At what point in our salvation is the blood of Christ applied?

[Pilgrimshope]

Everyone has it, but not everyone knows it. They have to first hear, then believe.

Amen it’s available for all and to all but only believers of the gospel will receive atonement and remission of sins

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-39, 41‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[studier]

We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel

Folks who teach we are saved by believing and obeying are teaching salvation by faith and works.

Huh?

 

[studier]

The Greek words for faith "pistis" and believe "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works.

"pistis" actually has some range of meaning and like many words and phrases in the Bible it takes some context and some harmonization of Scriptures to determine what it means and includes (the underlines are mine):

Bauer-Danker, Greek-English Lexicon of the NT (BDAG)

[BDAG] πίστις (pistis)
• πίστις, εως, ἡ (Hes., Hdt.+; ranging in meaning from subjective confidence to objective basis for confidence).

1. that which evokes trust and faith

a. the state of being someone in whom confidence can be placed, faithfulness, reliability, fidelity, commitment​

​

b. a solemn promise to be faithful and loyal, assurance, oath, troth​

​

c. a token offered as a guarantee of someth. promised, proof, pledge​

2. state of believing on the basis of the reliability of the one trusted, trust, confidence, faith in the active sense=‘believing’

a. God: πίστις θεοῦ (cp. Jos., Ant. 17, 179.—Cp. π. καὶ φόβος ὁ τοῦ θεοῦ Theoph. Ant. 1, 7 [p. 72, 26]) faith, trust, confidence​

​

b. Christ​

​

α. of belief and trust in the Lord’s help in physical and spiritual distress; oft. in the synopt. gospels:​

​

β. of faith in Christ, designated by the addition of certain words.​

c. πίστις can also be characterized by an objective gen. of the thing: ἡ πίστις τοῦ ὀνόματος αὐτοῦ faith in his (Jesus’) name​

​

d. πίστις is found mostly without an obj., faith, firm commitment​

​

α. as true piety, genuine devotion (Sextus 7a and 7; ParJer 6:7), which for our lit. means being a Christian​

​

β. Hb 11:1 defines πίστις as ἐλπιζομένων ὑπόστασις, πραγμάτων ἔλεγχος οὐ βλεπομένων. There is here no qu. about the mng. of π. as confidence or assurance (s. 2a above), but on its relation to ὑπόστασις as its predication s. under that word.—(Ps.-Aristot., De Mundo 6, 18 interprets πιστεύειν in someth. as incapability to see someth. that is apparent only to God.) Paul contrasts walking διὰ εἴδους e;ἶδος 3) as the lower degree, with διὰ πίστεως περιπατεῖν 2 Cor 5:7 (s. KDeissner, Pls. u. die Mystik seiner Zeit2 1921, 101ff). On the other hand πίστις is on a higher level than merely listening to Christian preaching Hb 4:2.​

​

γ. πίστις abs., as a Christian virtue, is often coupled w. others of the same kind, esp. oft. w. ἀγάπη (agape):​

​

δ. faith as fidelity to Christian teaching. This point of view calls for ἔργα (work) as well as the kind of πίστις that represents only one side of true piety:​

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ε. Ro 14:22 and 23 π. as freedom or strength in faith, conviction​

​

ζ. In addition to the πίστις that every Christian possesses (s. 2dα above) Paul speaks of a special gift of faith that belongs to a select few 1 Cor 12:9. Here he understands π. as an unquestioning belief in God’s power to aid people with miracles, the faith that ‘moves mountains’​

3. that which is believed, body of faith/belief/teaching

 

[sawdust]

The real irony is that every time someone provides a verse that speaks of belief they're also supplying a verse that speaks of obedience. There is no genuine belief in God apart from obedience to God.

There is no faith apart from obedience. Faith comes from the word (Rom.10:17). Faith is the word working in us which is the power source of overcoming, initially death (the Gospel Rom.1:16 ) then the evils of our generation within and without (ie.sanctification). Faith is the end result of repenting, believing and obeying the word. This is why we are saved by grace through faith. No other way. There is nothing that can be added to that, it is all God's working toward and within us. There is no faith apart from truth. We can believe many things, as evidenced by forums like these, but it does not all translate to faith unless what we believe is true.

my 5c worth

 

[sawdust]

We by no means should ignore any scripture.

It is the labeling of pet general verses into all-encompassing assertions of human redemption that is the issue and this is what you are doing.

The gospel cannot be reduced to a bumper sticker.

Your verses do not express:

That Jesus is God incarnate or the necessity to believe that He rose from the dead.

The need to confess verbally that Jesus is Lord.

The absolute need to repent.

The need for the remission of sins through baptism.

The command to stay faithful unto death.

These commands are not optional nor are they natural events in the life of a Christian.

There are "Christian" groups who accept your general verses but not the need for some or all the the above.

IOW, I believe even you accept at least some of the above things that are not listed on your verses.

In the end it is faith alone regeneration theology that is wrong. Is faith part of the regeneration process, of course. It is the false notion that we need to whittle down the gospel into a bumper sticker format that is heresy.

I suggest you go back and read (with understanding) all I have said in this thread before you continue accusing me of things I don't believe to be true.

 

[sawdust]

Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. Which is not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which "follow."

Folks who teach we are saved by believing and obeying are teaching salvation by faith and works. Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I basically defined faith "as" obedience and any act of obedience accomplished I would simply call it faith. Back them I would have said faith "is" baptism, faith "is" multiple acts of obedience, faith "is" works which is a critical error that culminates in works salvation/works righteousness.

I once shared Ephesians 2:8,9 with a Roman Catholic and told him we are saved by grace through faith, not works and that Roman Catholic answered, "I know that." But as we discussed it further, I could tell he misinterpreted Ephesians 2:8,9 as saved by grace through faith "infused" with good works and just not saved by works of the law. That same Roman Catholic denied that the Roman Catholic church teaches salvation by faith AND WORKS and then he contradicted himself by sharing this with me below in blue.

We are saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is not simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being water baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments etc..

His argument about faith being defined as and INCLUDES these works above (yet at the same time denying that Roman Catholicism teaches salvation by faith and works) is just sugar-coated double talk and equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) and works. Roman Catholics basically teach that we are saved by faith "infused" with works and I hear people who attend the church of Christ say that we are saved by faith "conjoined" with works. Both groups re-define faith to "include" works and end up trying to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

The Greek words for faith "pistis" and believe "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in/have faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. Now although this belief/faith results in actions appropriate to the belief/faith (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful -- Matthew 13:23) the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief/faith.

Sounds to me we are pretty much in agreement. As far as I'm concerned the only works involved in faith are the works of God which, is why no-one can boast.

 

[studier]

There is no faith apart from obedience. Faith comes from the word (Rom.10:17). Faith is the word working in us which is the power source of overcoming, initially death (the Gospel Rom.1:16 ) then the evils of our generation within and without (ie.sanctification). Faith is the end result of repenting, believing and obeying the word. This is why we are saved by grace through faith. No other way. There is nothing that can be added to that, it is all God's working toward and within us. There is no faith apart from truth. We can believe many things, as evidenced by forums like these, but it does not all translate to faith unless what we believe is true.

my 5c worth

Worth the 5c.

As best I understand you, I may tweak a few things. Your last part is questionable though:

Because of what is revealed in forums like these, I'd make sure to speak of Faith as Genuine Faith or something similar because there are simply many versions of "faith" in people's thinking these days. I also like Rom1, 10, 15, 16 which can read Faith-Obedience.

I'd change "Faith is the end result of repenting, believing and obeying the word." to at least get this established "[Genuine] Faith is believing and obeying the Word." Then, whether we change it or not, we can be assured to sit back and see the "works salvation" allegations streaming forth along with the stripping of pistis of nearly all meaning.

 

[sawdust]

Huh?

If you read the rest of his/her post you will understand better. In the first quotation they are saying basically the same thing you said to me in post #56. God's wants all to believe the Gospel so when we do we have obeyed.

The second bit you quoted is referring to obedience in things like baptism, partaking in the Lord's supper etc.

These things ought be the result of salvation not the cause. Too many see them as the cause which is what @mailmandan was referring to as I understand their post.

 

[studier]

Sounds to me we are pretty much in agreement. As far as I'm concerned the only works involved in faith are the works of God which, is why no-one can boast.

This is why I said the last part of your post was questionable. As best I can tell so far, I'm more in line with @TrustandObey, but I did like some of what you said re: Faith.

 

[sawdust]

Worth the 5c.

As best I understand you, I may tweak a few things:

Because of what is revealed in forums like these, I'd make sure to speak of Faith as Genuine Faith or something similar because there are simply many versions of "faith" in people's thinking these days. I also like Rom1, 10, 15, 16 which can read Faith-Obedience.

I'd change "Faith is the end result of repenting, believing and obeying the word." to at least get this established "[Genuine] Faith is believing and obeying the Word." Then, whether we change it or not, we can be assured to sit back and see the "works salvation" allegations streaming forth along with the stripping of pistis of nearly all meaning.

I hear what you're saying and can agree. I realise many speak of faith as being a variety of versions. For me, it is very specific. In my mind faith that is not genuine is not faith but the type of pseudo faith that James speaks of in 2:18.

As an example, I can say "I believe the sun will rise tomorrow" but I cannot say "I have faith the sun will rise tomorrow" because I have no idea what the Lord will do tomorrow. For all I know it may well be a different Son that will rise tomorrow. (insert praying hands)

There is absolute surety in (genuine) faith.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see.

Hebrews 10:22
let us draw near with a sincere heart in the assurance that faith brings, because we have had our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed in pure water.

The sort of faith that James speaks of in 2:18 is a "faith" born of arrogance, having an over confident belief in one's own opinion rather than the genuine understanding that comes from humbly and diligently studying God's word. Also, faith is not static, it grows. The faith I have today is far greater than the faith I had thirty years ago. Thanks be to the Lord.

 

[sawdust]

This is why I said the last part of your post was questionable. As best I can tell so far, I'm more in line with @TrustandObey, but I did like some of what you said re: Faith.

Well @TrustandObey hasn't given me anything to work with, he's only told me I'm wrong. He has yet to supply any verses that speak of obedience that leads to salvation apart from faith.

So you don't think changing one's mind (repentance) precedes faith? Or maybe a better way of saying it is repentance and obedience is part of the believing process that leads to faith. Of course, it might need be said if you had no thought on an issue then you may not need to change your mind at all simply obey and believe.

 

[mailmandan]

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. *Notice the order.

Mark 1:15 - The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe the gospel. *Notice the order.

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. *Notice the order.

 

[Blain]

obedience cannot precede faith, Jesus didn't say obey and be saved he said to repent and believe is it that hard to grasp?

 

[studier]

If you read the rest of his/her post you will understand better. In the first quotation they are saying basically the same thing you said to me in post #56. God's wants all to believe the Gospel so when we do we have obeyed.

The second bit you quoted is referring to obedience in things like baptism, partaking in the Lord's supper etc.

These things ought be the result of salvation not the cause. Too many see them as the cause which is what @mailmandan was referring to as I understand their post.

First, based upon your use of "ought" (my highlight above) but more upon your agreement with @mailmandan, we are in disagreement.

"ought" is an ambiguous word and one I always retranslate in the English Text when I see it. The Greek word speaks of necessity. The "ought" ambiguity normally rests interpretively on making the "results" optional and coincides with a loss of rewards tradition, maybe a never saved tradition (which may be the better discussion), seemingly most often a version of security I don't agree with.

If Faith in God and obedience to God are virtually inseparable - and they are - so, Faith-Obedience- then at what point are any results of initial Faith-Obedience optional - or "ought to be the result"? Faith-Obedience does not turn into faith. If we're created for Good Works to be done in Faith-Obedience - and we are - then Good Works are not optional (maybe to varying degrees - some 30, 60, 100-fold Luke8).

If we're not doing Good Works God created for us to do, then how are we saved and being saved? If we're not obeying God's commands in Faith-Obedience and we were allegedly saved by Grace through Faith-Obedience, then how are we in Faith-Obedience and being saved?

This whole allegation of we don't do anything is a farce. We're created to do something called Good Works Faith-Obedience in cooperation with God who is working in us. The commands are active - we abide, we walk, we endure, we love, etc... and under Grace we are enabled to do just that. If we're not actively doing what we were created to do, then how can we say we were newly created?

Are we keeping ourselves saved? Primarily no - apart from Him - not abiding in Him - we can do nothing. Secondarily yes - He commands us to abide in Him and we live in Faith-Obedience doing Good Works. That's how cooperation works.

We begin our relationship with Him in Faith-Obedience to His Gospel which Faith-Obedience includes other things I'll let others stand up for and maybe agree and maybe disagree. James' version of Faith is what real Faith is. If God says He's done the Work necessary to save we who could not do that work - and He does say this - then there's nothing to argue about. We are entered into Christ by Grace through Faith-Obedience and are immediately in James' instruction re: Faith-Obedience + Good Works because that's what we're created for. It's not that Faith-Obedience was ever anything but Faith-Obedience. It's just that we could not do the Works only God could do for our Salvation.

We make James secondary as Luther did (to say the least), but James and Paul are in agreement re: Faith-Obedience + Works. By wording in Rom4:2 I think Paul is dealing with clarifying James re: our initial Faith-Obedience but this gets into the conditional clause language there, so all for now.

 

[studier]

I hear what you're saying and can agree. I realise many speak of faith as being a variety of versions. For me, it is very specific. In my mind faith that is not genuine is not faith but the type of pseudo faith that James speaks of in 2:18.

As an example, I can say "I believe the sun will rise tomorrow" but I cannot say "I have faith the sun will rise tomorrow" because I have no idea what the Lord will do tomorrow. For all I know it may well be a different Son that will rise tomorrow. (insert praying hands)

There is absolute surety in (genuine) faith.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see.

Hebrews 10:22
let us draw near with a sincere heart in the assurance that faith brings, because we have had our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed in pure water.

The sort of faith that James speaks of in 2:18 is a "faith" born of arrogance, having an over confident belief in one's own opinion rather than the genuine understanding that comes from humbly and diligently studying God's word. Also, faith is not static, it grows. The faith I have today is far greater than the faith I had thirty years ago. Thanks be to the Lord.

As I said, it looks like we're close re: Genuine Faith - Faith-Obedience. I don't normally differentiate with "belief" vs. "faith" as you are doing above, because pistis can be translated as faith or belief or trust. I prefer the way you identified Faith as genuine vs. pseudo.

There are some very interesting words used in Heb11:1-2 that I think go much deeper than the above translation, but good enough for now.

 

[studier]

Well @TrustandObey hasn't given me anything to work with, he's only told me I'm wrong. He has yet to supply any verses that speak of obedience that leads to salvation apart from faith.

So you don't think changing one's mind (repentance) precedes faith? Or maybe a better way of saying it is repentance and obedience is part of the believing process that leads to faith. Of course, it might need be said if you had no thought on an issue then you may not need to change your mind at all simply obey and believe.

I'll leave you and @TrustandObey to hash things out between yourselves. I'm finding the discussion interesting.

I see repentance different ways in different contexts. If we take it simply as change of mind comparing with Faith-Obedience ("Faith"), I normally wouldn't argue whether it precedes Faith, or Faith and repentance are simultaneous. I admittedly split enough hairs as it is. There'd likely be some context to consider in any verse(s) to discuss.

 

[studier]

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. *Notice the order.

Mark 1:15 - The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe the gospel. *Notice the order.

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. *Notice the order.

First, who is being commanded?
Then, what is the repentance being commanded - what are they repenting about?
Then, without looking at each verse yet, "and" in Greek does not always denote sequence as we normally apply it.
Then, as we proceed into the NC, is "repent" always used in the same way?

 

[sawdust]

First, based upon your use of "ought" (my highlight above) but more upon your agreement with @mailmandan, we are in disagreement.

"ought" is an ambiguous word and one I always retranslate in the English Text when I see it. The Greek word speaks of necessity. The "ought" ambiguity normally rests interpretively on making the "results" optional and coincides with a loss of rewards tradition, maybe a never saved tradition (which may be the better discussion), seemingly most often a version of security I don't agree with.

If Faith in God and obedience to God are virtually inseparable - and they are - so, Faith-Obedience- then at what point are any results of initial Faith-Obedience optional - or "ought to be the result"? Faith-Obedience does not turn into faith. If we're created for Good Works to be done in Faith-Obedience - and we are - then Good Works are not optional (maybe to varying degrees - some 30, 60, 100-fold Luke8).

If we're not doing Good Works God created for us to do, then how are we saved and being saved? If we're not obeying God's commands in Faith-Obedience and we were allegedly saved by Grace through Faith-Obedience, then how are we in Faith-Obedience and being saved?

This whole allegation of we don't do anything is a farce. We're created to do something called Good Works Faith-Obedience in cooperation with God who is working in us. The commands are active - we abide, we walk, we endure, we love, etc... and under Grace we are enabled to do just that. If we're not actively doing what we were created to do, then how can we say we were newly created?

Are we keeping ourselves saved? Primarily no - apart from Him - not abiding in Him - we can do nothing. Secondarily yes - He commands us to abide in Him and we live in Faith-Obedience doing Good Works. That's how cooperation works.

We begin our relationship with Him in Faith-Obedience to His Gospel which Faith-Obedience includes other things I'll let others stand up for and maybe agree and maybe disagree. James' version of Faith is what real Faith is. If God says He's done the Work necessary to save we who could not do that work - and He does say this - then there's nothing to argue about. We are entered into Christ by Grace through Faith-Obedience and are immediately in James' instruction re: Faith-Obedience + Good Works because that's what we're created for. It's not that Faith-Obedience was ever anything but Faith-Obedience. It's just that we could not do the Works only God could do for our Salvation.

We make James secondary as Luther did (to say the least), but James and Paul are in agreement re: Faith-Obedience + Works. By wording in Rom4:2 I think Paul is dealing with clarifying James re: our initial Faith-Obedience but this gets into the conditional clause language there, so all for now.

Based on what you have said here, I don't think you understood what I said at all. It is not faith-obedience, it is believe which is obedience which results in faith. The word generates faith, not us. No amount of our believing, obedience, head stands or whatever else you want to throw in there generates faith. Faith comes from the word! Partaking in rituals (even if they are warranted) or doing good works will not generate faith. If we do those things we do them because we have faith not in order to get faith and be saved or to stay saved. Any work done outside of faith is not of God and does not please Him.

In regards to what I bolded in your post? You take your next breath because of grace. Whatever you think we do "secondarily", we do because God's grace enables it. Being able to do nothing apart from Him means exactly no thing. James is not saying we must have faith plus good works, he is saying if you have faith, genuine, biblical, saving faith you will produce good works as the natural outworking of your new life in Christ. Claiming to have faith and actually having faith are not always the same thing. This is why our "faith" is tested to see if it is genuine or whether we are just kidding ourselves. (1 Peter 1:7)

 

[sawdust]

I'll leave you and @TrustandObey to hash things out between yourselves. I'm finding the discussion interesting.

I see repentance different ways in different contexts. If we take it simply as change of mind comparing with Faith-Obedience ("Faith"), I normally wouldn't argue whether it precedes Faith, or Faith and repentance are simultaneous. I admittedly split enough hairs as it is. There'd likely be some context to consider in any verse(s) to discuss.

Well, if you find a context of repentance that doesn't require one to change how they think about the issue, I would be interested to hear it.

peace be with you.

 

[mailmandan]

First, who is being commanded?
Then, what is the repentance being commanded - what are they repenting about?
Then, without looking at each verse yet, "and" in Greek does not always denote sequence as we normally apply it.
Then, as we proceed into the NC, is "repent" always used in the same way?

3340. metanoeó ►
Lexicon
metanoeó: Repent
Original Word: μετανοέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: metanoeó
Pronunciation: meh-tah-no-EH-oh
Phonetic Spelling: (met-an-o-eh'-o)
Definition: Repent
Meaning: I repent, change my mind, change the inner man (particularly with reference to acceptance of the will of God), repent.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
repent.
From meta and noieo; to think differently or afterwards, i.e. Reconsider (morally, feel compunction) -- repent.

see GREEK meta

see GREEK noieo

HELPS Word-studies
3340 metanoéō (from 3326 /metá, "changed after being with" and 3539 /noiéō, "think") – properly, "think differently after," "after a change of mind"; to repent (literally, "think differently afterwards").

http://biblehub.com/greek/3340.htm