Is there any other group or are there any other individuals besides the elect who believe in Jesus that are proven to ultimately be saved?

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Is there any other group or are there any other individuals besides the elect who believe in Jesus

  • Other groups or individuals besides the elect are proven to ultimately be saved.

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Oct 19, 2024
4,633
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USA-TX
#81
Did God command Saul to destroy the Amalekites?
Now you are introducing the doctrine of justified war, about which I have the following thoughts:

War and Capital Punishment

We are saved by faith (EPH 2:8-9), but God’s grace is not cheap, so genuine saving faith IS followed by good works (EPH 2:10, cf. JM 2:17). By cooperating with God’s Word = Holy Spirit (PHP 2:13) and rejecting evil desires (2TM 2:22), we can be a “good soldier of Christ Jesus” (2TM 2:3), spiritually trained and “equipped for every good work” (2TM 3:17). Speaking of being a soldier and good works leads us to address the following question: Is military soldiering a good work? Can we be both a good soldier of Christ and a military soldier?

The Bible does not condemn any occupation other than prostitution, and notice that Paul here (and Jesus in MT 8:5-13) spoke of soldiering without condemning it, and such silence speaks volumes! This silence leaves us with the freedom and consequent responsibility to evaluate vocations including soldiering. The most relevant scriptural references are RM 13:1-5 and 1PT 2:13-14. Pacifists cite Jesus’ command to turn the other cheek (in MT 5:39) and Paul’s instruction to overcome evil with good rather than seek revenge (in RM 12:17-21) as implying that policing and soldiering are wrong, but these passages refer to personal relationships rather than to governmental enforcement of criminal laws.

In the Romans passage, verses 3&4 are the key ones: “Rulers hold no terror [imprisonment or execution—a very contemporary term!] for those who do right, but for those who do wrong… the one in authority… is God’s servant to do you good [this eliminates rulers such as Hitler, Stalin and Saddam Hussein]. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword [means to kill] for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer [murderer, terrorist].” (By the way, “God’s servant” is what the word “Muslim” means.)

Similarly, 1PT 2:14 says that governors “are sent by [God] to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.” This truth applies not only to police forces in cities and states but also to soldiers in national governments, implying that (more godly, though imperfect) nations should punish evil tyrants and terrorists.

Thus, soldiers who serve God’s will to fight in righteous or justified wars to defeat murderers are agents of His wrath (Muslims). Let us note that wrath does not mean a hateful fit of rage, but rather the loving action of righteous anger, such as that displayed by Jesus when he cleared the temple of money-changers (in MT 21:12-13). God’s wrath metes out the just or appropriate consequence for those who choose to behave evilly and hatefully. Thus, any killing or other violent actions we do should be motivated by love: love for God, for divine justice and for the victims of demonic injustice.

We wage war on three levels. Within our own hearts we seek to let God’s love and wisdom overcome temptations to be selfish and foolish (RM 7:23, 2CR 10:3-5, 1PT 2:11). On an interpersonal level, we must bear with one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity and peace of the Holy Spirit (EPH 4:2-3) rather than be deceived by lies and attempts of the ungodly spirit to divide and conquer us (1CR 3:3, 2CR 12:20, GL 5:20). And on a corporate level, we must cooperate and enforce just laws, so that murderers are not allowed to destroy more righteous, though imperfect, people (EX 21:12, 21:23).

Because the Bible contains detailed instructions regarding the punishment of crimes such as murder, it is logical to assume that it would contain a commandment and specific teachings against war if pacifism were correct, but it does not. The OT principle of “life for life” (EX 21:24) indicates that murder is the capital crime for which execution is just, although the NT teaching about forgiveness for minor crimes (TOJ #29 & #36) implies that a society may grant even violent criminals a chance to hear the gospel, repent and be rehabilitated. Some say that capital punishment risks unjust executions, but this concern needs to be balanced with ensuring that a penal system does not encourage unjust murders. (See the essay on Criminal Justice.)

The justification of capital punishment can be applied on an international scale. Godly or civilized nations must cooperate and enforce just laws so that demonic souls like Hitler and Stalin are not allowed to conquer or destroy more righteous, though imperfect, governments. (See TOJ #30.) We have a responsibility as ministers of God and disciples of Christ to share the gospel with people in all nations (MT 28:19) and thereby help them to acquire their God-given rights to life (JN 10:10), liberty (JN 8:32&36) and the pursuit of happiness (JN 15:11). To the extent we are able, we should prevent murder and stop murderous dictators from killing and enslaving people (JM 4:17). As the world’s super-power, may God grant our leaders the courage to use this power with wisdom to show divine love (RM 5:8) for the poor and enslaved by defeating ungodly regimes (TOJ #45&129, RM 14:19).

As we contemplate the deaths of our soldiers and the sorrow of their families during times of military war, may it remind us of the great sacrifices that have been made by those who have gone before us in order to preserve the blessings of freedom for our country and humanity. And may their sacrifice remind us of the sacrifice of Christ (PHP 2:8), whose death one day will free us from the sinful nature that does evil and necessitates war against extremely evildoers, so that there will be “no more death or mourning or crying or pain” (RV 21:4). This recreation of the world is the meaning of Easter, and indeed the reason for the creation of the present universe in the beginning of time. May it begin in our hearts and be evidenced by our lives, to the glory of God.

One way to show divine love is by forgiving repentant people who do wrong (MT 5:39). Another way is by teaching people not to do wrong (HB 12:5-6&11). And a third way is by imposing just consequences for doing wrong. For those who hurt people, confinement may be necessary, and for murderers execution is deserved (RM 13:4), although a society may decide that circumstances warrant extended confinement instead or even efforts to reform them.

The problem is deciding which type of love to apply to various situations, but yes, it seems that God would have commanded Saul to fight the Amalekites and destroy those who did not surrender like the Gibeonites did.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
21,924
7,544
113
63
#82
Now you are introducing the doctrine of justified war, about which I have the following thoughts:

War and Capital Punishment

We are saved by faith (EPH 2:8-9), but God’s grace is not cheap, so genuine saving faith IS followed by good works (EPH 2:10, cf. JM 2:17). By cooperating with God’s Word = Holy Spirit (PHP 2:13) and rejecting evil desires (2TM 2:22), we can be a “good soldier of Christ Jesus” (2TM 2:3), spiritually trained and “equipped for every good work” (2TM 3:17). Speaking of being a soldier and good works leads us to address the following question: Is military soldiering a good work? Can we be both a good soldier of Christ and a military soldier?

The Bible does not condemn any occupation other than prostitution, and notice that Paul here (and Jesus in MT 8:5-13) spoke of soldiering without condemning it, and such silence speaks volumes! This silence leaves us with the freedom and consequent responsibility to evaluate vocations including soldiering. The most relevant scriptural references are RM 13:1-5 and 1PT 2:13-14. Pacifists cite Jesus’ command to turn the other cheek (in MT 5:39) and Paul’s instruction to overcome evil with good rather than seek revenge (in RM 12:17-21) as implying that policing and soldiering are wrong, but these passages refer to personal relationships rather than to governmental enforcement of criminal laws.

In the Romans passage, verses 3&4 are the key ones: “Rulers hold no terror [imprisonment or execution—a very contemporary term!] for those who do right, but for those who do wrong… the one in authority… is God’s servant to do you good [this eliminates rulers such as Hitler, Stalin and Saddam Hussein]. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword [means to kill] for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer [murderer, terrorist].” (By the way, “God’s servant” is what the word “Muslim” means.)

Similarly, 1PT 2:14 says that governors “are sent by [God] to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.” This truth applies not only to police forces in cities and states but also to soldiers in national governments, implying that (more godly, though imperfect) nations should punish evil tyrants and terrorists.

Thus, soldiers who serve God’s will to fight in righteous or justified wars to defeat murderers are agents of His wrath (Muslims). Let us note that wrath does not mean a hateful fit of rage, but rather the loving action of righteous anger, such as that displayed by Jesus when he cleared the temple of money-changers (in MT 21:12-13). God’s wrath metes out the just or appropriate consequence for those who choose to behave evilly and hatefully. Thus, any killing or other violent actions we do should be motivated by love: love for God, for divine justice and for the victims of demonic injustice.

We wage war on three levels. Within our own hearts we seek to let God’s love and wisdom overcome temptations to be selfish and foolish (RM 7:23, 2CR 10:3-5, 1PT 2:11). On an interpersonal level, we must bear with one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity and peace of the Holy Spirit (EPH 4:2-3) rather than be deceived by lies and attempts of the ungodly spirit to divide and conquer us (1CR 3:3, 2CR 12:20, GL 5:20). And on a corporate level, we must cooperate and enforce just laws, so that murderers are not allowed to destroy more righteous, though imperfect, people (EX 21:12, 21:23).

Because the Bible contains detailed instructions regarding the punishment of crimes such as murder, it is logical to assume that it would contain a commandment and specific teachings against war if pacifism were correct, but it does not. The OT principle of “life for life” (EX 21:24) indicates that murder is the capital crime for which execution is just, although the NT teaching about forgiveness for minor crimes (TOJ #29 & #36) implies that a society may grant even violent criminals a chance to hear the gospel, repent and be rehabilitated. Some say that capital punishment risks unjust executions, but this concern needs to be balanced with ensuring that a penal system does not encourage unjust murders. (See the essay on Criminal Justice.)

The justification of capital punishment can be applied on an international scale. Godly or civilized nations must cooperate and enforce just laws so that demonic souls like Hitler and Stalin are not allowed to conquer or destroy more righteous, though imperfect, governments. (See TOJ #30.) We have a responsibility as ministers of God and disciples of Christ to share the gospel with people in all nations (MT 28:19) and thereby help them to acquire their God-given rights to life (JN 10:10), liberty (JN 8:32&36) and the pursuit of happiness (JN 15:11). To the extent we are able, we should prevent murder and stop murderous dictators from killing and enslaving people (JM 4:17). As the world’s super-power, may God grant our leaders the courage to use this power with wisdom to show divine love (RM 5:8) for the poor and enslaved by defeating ungodly regimes (TOJ #45&129, RM 14:19).

As we contemplate the deaths of our soldiers and the sorrow of their families during times of military war, may it remind us of the great sacrifices that have been made by those who have gone before us in order to preserve the blessings of freedom for our country and humanity. And may their sacrifice remind us of the sacrifice of Christ (PHP 2:8), whose death one day will free us from the sinful nature that does evil and necessitates war against extremely evildoers, so that there will be “no more death or mourning or crying or pain” (RV 21:4). This recreation of the world is the meaning of Easter, and indeed the reason for the creation of the present universe in the beginning of time. May it begin in our hearts and be evidenced by our lives, to the glory of God.

One way to show divine love is by forgiving repentant people who do wrong (MT 5:39). Another way is by teaching people not to do wrong (HB 12:5-6&11). And a third way is by imposing just consequences for doing wrong. For those who hurt people, confinement may be necessary, and for murderers execution is deserved (RM 13:4), although a society may decide that circumstances warrant extended confinement instead or even efforts to reform them.

The problem is deciding which type of love to apply to various situations, but yes, it seems that God would have commanded Saul to fight the Amalekites and destroy those who did not surrender like the Gibeonites did.
No I'm not. Even if you believe war was justified, God called for the annihilation of men, women, and children. How was this a manifestation of God's love towards the women and children He commanded to be killed?
 
Oct 19, 2024
4,633
1,032
113
USA-TX
#83
No I'm not. Even if you believe war was justified, God called for the annihilation of men, women, and children. How was this a manifestation of God's love towards the women and children He commanded to be killed?
Not sure what situations you think we have not covered then, but the general moral principle
revealed more clearly in the NT than in the OT is that murder is a sin and God's will is for everyone to repent and choose life.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
21,924
7,544
113
63
#84
Not sure what situations you think we have not covered then, but the general moral principle
revealed more clearly in the NT than in the OT is that murder is a sin and God's will is for everyone to repent and choose life.
I've given 2 instances where God commanded the annihilation of women and children, and I'm wondering why you either say these are manifestations of the love of God or that God's command was misunderstood.
 
Oct 19, 2024
4,633
1,032
113
USA-TX
#85
I've given 2 instances where God commanded the annihilation of women and children, and I'm wondering why you either say these are manifestations of the love of God or that God's command was misunderstood.
Again, because the NT reveals clearly that murder is a sin and God's will is for everyone to repent and choose life.
Also, killing in self-defense or to defeat a murderous nation or as punishment of murderers is not murder.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
21,924
7,544
113
63
#86
Again, because the NT reveals clearly that murder is a sin and God's will is for everyone to repent and choose life.
Also, killing in self-defense or to defeat a murderous nation or as punishment of murderers is not murder.
Murder was a sin in the OT as well. And God's desire has always been for mankind to repent. He has never taken pleasure in the death of people. Despite all that, God commanded large numbers of people, including women and children, to be killed. Not only that, God was wroth with Saul for not doing so, and so much so, He took the kingdom from him. Will you now tell me that the children were guilty of murder, at war with Israel, or that God was loving them by having them killed?
 
Oct 19, 2024
4,633
1,032
113
USA-TX
#87
Murder was a sin in the OT as well. And God's desire has always been for mankind to repent. He has never taken pleasure in the death of people. Despite all that, God commanded large numbers of people, including women and children, to be killed. Not only that, God was wroth with Saul for not doing so, and so much so, He took the kingdom from him. Will you now tell me that the children were guilty of murder, at war with Israel, or that God was loving them by having them killed?
“Despite all that”?!
Do you think God is schizophrenic?
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
21,924
7,544
113
63
#88
“Despite all that”?!
Do you think God is schizophrenic?
2 things can be true at the same time. God can both outlaw murder and desire good for mankind, and call for the annihilation of woman and children. How do we know? The Bible teaches that both are true.
Rather than suggest that what God has declared as true is not true, adapt your understanding of who God actually declares Himself to be.

I have a friend from high school who cannot reconcile that God is loving with the fact that her son died in his teens. For her, God is not loving, but cruel.
You take the opposite tact. You begin with God as loving, so refuse to believe that God commanded the death of women and children.