Understanding God’s election

[Cameron143]

This is good but it's not relating to why Jesus explained what He did concerning the LAW.

It explains it exactly. He was speaking before the cross about how He would fulfill the law and set up a new ordering of things. What the law could not accomplish due to the weakness of the flesh, He would do Himself.

 

[lrs68]

I don't think your comments come from Biden - but perhaps they come from Kamala........

Do you know why God made them eat a Kosher diet besides it was a different diet than everyone else?

 

[lrs68]

It explains it exactly. He was speaking before the cross about how He would fulfill the law and set up a new ordering of things. What the law could not accomplish due to the weakness of the flesh, He would do Himself.

And in order to show what Jesus did requires teaching what the LAW meant. That is still relevant today.

 

[Cameron143]

And in order to show what Jesus did requires teaching what the LAW meant. That is still relevant today.

It's helpful, but far from necessary. I just explained it apart from the law.

 

[lrs68]

It's helpful, but far from necessary. I just explained it apart from the law.

If someone doesn't understand what sin is and means they might not realize why they need Jesus. But show them what the LAW means and then add Jesus and more would comprehend.

 

[Cameron143]

If someone doesn't understand what sin is and means they might not realize why they need Jesus. But show them what the LAW means and then add Jesus and more would comprehend.

I'm not talking about unbelievers. We already established way back in our conversation we were talking about believers. Hence, my original observation about not being under the law.
You have been given on this thread by multiple people years of learning. I hope you avail yourself of it.
Again, thanks for the discussion. Grace and peace.

 

[lrs68]

I'm not talking about unbelievers. We already established way back in our conversation we were talking about believers. Hence, my original observation about not being under the law.
You have been given on this thread by multiple people years of learning. I hope you avail yourself of it.
Again, thanks for the discussion. Grace and peace.

I mostly read from the others what is the typical beliefs of the Reformed. That actually doesn't bother me because sometimes you will see some thinking outside of the box of their typical doctrinal beliefs. But the Churches biggest responsibility is to create disciples like Jesus commanded in Matthew 28. And of course helping those grow from Milk to Meat. But winning souls is the number one mission. And when I get involved in discussions I think along those lines because it is my assumption that other true followers of God are thinking the same way.

 

[Cameron143]

I mostly read from the others what is the typical beliefs of the Reformed. That actually doesn't bother me because sometimes you will see some thinking outside of the box of their typical doctrinal beliefs. But the Churches biggest responsibility is to create disciples like Jesus commanded in Matthew 28. And of course helping those grow from Milk to Meat. But winning souls is the number one mission. And when I get involved in discussions I think along those lines because it is my assumption that other true followers of God are thinking the same way.

Actually, the church's primary responsibility is to teach. Jesus builds the church. If you read the great commission, the emphasis is on teaching. This is what makes disciples of converts.

 

[lrs68]

Actually, the church's primary responsibility is to teach. Jesus builds the church. If you read the great commission, the emphasis is on teaching. This is what makes disciples of converts.

And preaching the LAW to Grace is teaching.

 

[lrs68]

If we think about it all that is left to see fulfilled by the Church is Preaching to ALL NATIONS and the fulfillment of Joel 2 when God pours out His Spirit upon ALL flesh... which is more than the 3,000 in the Book of Acts.

In Acts only Peter preached so the fulfillment of men\women (hand maidens) having visions and old men having dreams wasn't fulfilled.

So the Church has the opportunity to be a part of mass conversions in a very short period of time.

 

[Rufus]

Thank you for the work that you did in gathering this information. It is a compelling story, and one that I will certainly save and study more carefully.
The question of salvation for children will probably continue right up to the time of Christ's return. I will admit that we all see through glass dimly, especially on this issue. It is natural for man to look at a young child and see nothing but innocence, but we do not see as God sees.
Although I will not address each reference individually, many of your examples if not all, are based on the children of His chosen people. Take Deut 1:39 for example. God is punishing His people for loosing faith. However, He did not include the children. They would inherit the land as God promised, maintaining a remnant of God's people.
You also had a reference to Rom 9:11. Let's expand this a bit to be Rom 9:10-13.

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” Now ask yourself – If it had been God's plan for Esau to die at the age of 6 weeks, would he have been saved or was he chosen for destruction prior to birth?


It is for reasons like this – that I cannot go along with Age-of-accountability. It is either true all the time, or age is not a factor in God's decision. I prefer to believe that God has always planned to have a people who belong to Him, and He will always preserve a remnant to accomplish this.

The Canons of Dort makes the following statement which I believe to be true:
Since we must make judgments about God’s will from his Word, which testifies that the children of believers are holy, not by nature but by virtue of the gracious covenant in which they together with their parents are included, godly parents ought not to doubt the election and salvation of their children whom God calls out of this life in infancy.
Granted this is not the word of God, and was included to be a comfort to His people upon losing a child. However, since God will maintain His remnant, it stands to reason that it will be done through His people.

Yes, all my examples are limited to God's COVENANT people. But isn't the heart and soul of election God predestining people to be brought into a personal, covenant relationship with him? David was confident that he would one day be reunited with his son who God took from him. David must have understood that the child was in a covenant relationship with the Lord already. There are no redeemed people of God who are not in a covenant relationship with him -- whether these people be grown adults or tiny infants who die an untimely, premature death.. God is first and foremost a covenant God who loves his people with a covenant of love -- the kind of love described in Rom 8:38-39.

However, even though I have been attending a Presbyterian church for many years, I do not hold to traditional Covenant Theology. I don't see any compelling evidence in scripture that teaches that God automatically saves the children of believing parents. But God will certainly save ALL of Abraham's spiritual descendants, i.e. the children of promise. And these children, both very young and old, are scattered all over the world and are citizens of an invisible, ubiquitous nation without borders, i.e. The catholic (universal) Church.

 

[Rufus]

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Verse 18 explains that the LAW doesn't pass away until HEAVEN AND EARTH pass. We know that won't happen until our own future. So even though we have Grace the LAW is still not finished.


Verse 19 even explains we should continue to teach the LAW and who teaches the LAW will be considered GREAT in Heaven.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

^

Heaven and earth has not passed away.

But my portion of the discussion is concerning how Grace reflects upon the Law and can be explained in the example of Jesus like we are able to see how His DBR reflects festivals like Passover, First Fruits, Pentecost, and others and like His Return reflects the Harvest Seasons and the Threshing of Wheat and separating Tares and such.

You didn't answer my question. So, let me rephrase it. Are Christians under the Mosaic Covenant Law in order to be saved? OR...are Christians under the Mosaic Covenant Law because they have been saved by Christ's perfect, holy, righteous life life (of law-keeping), his death, burial and resurrection?

 

[lrs68]

You didn't answer my question. So, let me rephrase it. Are Christians under the Mosaic Covenant Law in order to be saved?

NO!

OR...are Christians under the Mosaic Covenant Law because they have been saved by Christ's perfect, holy, righteous life life (of law-keeping), his death, burial and resurrection?

NO!

 

[BillyBob]

David must have understood that the child was in a covenant relationship with the Lord already.

I agree 100%.

However, even though I have been attending a Presbyterian church for many years, I do not hold to traditional Covenant Theology. I don't see any compelling evidence in scripture that teaches that God automatically saves the children of believing parents. But God will certainly save ALL of Abraham's spiritual descendants, i.e. the children of promise. And these children, both very young and old, are scattered all over the world and are citizens of an invisible, ubiquitous nation without borders, i.e. The catholic (universal) Church.

I myself attend a PCA church and I would agree with you that God does not automatically save the children of believing parents. I would also say that I do not believe that God automatically condemns the children of non-believing parents. He has a plan for each and every person.
I do, however, believe that the covenant makes it (more likely) that the children of believers will be used to continue God's remnant of elect believers. No guarantee, just more likely!
I simply disagree with those who say “all children who have not reached an age of understanding will be saved”. I cannot understand reaching this conclusion based on the word of God.

 

[Rufus]

I don't think your comments come from Biden - but perhaps they come from Kamala........

Are you suggesting that he's eating too many Word Salads?

 

[Rufus]

NO!

NO!

How 'bout the Law of Christ? Are we under it?

 

[Rufus]

Do you know why God made them eat a Kosher diet besides it was a different diet than everyone else?

Do you know why Kosher is out and non-Kosher is in during this New Covenant age?

 

[lrs68]

How 'bout the Law of Christ? Are we under it?

We do obey love God with all that we are and love your neighbors as yourself.

 

[lrs68]

Do you know why Kosher is out and non-Kosher is in during this New Covenant age?

Because God made everything good. But we still don't eat many things like eagles, Ravens, crows, lions, elephants, and well actually too many things to list.

 

[Magenta]

Do you know why Kosher is out and non-Kosher is in during this New Covenant age?

Mark 7 verses 13-15 You nullify the word of God by the tradition you have handed down. And you do so in many such matters.” Once again Jesus called the crowd to Him and said, “All of you, listen to Me and understand: Nothing that enters a man from the outside can defile him; but the things that come out of a man, these are what defile him.”