The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

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Feb 17, 2023
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I see nothing humorous about a doctrine which nullifies the work of Christ Jesus and makes God plan of salvation quite impotent.

But when there is no defense, I guess that is the response.

Who are you replying to? To me? Are you afraid to address me directly because I laughed at your silly reply? So it's on....

What doctrine nullifies the work of Christ Jesus and makes His plan of salvation impotent? Let's go into specifics. Because so far your false doctrine doesn't even allow Jesus to be Lord to the believer - that all they have to do is just make Him their Savior, no need to even submit to Him and make Him their Lord to let Him cause them to become godly and obedient. There's no salvation if He's just your Savior. He MUST be Lord and Savior as well.


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HeIsHere

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May 21, 2022
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I've heard people ask if Jesus was giving an impossible commandment when He commanded the woman to "go, and sin no more". The common response is "No, it's to be taken as Him telling us to strive to do our best and repent when we do sin".

I understand that it makes the most sense to interpret the scripture this way, but I feel like I'm trying to make MY thoughts conform to the bible as opposed to the words in the bible dictating my thoughts.

When I read it, I feel like it is in fact an impossible commandment He gives us. Nevertheless, we are offered redemption through the atonement of Jesus Christ. Maybe I'm being a bit pedantic about it being an impossible commandment?
Agree, I think Christ Jesus was frequently setting an impossible standard so they would hopefully recognize their need for a Savior, so I would agree the "go and sin" no more is very indicting for his audience.

Unfortunately, the church has now once again been permeated by teachings that the cross and resurrection are not sufficient and obedience even through the tribulation is now required or else.

It is just the "works" of Catholicism repackaged and resold again and again.
 
Oct 27, 2016
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That's spot on.

Walking the walk simply means you believe in Jesus.

If you no longer, walk the walk, then you no longer believe in Jesus.

That is not a works based salvation.

Because our salvation belongs to Jesus alone.

Simply, faith without works is a dead faith.
This is where I struggle to reconcile saying "if you don't do works" (walking-the-walk), then you aren't saved (because you don't believe in Jesus). But then immediately after claim it's "not works based".

It appears that if you believe that works (fruit/walking-the-walk) must be present in order to be a true believer of Christ, then it is, at the very least, partially works based. No? How can these two things be true at the same time?

For this reason, I'm convinced that it is through grace and grace alone we are saved. Making a claim that there should be a metric of works in order to be a true believer would just lead me to ask where that threshold is. As HeIsHere mentioned, was the thief on the cross not saved as there was no works/fruit/walking-the-walk?
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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I've heard people ask if Jesus was giving an impossible commandment when He commanded the woman to "go, and sin no more". The common response is "No, it's to be taken as Him telling us to strive to do our best and repent when we do sin".

I understand that it makes the most sense to interpret the scripture this way, but I feel like I'm trying to make the bible conform to MY thoughts as opposed to the words in the bible dictating my thoughts.

When I read it, I feel like it is in fact an impossible commandment He gives us. Nevertheless, we are offered redemption through the atonement of Jesus Christ. Maybe I'm being a bit pedantic about it being an impossible commandment?
I like your line of reasoning. Jesus, in fact, ushered in the ability to go and sin no more. Paul understood this...I live, yet not I; Christ lives in me...
Although, in context, He may have just been telling her to lay off the adultery.
 
Oct 27, 2016
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Agree, I think Christ Jesus was frequently setting an impossible standard so they would hopefully recognize their need for a Savior, so I would agree the "go and sin" no more is very indicting for his audience.

Unfortunately, the church has now once again been permeated by teachings that the cross and resurrection are not sufficient and obedience even through the tribulation is now required or else.

It is just the "works" of Catholicism repackaged and resold again and again.
I love that "so they would recognize their need for a Savior". Great point.
 
Feb 17, 2023
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Agree, I think Christ Jesus was frequently setting an impossible standard so they would hopefully recognize their need for a Savior, so I would agree the "go and sin" no more is very indicting for his audience.

Unfortunately, the church has now once again been permeated by teachings that the cross and resurrection are not sufficient and obedience even through the tribulation is now required or else.

It is just the "works" of Catholicism repackaged and resold again and again.
This is where I struggle to reconcile saying "if you don't do works" (walking-the-walk), then you aren't saved (because you don't believe in Jesus). But then immediately after claim it's "not works based".

It appears that if you believe that works (fruit/walking-the-walk) must be present in order to be a true believer of Christ, then it is, at the very least, partially works based. No? How can these two things be true at the same time?

For this reason, I'm convinced that it is through grace and grace alone we are saved. Making a claim that there should be a metric of works in order to be a true believer would just lead me to ask where that threshold is. As HeIsHere mentioned, was the thief on the cross not saved as there was no works/fruit/walking-the-walk?
I like your line of reasoning. Jesus, in fact, ushered in the ability to go and sin no more. Paul understood this...I live, yet not I; Christ lives in me...
Although, in context, He may have just been telling her to lay off the adultery.

So all of you are saying that we don't even need to submit to God? Because He is the only one that can cause us to become godly and obedient. If you don't submit to Him to let Him do His work in you, then you don't actually have Him as Lord and Savior.

Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, IF indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For IF you live according to the flesh, you will die; but IF by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, IF indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

So if you're not led by the Spirit of God, you're NOT His children God. Being led by Him shows that you are submitting to Him in cooperation with Him. God is not just going to zap you to become godly and obedient without your free will consent.


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Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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So all of you are saying that we don't even need to submit to God? Because He is the only one that can cause us to become godly and obedient. If you don't submit to Him to let Him do His work in you, then you don't actually have Him as Lord and Savior.

Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, IF indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For IF you live according to the flesh, you will die; but IF by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, IF indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

So if you're not led by the Spirit of God, you're NOT His children God. Being led by Him shows that you are submitting to Him in cooperation with Him. God is not just going to zap you to become godly and obedient without your free will consent.


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Actually, God is working in us, willing and doing of His good pleasure...Philippians 2:13. Submitting will certainly make the work go easier as we are to work out what God is working in...Philippians 2:12. But one way or another, through submission or scourging, God will conform us into the image of Christ. He is the firstborn of many brethren, and we shall be like Him.
 

Smoke

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2016
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So all of you are saying that we don't even need to submit to God? Because He is the only one that can cause us to become godly and obedient. If you don't submit to Him to let Him do His work in you, then you don't actually have Him as Lord and Savior.

Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, IF indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For IF you live according to the flesh, you will die; but IF by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, IF indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

So if you're not led by the Spirit of God, you're NOT His children God. Being led by Him shows that you are submitting to Him in cooperation with Him. God is not just going to zap you to become godly and obedient without your free will consent.


🎻
We can submit to God but it doesn't guarantee we will not sin again. You asserted "so all of you are saying that we don't even need to submit to God", but I'm not sure who has said that.

Where we agree is that when we have Christ living within us (accepting Him as our Savior), we naturally want to be obedient to His commandments. I agree that works and good deeds can be evidence of a life turned over to Christ, but they are as "filthy rags" (Isaiah 64:6). We will continue to fall short. Looking at works to justify Christianhood is antithetical to biblical teachings. I'm not implying we SHOULDN'T live biblical standards though. That isn't the same thing.
 
Feb 17, 2023
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Actually, God is working in us, willing and doing of His good pleasure...Philippians 2:13. Submitting will certainly make the work go easier as we are to work out what God is working in...Philippians 2:12. But one way or another, through submission or scourging, God will conform us into the image of Christ. He is the firstborn of many brethren, and we shall be like Him.

You're assuming that just because a person says they're Christian that God is in them to work on them, but Romans 8 shows we shouldn't make such assumptions.

Romans 8 keeps mentioning "IF" so that means we need to check ourselves if we are really are in Him. If it hasn't dawned on you yet, there are some people who don't remain in Christ or have never been in Him. And they still think they're Christians because they haven't tested themselves to see if they are in Christ or not.


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Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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You're assuming that just because a person says they're Christian that God is in them to work on them, but Romans 8 shows we shouldn't make such assumptions.

Romans 8 keeps mentioning "IF" so that means we need to check ourselves if we are really are in Him. If it hasn't dawned on you yet, there are some people who don't remain in Christ or have never been in Him. And they still think they're Christians because they haven't tested themselves to see if they are in Christ or not.


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Sure there are people who aren't actually in Christ. I was only speaking concerning those that are.
 
Feb 17, 2023
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Sure there are people who aren't actually in Christ. I was only speaking concerning those that are.

It's also important to encourage all people who claim to belong to God to see if they really are in Christ.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?

Because testing themselves will help them to see if they are or not. If they're not, they can remedy the situation - they don't have to stay in that unsaved status. They can come to God and receive Him properly.

As Christians, we're not to just care about our own salvation only - we should care about others too. If we see that a person is deluded by false teaching that will only send them to hell, we need to warn them and entreat them to stay on the narrow path.


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Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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It's also important to encourage all people who claim to belong to God to see if they really are in Christ.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?

Because testing themselves will help them to see if they are or not. If they're not, they can remedy the situation - they don't have to stay in that unsaved status. They can come to God and receive Him properly.

As Christians, we're not to just care about our own salvation only - we should care about others too. If we see that a person is deluded by false teaching that will only send them to hell, we need to warn them and entreat them to stay on the narrow path.


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I don't disagree with your last 2 posts, but they don't deal with the comments I initially made. God is at work in saved individuals, whether they cooperate or not.
 
Feb 17, 2023
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I don't disagree with your last 2 posts, but they don't deal with the comments I initially made. God is at work in saved individuals, whether they cooperate or not.

Oh okay - yeah, I don't agree with you. God only works with people who cooperate with Him. He will not disrespect a person's free will who does not want to cooperate with Him. I know you don't believe that. But the Bible constantly gives His followers the choice to let Him work in them and is so in the Christian's daily life.

Also the fact that the Bible is full of warnings to His people to remain in Him, to endure to the end shows that there has to be a conscious willingness to abide in Him - which itself is not a work of the flesh. He would not command us to do that if He thought this was a work of the flesh and condemn us for obeying Him on that.


But anyway, this is why I urge people who claim to be Christian to test themselves to see if they are still in Christ. The bad thing about OSAS is that it doesn't believe that you have to do that when the Bible tells us we should. As a matter of fact, OSAS makes Christians ignore all the warnings in the Bible that are specifically to protect us and our salvation.


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Sep 2, 2020
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We can submit to God but it doesn't guarantee we will not sin again. You asserted "so all of you are saying that we don't even need to submit to God", but I'm not sure who has said that.

Where we agree is that when we have Christ living within us (accepting Him as our Savior), we naturally want to be obedient to His commandments. I agree that works and good deeds can be evidence of a life turned over to Christ, but they are as "filthy rags" (Isaiah 64:6). We will continue to fall short. Looking at works to justify Christianhood is antithetical to biblical teachings. I'm not implying we SHOULDN'T live biblical standards though. That isn't the same thing.
“We can submit to God but it doesn't guarantee we will not sin again.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:36-38‬ ‭

“For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:13‬ ‭KJ

“And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:42-43‬ ‭

“For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, And every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:9-12‬ ‭

We can confess now in Christ when we realize we have sinned but we can’t use Christ as an excuse to keep on sinning neglecting Godly sorrow into repentance . In Christ when we sin and know it it should make us sorrowful so we will stop. If we look at Jesus death as the reason we don’t need to change we’ve got the wrong idea ….it’s the reason we can change.

Paul wrote a scathing letter then later a second explaining this why it was so harsh

“For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭7:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

after the first letter harshly reprimanding them for the open sin among the church he’s now written a letter to comfort them and explain his heartfelt decision to write the first letter regarding the sinner they had been proud of and celebrating openly . Teaching them about sin and repentance in the church
 

Lamar

Well-known member
May 21, 2023
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How do you read this verse.

Galatians 5:21-22
Envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you,
that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love,
joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness.
From left to right.

I read it as a warning. The saved are not free from the need to be aware of the oil in our lamps.

To not be like the ungraceful servant who lost the forgiveness of his debt.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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Oh okay - yeah, I don't agree with you. God only works with people who cooperate with Him. He will not disrespect a person's free will who does not want to cooperate with Him. I know you don't believe that. But the Bible constantly gives His followers the choice to let Him work in them and is so in the Christian's daily life.

Also the fact that the Bible is full of warnings to His people to remain in Him, to endure to the end shows that there has to be a conscious willingness to abide in Him - which itself is not a work of the flesh. He would not command us to do that if He thought this was a work of the flesh and condemn us for obeying Him on that.


But anyway, this is why I urge people who claim to be Christian to test themselves to see if they are still in Christ. The bad thing about OSAS is that it doesn't believe that you have to do that when the Bible tells us we should. As a matter of fact, OSAS makes Christians ignore all the warnings in the Bible that are specifically to protect us and our salvation.


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Romans 8:29 says we are being conformed to the image of Christ. A couple of things for consideration:
...conformed has within its meaning what one does to another, apart from any effort on the part of the thing being conformed...potter and clay...
...we neither know how we need to transformed, or how to do so. Even if we knew, we lack the capability.
While it is definitely better to submit, God can lead us into being conformed, or employ chastening as per Hebrews 12. One of God's purposes in saving us is to conform us into the image of Christ.
 
Feb 17, 2023
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We can confess now in Christ when we realize we have sinned but we can’t use Christ as an excuse to keep on sinning neglecting Godly sorrow into repentance . In Christ when we sin and know it it should make us sorrowful so we will stop. If we look at Jesus death as the reason we don’t need to change we’ve got the wrong idea ….it’s the reason we can change.

Paul wrote a scathing letter then later a second explaining this why it was so harsh

“For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭7:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

after the first letter harshly reprimanding them for the open sin among the church he’s now written a letter to comfort them and explain his heartfelt decision to write the first letter regarding the sinner they had been proud of and celebrating openly . Teaching them about sin and repentance in the church

That was perfectly stated!

It bears pointing out what you wrote: If we look at Jesus death as the reason we don’t need to change we’ve got the wrong idea ….IT'S THE REASON WE CAN CHANGE.


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Inquisitor

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Mar 17, 2022
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At what point in time, a day, a month, a year, two years.. ten years, at the point of physical death or does God say "too late?"

And you still have not told me how a person can assume a debt once the debt has been expunged from the account?
The exact point during a person's life when that person is no longer reflecting God's love.

Is the exact point at which that person is not bearing the fruit of the Spirit.

1 John 4:8
The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

Are you saying that a person is saved even though they do not know God?

The new covenant condition that must be satisfied by us is that we believe.

If we believe then we are commanded by Jesus to love others.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we [l]believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another,
just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.