lost forever.

YOU, are saying that it isn't true that ALL that the Father gave Him will never be permanently lost, and that Jesus is incapable of finding them even though He says He won't stop searching for them UNTIL HE FINDS THEM.

The real question in these debates is, why do you so desperately WANT to believe that God will lose One of His, and ultimately toss one of His kids into hell? Why?
What am I missing? Why are we mixing 2 sets of instruction?

Repentance is what identifies the lost sheep, coin, and son that God seeks.
 

PennEd

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Apr 22, 2013
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What am I missing? Why are we mixing 2 sets of instruction?

Repentance is what identifies the lost sheep, coin, and son that God seeks.
Pretty cool how that coin repented that it got lost, and rolled out from under the couch all by itself!

Thanks for pointing that out, and proving that Jesus seeks, and finds ALL that are His.
 

studier

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Pretty cool how that coin repented that it got lost, and rolled out from under the couch all by itself!

Thanks for pointing that out, and proving that Jesus seeks, and finds ALL that are His.
No comment on mixing 2 sections of Scripture?

Apart from repentance was the lost coin His?
 
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Those who remain in what they heard from the beginning (the gospel) demonstrate that faith was firmly rooted and established from the start. Now those who do not remain demonstrate otherwise. Just like in 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 we see that saving belief in the gospel holds fast to the gospel in contrast with believing in vain which is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose.

Those who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe the gospel). Their belief was never firmly rooted and established from the start. Hence, do not remain, continue.
Those who remain in what they heard from the beginning (the gospel) demonstrate that faith was firmly rooted and established from the start. Now those who do not remain demonstrate otherwise.

You treat John 15 as if it were describing a person pre-determined to be in the vine and to continue in it but that is not at all what the verse is saying. Jesus was not telling them to keep the Law but to trust in, have confidence in, rely upon, depend upon HIM.

5 I I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing. The Master told the disciples that they could not bear fruit apart from active union with Him
(John 15:5)
They had to do something. What they had to do is ABIDE REMAIN CONTINUE in union, continue to believe the gospel. As long as they did the life-giving "sap" of eternal life would flow. The main point of the metaphor was that the life was not UNCONDITIONAL like a static contract. It was a living thing more like a marriage. If you think we are LOCKED into this just read the next verse.
6 If anyone DOES NOT REMAIN in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and BURNED.
(John 15:5)

Verse 6 presents to us the possibility that we can also choose NOT TO REMAIN IN Him. In that case we will not continue to be an appendage of the Vine but no longer being a part we will be THROWN AWAY. The very fact that a branch which HAD originally BEEN organically connected to the Vine CAN be "thrown away" shows that, at that point, it was detached. The final fate of someone who does not continue in Him is to be incinerated. This is not speaking about the fire of purification. Burning the branches we cut off is how unproductive dead branches are disposed of

Jesus' teaching takes for granted that we have the choice of either abiding in Christ or not. When Jesus tells us to ABIDE, REMAIN, CONTINUE in Him. He uses the present tense of the imperative mood which tells us we can through depending on the Spirit continue in Christ and realize eternal life. As Paul said, 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.…
(Romans 8:13-14).
 

PaulThomson

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It only took 1 person to save you; albeit, a very special person. God may have employed a veritable plethora of people to bring you to this understanding, but only 1 person has saved anyone.
You are begging the question. You are assuming exhaustive divine determinism when you claim that God was the cause of every influence in my life towards coming to faith in Christ. My experience, without assuming exhaustive divine determinism, is that there were many people and events that led me eventually to a trust in Christ. For instance, the interpretation of biblical prophecies and texts by the British Israelites and Worldwide Church of God sects attracted me to reading the Bible, even though their prophetic theories are way off track IMO. Did God teach me the heresies of British Israelism to draw me to Christ?
 

PaulThomson

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It means just what it says.

EVERY sheep the Father gives the Son are forever saved. Full stop.
I think there is room for disagreement over "what what it says" means. You are assuming it can mean only what you want it to mean. I am willing to concede all the things it could possibly mean. and then select the meaning that seems most reasonable contextually.
 

PaulThomson

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Is a village still saving you - are you still progressing in salvation in faith being moved along by many influences, including God?
Yes. Christ, the Holy Spirit and many of the people I mix with in the church, and even many unbelievers are edifying, encouraging me and teaching me in my walk with Jesus toward greater Christlikeness.