Understanding God’s election

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Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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Unfortunately, that is where most discussions on CC end up--if they ever end.
I wish we all would at least agree regarding the essential Christian creed,
but a few folks don't even seem to care about doing that.
That's because we don't agree on the essentials.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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Unfortunately, that is where most discussions on CC end up--if they ever end.
I wish we all would at least agree regarding the essential Christian creed,
but a few folks don't even seem to care about doing that.
Why do you prefer creeds or confessions over the source of Truth? Don't you know that creeds, confessions, catechisms and the like are third party interpretations of the Word of Life? You'd rather trust 3rd party documents rather than the Word of God?
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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And so the prayer of Jesus for unity continues to be ungranted.
And the command of Paul for unity of the Spirit is disobeyed.
Only the Spirit can produce unity. We are tasked to keep the unity He produces.
God can produce unity whenever He pleases. Generally He works gradually through history.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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And so the prayer of Jesus for unity continues to be ungranted.
And the command of Paul for unity of the Spirit is disobeyed.
Here's a very interesting little "factoid" for you, which I learned recently from reading an article about the accursed heretic Paula White who recently hijacked Easter with her vile "prosperity gospel": 26 of the 27 NT books contain warnings about false teachers and/or false prophets. And of course, the OT is literally loaded with such warnings, condemnations, judgements about these kinds of people, since apostate Israel was always being led astray by these types.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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Here's a very interesting little "factoid" for you, which I learned recently from reading an article about the accursed heretic Paula White who recently hijacked Easter with her vile "prosperity gospel": 26 of the 27 NT books contain warnings about false teachers and/or false prophets. And of course, the OT is literally loaded with such warnings, condemnations, judgements about these kinds of people, since apostate Israel was always being led astray by these types.
We agree on that fact, but not on the definition of heresy and apostasy.
Again, Jesus, Paul and I desire spiritual unity based on God's requirement of belief in the true Gospel:

The kerygma/GRFS should be every Christian’s creed, and only belief in this crucial truth should be viewed as a test for orthodoxy or heresy. As Paul wrote in Romans 10:9, “If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Conversely, judgments concerning a person’s spiritual orientation or ultimate destiny should not be made on the basis of didachaic or secondary doctrines. (If any judgment is made, it should begin with a self-examination per Matt. 7:1&5, 2Cor. 13:5-8).

A major reason many Christians throughout history have not manifested the love and unity of God’s Spirit (Eph. 4:3) as well as they should is because of failure to realize this truth. If they did, it would free them to speak honestly and fellowship without becoming unduly upset about relatively minor issues. They would receive God’s blessing as peacemakers, who draw inclusive circles around people based on the kerygma rather than denominational lines between them due to didachaic differences. Jesus prayed for spiritual unity (cf. John 17:20-23, “May they be one…”). Thus, unity regarding the Gospel is more important than accuracy regarding doctrinal details.

The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in 2Cor. 4:5 & Col. 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:

  1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
  2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (MT 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (JN 3:18, RM 2:5-11).
  3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (RM 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1CR 15:14-28).
  4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
  5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (JN 14:6, 17&26, RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
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And so the prayer of Jesus for unity continues to be ungranted.
And the command of Paul for unity of the Spirit is disobeyed.
You can disagree on what the essentials are, and you can disagree on the essentials themselves, and still love one another and love God and trust Jesus Christ. If someone thinks there need to be agreement on doctrinal factoids for their to be unity of the Spirit, they still do not know as they ought to know.
1Co 8:2
If any man thinketh that he knoweth anything, he knoweth not yet as he ought to know;
 
Oct 19, 2024
4,674
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USA-TX
You can disagree on what the essentials are, and you can disagree on the essentials themselves, and still love one another and love God and trust Jesus Christ. If someone thinks there need to be agreement on doctrinal factoids for their to be unity of the Spirit, they still do not know as they ought to know.
1Co 8:2
If any man thinketh that he knoweth anything, he knoweth not yet as he ought to know;
Well, the other Paul indicated that believers should not be yoked with those who do not believe in Jesus as Christ and Lord.
(2Cor.6:14-17, Acts 16:30-31)
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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We agree on that fact, but not on the definition of heresy and apostasy.
Again, Jesus, Paul and I desire spiritual unity based on God's requirement of belief in the true Gospel:

The kerygma/GRFS should be every Christian’s creed, and only belief in this crucial truth should be viewed as a test for orthodoxy or heresy. As Paul wrote in Romans 10:9, “If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Conversely, judgments concerning a person’s spiritual orientation or ultimate destiny should not be made on the basis of didachaic or secondary doctrines. (If any judgment is made, it should begin with a self-examination per Matt. 7:1&5, 2Cor. 13:5-8).

A major reason many Christians throughout history have not manifested the love and unity of God’s Spirit (Eph. 4:3) as well as they should is because of failure to realize this truth. If they did, it would free them to speak honestly and fellowship without becoming unduly upset about relatively minor issues. They would receive God’s blessing as peacemakers, who draw inclusive circles around people based on the kerygma rather than denominational lines between them due to didachaic differences. Jesus prayed for spiritual unity (cf. John 17:20-23, “May they be one…”). Thus, unity regarding the Gospel is more important than accuracy regarding doctrinal details.

The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in 2Cor. 4:5 & Col. 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:

  1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
  2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (MT 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (JN 3:18, RM 2:5-11).
  3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (RM 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1CR 15:14-28).
  4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
  5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (JN 14:6, 17&26, RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).
So, if we could all just get it figured out like you, then we could be united? I disagree that it's His word that unites us, His word doesn't unite us on this site. It is Him that unites us; His word points us too Him, it is what is used to saved us, the hearing of His word, but we are united in the Spirit. Even those in the Spirit have disagreements about His word, but it's God the Spirit that guides us to all truth. I know it sounds like I'm degrading Gods word, or trying to make it lesser, but I'm not. I'm only saying that we are only united in truth when we enter the kingdom when we are born-again and made spiritually alive and reconnected with Him. It's His word that saves, but the Spirit unites, He unites us with Himself and with each other.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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USA-TX
So, if we could all just get it figured out like you, then we could be united? I disagree that it's His word that unites us, His word doesn't unite us on this site. It is Him that unites us; His word points us too Him, it is what is used to saved us, the hearing of His word, but we are united in the Spirit. Even those in the Spirit have disagreements about His word, but it's God the Spirit that guides us to all truth. I know it sounds like I'm degrading Gods word, or trying to make it lesser, but I'm not. I'm only saying that we are only united in truth when we enter the kingdom when we are born-again and made spiritually alive and reconnected with Him. It's His word that saves, but the Spirit unites, He unites us with Himself and with each other.
So what part do you not have figured out?
His word is love, and love is manifested by oneness per John 13:35 & 17:21-24.
God's Spirit is love and guides us to GW beginning with the Gospel.
It sounds like you have a divisive spirit, because otherwise you would agree that
"repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord" means being born-again.
Nothing in what the elaboration figures out disagrees with "It's His word that saves, but the Spirit unites",
unless by "but" you are indeed degrading GW and divorcing GW from the HS.