At what point in our salvation is the blood of Christ applied?

[studier]

Believers practice righteousness BECAUSE they are righteous and not in order to become righteous - "descriptive."

Believers love BECAUSE they are born of God and not in order to become born of God - "descriptive."

So, you ignore the commands. Interesting and troubling.

• Yet the command in 1John3:7 in context is to not let anyone mislead you that doing righteousness is not necessary when in fact the one who is [continuing] doing righteousness is righteous like our Lord God.
  • So, you're saying it's OK to be deceived about the necessity for a Child of God to be actually doing righteousness - living righteously? I doubt you are, but it seems appropriate to ask.
• Yet 1John4:7 commands Christians to love one another and makes it clear as to why.
  • This "not in order to become born of God" is a complete insertion into this verse. It's not even a part of the discussion.
  • The command and instruction are for Christians as God's Children to know the vital necessity and obligation for them to love one another which our Lord commanded, and our Father repeated earlier in this letter.

Why in the world would you negate the commands?

FWIW, I see commands as actual commands for us to live by under Grace and that we will be held to account for. IOW, they're what some would call prescriptive and once that's clear they can be a mirror for us to know what a real Christian looks like - so descriptive.

But, as @Pilgrimshope pointed out, these descriptives are unnecessary and as I added can be a sidetrack and used as an excuse to start playing with commands. What you're doing with them seems to be evidence of this. Please don't delete parts of the Text, especially clear parts of God's commanded will!

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Lol...
My point earlier, or at least my feeble attempt, is that walking according to the Spirit isn't a continuous set of volitional choices but an act of volition to follow. For example, if I say...follow me to the store...do you continually try to figure out whether to turn left or right or straight? Or having made the decision to follow, do you simply follow along enjoying my company?
As I walk with God, the latter is my experience. I don't stop to make sure I'm following directions. I'm following directions because I'm following Him.

“if I say...follow me to the store...do you continually try to figure out whether to turn left or right or straight? Or having made the decision to follow, do you simply follow along enjoying my company? “

well id say we should learn what he said about what to do is usually my point and then convert to what he taught believers to believe and do ….

so things like this for me tend to shape how I believe about God and salvation and myself ect so for instance

See this to me doesn’t say “ just say I’m saved and don’t think I need to do anything

“Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; and walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them. For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

see what I’m saying is just an example we should listen to “ what Paul is saying “ rather than find scriptures that seem to support our thoughts .and let our thinking fall in line with what he’s teaching there.

the important thing is that we make sure it’s the teachings of Jesus that form our faith and not those of Moses and the law or anyone telling us of another gospel.

It isn’t this

“And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭21:23-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Not equal wound and wrong for wrong …. But it’s what Jesus taught instead

“Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:38-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Don’t repay blow for blow and wound for wound but instead forgive and don’t take revenge leave that for the lord and trust him to make all things right in the end

“Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭12:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

aid anyones sins need to be punished and paid for God will handle it vengeance isn’t ours but it belongs to the one who gave his life for us ….

the idea bro isnt working it’s learning and trusting and believing him as we follow him and yes of course enjoy his company but we can’t do that in our sins gotta leave hen behind for something better ahead

God is our source and all but what he teaches is we need to believe and do…..we need to do and believe as we learn from him . That’s all I’m saying of course we can’t be saved without Jesus death and resurrection but we also need to hear the things he said are true about life and death salvation and damnation ect and not reject those things

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

look what happens when we listen to him and learn from him believing ….

“if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

and be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:21-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we need to hear the gospel because of we do he can change our thinking from flawed to the truth directly from God meant to save and redeem our souls from slavery to sin and condemnation of death .

God was promising that the word that he spoke when he came as a man , would be what changed thier hearts and filled them with his spirit , he would also die as a atonement for sin but he also promised to renew thier minds and hearts with his word from his mouth ….

the gospel he preached sayong “ this is what Your Heavenly Father is like …. This is what he asks if you and this is what he promises you ….my kingdom is like this …forgivness is like this ect

those things if we believe in Jesus should be Gods word for us . What I’m saying is it isn’t about works but about faith in Jesus we need to listen to what he’s saying in the gospel about God and us and salvation eternal life ect because it’s this

“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This understanding is in his doctrine his sermons and teachings ect …when he’s teaching them about God ….

“And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth :He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life:

and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:32-36‬ ‭

My belief is it’s all about Jesus and the gospel the apostles also taught the same things Jesus did but in some areas offer a more revealed account of something or add to what Jesus had said beforehand as he said they would do later

awe learn from the gospel itself that we actually do need to apply hos word and doctrine to our lives because of we don’t it won’t yield the same result as of we do . We learn from the gospel tbat we have a role and responsabilities in this as we mature . There’s a time when your correct like a babe we just don’t worry about anything or what we’re doing we just exist in daddy’s lap but later comes a time we need to do bc bores and work dads farm because we’re becoming adults

 

[Mem]

Some more attempts at Microsoft AI:

What are the possible translations of obedience of faith in Romans 1:5?

Romans 1:5 contains the phrase "obedience of faith," which has been translated in various ways across different Bible versions. Some possible translations include:​

• "Obedience to the faith" (KJV, NKJV) – This translation suggests that faith is the object of obedience, meaning people are called to obey the teachings of the faith.
• "Obedience of faith" (NASB, ESV) – This rendering implies that obedience stems from faith, highlighting faith as the source of obedience.
• "The obedience that comes from faith" (NIV) – This translation interprets faith as producing obedience, emphasizing the transformative nature of faith.
• "Obedient trust in Jesus" (MSG) – A more paraphrased version that combines faith and obedience into a trusting relationship with Christ.

MY Note: AI is looking at English translations. The MSG translation is trending into combining faith and obedience. The KJV & NKJV are prioritizing obedience. There are more potential translations of the phrase "obedience of faith".

Some deeper questioning:

What are all of the ways the genitive phrase "obedience of faith" can be translated:

The genitive phrase "obedience of faith" (ὑπακοὴν πίστεως) in Romans 1:5 can be translated in several ways, depending on how the genitive case is understood. Here are some possible interpretations:

• Objective Genitive – "Obedience to faith"
  • This translation suggests that faith is the object of obedience, meaning people are called to obey the teachings of faith.
• Subjective Genitive – "Obedience that comes from faith"
  • This interpretation sees faith as the source of obedience, implying that true faith naturally leads to obedience.
• Epexegetical Genitive – "Obedience, that is, faith"
  • This view treats faith as explaining obedience, meaning that faith itself is the obedience being described.
• Appositional Genitive – "Faithful obedience"
  • This translation merges faith and obedience into a single concept, suggesting that true faith inherently includes obedience.

My Notes: As AI says, these are "some" of the ways this phrase can be translated. There are 30+ ways it can be translated but many of them can be quickly discounted. IMO the 4 that AI listed are 4 of the best choices. Some comments:

• The translated Greek phrase is "obedience faith" - "faith" is in the Genitive Case and the base fallback translation of the Genitive is to insert "of" so "obedience [of] faith". But from there the work is to classify the actual meaning of the Genitive. The above list is a partial list of these classifications. IOW, if the translators were doing all the work they'd be translating with more words or providing indications of their interpretations for clarity. But this is simply not how translations are normally done. This is why there are multitudes of commentaries some of which do some of the necessary interpretive work.
• Most seem to interpret the phrase as a Subjective Genitive. I came to disagree based upon several factors in the NC including the way Paul uses faith and obedience interchangeably. Hebrews does the same. Then there are other factors.
• The Objective Genitive is interesting, and IMO has strengths but is not the best translation of Rom1:5 because "faith" would be better stated as "the faith" - to obey the faith would to be to obey the teachings, but this seems to be pushing the language and inserting what's not really there.
• I came some time ago to view this phrase as Epexegetical or Appositional. Based upon how Paul and Hebrews use faith and obedience as I've been saying, virtually synonymously, or interchangeably, or in parallel. my interpretive choice is Appositional.

Hopefully you'll see that I'm not making things up. I've been working on translations for many years. There's a method to the madness as they say.

Iron sharpens iron and J.A.R.V.I.S is of great use to Ironman.
Looking to Abraham's faith which is counted for righteousness, for example, he obeyed God because he believed God's ability to raise the dead (Romans 4:17). In trying to ascertain into which category that might fall, and finding difficulty, I'm inclined to think it encompasses all of those possibilities.

 

[studier]

I need you to resolve an issue in translation. The Koine Greek word, "pistis", is translated as believe, faith, trust. The problem is that, "faith", in a translation invokes the idea of works. Whereas the word, "trust", is more strongly connected with belief or believing. Can you find how, "pistis", was understood in the first century, i.e., how the authors used "pistis" in their letters. There is a also a serious problem with the methodology of how translating Greek is taught. That being from traditional texts. Here is where I believe the problem occurred. The Greek was translated into Latin and the early translations were using the Latin translations and translating a step further into German. So the Greek word, "pistis", acquired a more works based edge to it. What do you think? I would translate, "pistis" as believe or belief, exclusively.

Is all of this the query? In the second part of this assuming it's all a part of the query, AI is being fed a point of view rather than being asked a question.

The derivation from peithō is accurate. The Greek from Hebrew emunah is at least partially accurate. I don't recall how many Hebrew words are translated as pistis which shows up several times in the LXX.

I don't agree with the concept of the weight the Latin could have placed on this. Our Greek Lexicons are pretty advanced and up to date based upon an extensive library of Greek writings. See things like the Perseus Digital Library for instance. the BDAG Lexicon that is the basic reference these days has pretty extensive referencing to ancient Greek and onward in time.

One of the issues I see is that AI is compiling for various sources of research including Wikipedia and to know what it's actually drawing from we'd have to look at all the references at such sites.

At the end of all of this re: pistis, BDAG Lexicon on pistis is extensive. I'd copy it for you but it's too lengthy. I posted just the high points here.

I'm OK with "faith" but I'm also fine with "belief" especially since all the instances of the verb are typically translated "believe" vs. "have faith". I am a little troubled by how "faith" all of a sudden is taken as something unique by some when I think "belief" is just as accurate (faith (belief) comes from hearing God's word (which isn't even a great translation, but many use it)).

Also, "faith" seems a good word for other reasons like "the faith once for all delivered to the holy ones" - "the faith" ultimately being the complete Gospel - sounds better than "the belief". But if used more it could become used to since this is how language works over time.

Ultimately "faith" is such a vital word in the NC that for me it's just best to rely on the Lexical data and make sure we're doing extensive study in the Text to see all the ways God uses it and what He applies to it and doesn't apply to it. IMO most of the error in currently dealing with this word stems from the "faith alone" concept stemming from Luther. It had an original meaning in the context of the debate but has IMO become overused and wrongly applied since then.

 

[studier]

Iron sharpens iron and J.A.R.V.I.S is of great use to Ironman.
Looking to Abraham's faith which is counted for righteousness, for example, he obeyed God because he believed God's ability to raise the dead (Romans 4:17). In trying to ascertain into which category that might fall, and finding difficulty, I'm inclined to think it encompasses all of those possibilities.

Some magnitude of versions closer to JARVIS are soon to be in every cellphone.

Before the statement from Gen15 about Abraham that's used in the NC as I recall 3 different times each with a bit different focus, Abram is seen since Gen12 pretty much doing what God tells him to do. Then all the way in Gen26:5 he's still being highlighted for his obedience. If there's a man whose Faith is related to his obedience in the Text, I'd surely highlight Abraham. He's another reason I look at all this discussion re: Faith being divorced from obedience and shrug at times.

 

[Cameron143]

“if I say...follow me to the store...do you continually try to figure out whether to turn left or right or straight? Or having made the decision to follow, do you simply follow along enjoying my company? “

well id say we should learn what he said about what to do is usually my point and then convert to what he taught believers to believe and do ….

so things like this for me tend to shape how I believe about God and salvation and myself ect so for instance

See this to me doesn’t say “ just say I’m saved and don’t think I need to do anything

“Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; and walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them. For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

see what I’m saying is just an example we should listen to “ what Paul is saying “ rather than find scriptures that seem to support our thoughts .and let our thinking fall in line with what he’s teaching there.

the important thing is that we make sure it’s the teachings of Jesus that form our faith and not those of Moses and the law or anyone telling us of another gospel.

It isn’t this

“And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭21:23-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Not equal wound and wrong for wrong …. But it’s what Jesus taught instead

“Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:38-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Don’t repay blow for blow and wound for wound but instead forgive and don’t take revenge leave that for the lord and trust him to make all things right in the end

“Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭12:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

aid anyones sins need to be punished and paid for God will handle it vengeance isn’t ours but it belongs to the one who gave his life for us ….

the idea bro isnt working it’s learning and trusting and believing him as we follow him and yes of course enjoy his company but we can’t do that in our sins gotta leave hen behind for something better ahead

God is our source and all but what he teaches is we need to believe and do…..we need to do and believe as we learn from him . That’s all I’m saying of course we can’t be saved without Jesus death and resurrection but we also need to hear the things he said are true about life and death salvation and damnation ect and not reject those things

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

look what happens when we listen to him and learn from him believing ….

“if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

and be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:21-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we need to hear the gospel because of we do he can change our thinking from flawed to the truth directly from God meant to save and redeem our souls from slavery to sin and condemnation of death .

God was promising that the word that he spoke when he came as a man , would be what changed thier hearts and filled them with his spirit , he would also die as a atonement for sin but he also promised to renew thier minds and hearts with his word from his mouth ….

the gospel he preached sayong “ this is what Your Heavenly Father is like …. This is what he asks if you and this is what he promises you ….my kingdom is like this …forgivness is like this ect

those things if we believe in Jesus should be Gods word for us . What I’m saying is it isn’t about works but about faith in Jesus we need to listen to what he’s saying in the gospel about God and us and salvation eternal life ect because it’s this

“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This understanding is in his doctrine his sermons and teachings ect …when he’s teaching them about God ….

“And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth :He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life:

and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:32-36‬ ‭

My belief is it’s all about Jesus and the gospel the apostles also taught the same things Jesus did but in some areas offer a more revealed account of something or add to what Jesus had said beforehand as he said they would do later

awe learn from the gospel itself that we actually do need to apply hos word and doctrine to our lives because of we don’t it won’t yield the same result as of we do . We learn from the gospel tbat we have a role and responsabilities in this as we mature . There’s a time when your correct like a babe we just don’t worry about anything or what we’re doing we just exist in daddy’s lap but later comes a time we need to do bc bores and work dads farm because we’re becoming adults

I appreciate the response. And I believe we are to do things as Christians. Following Jesus is doing something. Listen to Acts 1:1...of all that Jesus began to DO and to TEACH. In following Christ, we both see what He does and what He teaches.
But Christianity isn't about doing, so much as it is about becoming. God is at work in the believer, continuously conforming him or her into the image of Christ. And it is in His presence that we are changed from glory to glory. Thus, the importance of spiritual disciplines. They aren't spiritual exercises so much as they are the places God meets with us. We pray not because we are commanded, but because our Father who is in secret meets us there. We fellowship with believers because where believers are gathered, Jesus will be found in their midst. We read the word because for our faith to develop it will come by hearing and hearing by the the word of God.
So when I hear people who stress obedience as a means to relate to God, I wonder are they truly trusting in Christ and not on their own effort and endeavor. They seem to want to relate to God on the basis of their actions rather than the actions of Christ on our behalf. Many have even said our relationship with God rests in our actions. But we weren't reconciled to God by our activities. We were reconciled to God by Christ. And we remain reconciled to God in Him.
It just concerns me when people are more concerned with activity than Christ.
As always, appreciate your thoughts on the subject.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The good deeds of the redeemed (those who have done good - John 5:28-29) are not the basis or means by which they obtained salvation but is the evidence of it. A person's conduct, whether good or evil, reveals the condition of his heart.

*Notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life (believers - vs. 24) are described as those who have done good and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil.

If one reads Romans 2:6 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it’s critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved conduct their lives. These good works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath.

*Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means by which we receive eternal life, but the type of deeds expose our hearts.

These good deeds done out of faith are the fruit, but not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 3:24-28; 4:4-6; 11:6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

What did Jesus say in John 3:18? - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already.. Are believers described as "those who have done good" or those who have done evil?" Are unbelievers described as those "who have done evil" or "those who have done good?"

Genuine believers have received with meekness the engrafted word, are saved and are also doers of the word and not hearers only. In John 15:3, Jesus told the disciples they were clean because of the word. Christ has sanctified the church, the body of Christ, and cleansed her with the washing of water by the word, (Ephesians 5:25-26)

“The good deeds of the redeemed (those who have done good - John 5:28-29) are not the basis or means by which they obtained salvation but is the evidence of it. A person's conduct, whether good or evil, reveals the condition of his heart.”

read this again in niv maybe that will be clearer

“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-11‬ ‭NIV‬‬

I haven’t said anything is the basis of salvation I’m saying what Paul is saying above there this part he is t saying “ your works are the basis of anything “ he’s saying this

“ God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” ( saved )

and he’s saying this

“But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. ( not saved)

There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile”

nothing here says anything about this is the basis of salvation and I havent either I’m just agreeing with this principle

“Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭6:7-9‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Rather than saying “ I’ve already got a huge harvest I don’t need to sow anything my deeds have nothing gro do with salvation ect “ I’m just saying it’s always the same principle

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth;

they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭

Im not saying this is the basis for salvation Jesus suffering and death formoir sins is the basis for salvation …..it doesn’t change judgement or mean now what we do doesn’t apply or matter ot matters more now …..


Do you believe these two things ?

“But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is,

and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if you do agree then it shouldn’t be a problem seeing this part

“Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:


but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

hesring God and o eying what he said has always been mankind’s answer since Eden it still is now with the gospel that’s all we really need to understand hear what the lord said abo it salvation and believe it even when it tells you you need to repent and do what he’s saying and you’ll be saved it’s true stuff and simple stuff

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

So, am I saved or not, if: I 'believe, have faith, and trust' in "By Grace Through faith In Christ
(and in His Death, Burial, and Resurrection), According To The Scriptures, For The Glory Of God!"

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Alone? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ​

Amen.

 

[mailmandan]

So, you ignore the commands. Interesting and troubling.

• Yet the command in 1John3:7 in context is to not let anyone mislead you that doing righteousness is not necessary when in fact the one who is [continuing] doing righteousness is righteous like our Lord God.
  • So, you're saying it's OK to be deceived about the necessity for a Child of God to be actually doing righteousness - living righteously? I doubt you are, but it seems appropriate to ask.

• • 
    I'm not ignoring any commands and I'm not saying its OK to be deceived. . 1 John 3:7 - Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. Notice the contrast between children of God and children of the devil. This is descriptive language.
  • 
    [/QUOTE]
• [*]

  Yet 1John4:7 commands Christians to love one another and makes it clear as to why.
  

  • This "not in order to become born of God" is a complete insertion into this verse. It's not even a part of the discussion.
  • The command and instruction are for Christians as God's Children to know the vital necessity and obligation for them to love one another which our Lord commanded, and our Father repeated earlier in this letter.

  [*]

Why in the world would you negate the commands?

Again, I'm not negating these commands. I'm simply pointing out the contrast between children of God (those who know God) and children of the devil (those who do not know God). 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

FWIW, I see commands as actual commands for us to live by under Grace and that we will be held to account for. IOW, they're what some would call prescriptive and once that's clear they can be a mirror for us to know what a real Christian looks like - so descriptive.

I'm talking about prescriptive vs. descriptive in regard to salvation.

But, as @Pilgrimshope pointed out, these descriptives are unnecessary and as I added can be a sidetrack and used as an excuse to start playing with commands. What you're doing with them seems to be evidence of this. Please don't delete parts of the Text, especially clear parts of God's commanded will!

I'm not deleting anything or playing with commands. Believers are given commands to live by yet obeying these commands is not the basis or means by which we obtain salvation. We could never earn our way to heaven based on the merits of our performance. Romans 3:23; 6:23) We need a Savior. ✝️

 

[mailmandan]

“The good deeds of the redeemed (those who have done good - John 5:28-29) are not the basis or means by which they obtained salvation but is the evidence of it. A person's conduct, whether good or evil, reveals the condition of his heart.”

read this again in niv maybe that will be clearer

“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-11‬ ‭NIV‬‬

I haven’t said anything is the basis of salvation I’m saying what Paul is saying above there this part he is t saying “ your works are the basis of anything “ he’s saying this

“ God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” ( saved )

and he’s saying this

“But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. ( not saved)

There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile”

nothing here says anything about this is the basis of salvation and I havent either I’m just agreeing with this principle

“Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭6:7-9‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Rather than saying “ I’ve already got a huge harvest I don’t need to sow anything my deeds have nothing gro do with salvation ect “ I’m just saying it’s always the same principle

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth;

they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭

Im not saying this is the basis for salvation Jesus suffering and death formoir sins is the basis for salvation …..it doesn’t change judgement or mean now what we do doesn’t apply or matter ot matters more now …..

Do you believe these two things ?

“But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is,

and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if you do agree then it shouldn’t be a problem seeing this part

“Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

hesring God and o eying what he said has always been mankind’s answer since Eden it still is now with the gospel that’s all we really need to understand hear what the lord said abo it salvation and believe it even when it tells you you need to repent and do what he’s saying and you’ll be saved it’s true stuff and simple stuff

I already thoroughly covered John 5:28-29 and Romans 2:6:9. In regard to Galatians 6:7-8, the one who is continuously (Greek present tense) sowing to his own corrupt flesh, which is opposed to God and unrenewed by the Holy Spirit shall of the flesh reap corruption.

Our life here is sowing of one kind or another. But he who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life. In opposition to corruption, eternal life is produced by the Holy Spirit in those who put their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ for salvation.

It sounds to me like you are flirting with salvation by works.

In regard to 2 Corinthians 5:10, works will be tested and if anyone’s work which he has built on the foundation endures, (good) he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, (bad) he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." (1 Corinthians 3:13-15)

 

[Pilgrimshope]

• • 
    I'm not ignoring any commands and I'm not saying its OK to be deceived. . 1 John 3:7 - Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. Notice the contrast between children of God and children of the devil. This is descriptive language.

So, am I saved or not, if: I 'believe, have faith, and trust' in "By Grace Through faith In Christ
(and in His Death, Burial, and Resurrection), According To The Scriptures, For The Glory Of God!"

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Alone? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ​

Amen.

View attachment 276108

I appreciate the response. And I believe we are to do things as Christians. Following Jesus is doing something. Listen to Acts 1:1...of all that Jesus began to DO and to TEACH. In following Christ, we both see what He does and what He teaches.
But Christianity isn't about doing, so much as it is about becoming. God is at work in the believer, continuously conforming him or her into the image of Christ. And it is in His presence that we are changed from glory to glory. Thus, the importance of spiritual disciplines. They aren't spiritual exercises so much as they are the places God meets with us. We pray not because we are commanded, but because our Father who is in secret meets us there. We fellowship with believers because where believers are gathered, Jesus will be found in their midst. We read the word because for our faith to develop it will come by hearing and hearing by the the word of God.
So when I hear people who stress obedience as a means to relate to God, I wonder are they truly trusting in Christ and not on their own effort and endeavor. They seem to want to relate to God on the basis of their actions rather than the actions of Christ on our behalf. Many have even said our relationship with God rests in our actions. But we weren't reconciled to God by our activities. We were reconciled to God by Christ. And we remain reconciled to God in Him.
It just concerns me when people are more concerned with activity than Christ.
As always, appreciate your thoughts on the subject.

“I appreciate the response. And I believe we are to do things as Christians. Following Jesus is doing something. Listen to Acts 1:1...of all that Jesus began to DO and to TEACH. In following Christ, we both see what He does and what He teaches. “

right brother I totally I agree with this. truly that’s all we need to do when we believe he died and rose just learn from him and don’t reject it as if he’s not Jesus teaching the truth . That’s going to lead us exactly where he needs us to be.

“All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:27-30‬ ‭

“Following Jesus is doing something.”

“And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭9:23-24, 26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

also of course his apostles were still speaking by his spirit so we want to accept what they taught also . Which helps us understand Jesus doctrine better.

the thing is this though , I think you’ll underersnd my point in Quoting this

“And that servant, which knew his Lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.

For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required:

and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:47-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.”
‭‭James‬ ‭4:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

anyways brother it was nice to discuss a bit with you

Please say a prayer for my family they are really going through some through some hard times at the moment my sister in law has been placed in hospice with stake four esophageal cancer and my younger brother found out last night he has stage four lung cancer .

thanks brother for the good spirit you’ve ALWAYS shone forth in agreement or not …….that is really appreciated

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I already thoroughly covered John 5:28-29 and Romans 2:6:9. In regard to Galatians 6:7-8, the one who is continuously (Greek present tense) sowing to his own corrupt flesh, which is opposed to God and unrenewed by the Holy Spirit shall of the flesh reap corruption.

Our life here is sowing of one kind or another. But he who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life. In opposition to corruption, eternal life is produced by the Holy Spirit in those who put their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ for salvation.

It sounds to me like you are flirting with salvation by works.

In regard to 2 Corinthians 5:10, works will be tested and if anyone’s work which he has built on the foundation endures, (good) he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, (bad) he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." (1 Corinthians 3:13-15)

"]I already thoroughly covered John 5:28-29”
Right I think what’s happening is I’m quoting scripture to show you why I’m saying what I’m saying and then you are one by one trying to eliminate what it says by explaNing what it means in your opinion

which im not saying your doing something wrong or anything but it seems like our style of discussing is t working when I do this it’s to show you a consistent pronciple that’s there no matter who’s teaching about the subject . Because it’s Gods actual word everyone has said it by his spirit since the prophets

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: ….For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; and hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:22, 26-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“God Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

see I’ve only done this so you can’t say well pul was saying this other mysterious thing I need to explain because Hods always been saying the same thing before and after the gospel

“And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:12-13‬ ‭

because your exolaining this away you can’t actually hear my point Paul’s teaching this in Roman’s chapter 2

“Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:36-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

because we have to face judgement he’s teaching them not to judge one other

See ?

“Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. ( sinners judging sinners casting stones when we’re sinners too )

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:1, 3-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

pauls a teacher of the gospel not the law

Jesus

“Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

paul his servant witness and apostle

“But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, And every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:10-13‬ ‭

 

[Cameron143]

“I appreciate the response. And I believe we are to do things as Christians. Following Jesus is doing something. Listen to Acts 1:1...of all that Jesus began to DO and to TEACH. In following Christ, we both see what He does and what He teaches. “

right brother I totally I agree with this. truly that’s all we need to do when we believe he died and rose just learn from him and don’t reject it as if he’s not Jesus teaching the truth . That’s going to lead us exactly where he needs us to be.

“All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:27-30‬ ‭

“Following Jesus is doing something.”

“And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭9:23-24, 26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

also of course his apostles were still speaking by his spirit so we want to accept what they taught also . Which helps us understand Jesus doctrine better.

the thing is this though , I think you’ll underersnd my point in Quoting this

“And that servant, which knew his Lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.

For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required:

and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:47-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.”
‭‭James‬ ‭4:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

anyways brother it was nice to discuss a bit with you

Please say a prayer for my family they are really going through some through some hard times at the moment my sister in law has been placed in hospice with stake four esophageal cancer and my younger brother found out last night he has stage four lung cancer .

thanks brother for the good spirit you’ve ALWAYS shone forth in agreement or not …….that is really appreciated

Will do.

 

[mailmandan]

Please say a prayer for my family they are really going through some through some hard times at the moment my sister in law has been placed in hospice with stake four esophageal cancer and my younger brother found out last night he has stage four lung cancer .

Lifting your sister in law and family up in prayer to the Lord. 🙏

 

[kqr_anointed]

this is a long thread

also born again eyebrows never

 

[PaulThomson]

It's become apparent that, on the surface, we're speaking the same thing, as much as we're reading the same words. That is, faith and obedience is basically synonymous, we can't have one without the other so I'm not sure if I can adequately express my idea of it other than by saying that I believe that faith is the obedience, as saying, 'believe in obedience' rather than 'obey in faith'. I realize how one can so easily be muddled for the other. We've heard it said as it were, 'step out in faith' which suggests that we walk even though we don't know whether the bridge might actually hold. And at first glance it appears that this is what Peter did when he stepped out of the boat. However, I'm not convinced that Peter would've stepped out of the boat if he wasn't sure that the water would hold him up, notwithstanding that He did ask Jesus for assurance before stepping out, but He got the assurance, He believed Jesus' word... and then, of course, he thought again and began to sink which prompted Jesus to ask, in paraphrase, 'why did your faith falter?'

It is my opinion that "His commandments (which are not burdensome, as in not so copious but quite simple) are "believe" here, there, now, then, and believe and believe and don't ever stop believing that He will keep you, and hold you up, until the day that all creation is groaning for its arrival. I truly think that if I asked tomorrow, 'what would you have me do today?' and asked every subsequent day afterward, the answer would, again, be "believe in Me.'

After all, Jesus put the ear back on the centurion which Peter had hacked off. Why would he even bother? Was it for Pete's sake? Or was it for the centurion? for both? for everyone? I think yes. So, I'm not convinced that we can lose our salvation as much as I'm sure that it is needful that our assurance needs to be maintained (as our next steps, usually sooner than later in my case, sink, and that is done by continuously abiding in Him.

The school my wife and I have been working for the last ten years has been struggling to survive and has been forced to relocate three times in the last ten years, with all the attendant costs and the dislocation of staff and students' families involved. My wife was asking about a fleece she laid out regarding the move to the present site, which fleece was miraculously met, so we moved here. But almost immediately the Christian organisation owning the property we are leasing part of began to renege on agreements made before we moved. The relationship is not as one would expect with two Christian ministries sharing the same site. She was asking "Did we make a mistake?"

I thought of Jesus telling the disciples to launch out across the lake saying "Let's go to the other side." On the way, a storm rose up and was swamping the boat in which Jesus was sleeping Matt. 4. Did they make a mistake to head out onto the lake at Jesus' command? And Paul was led by a dream to go to Macedonia Acts 16, where he and Luke's ministry was pretty soon being sabotaged by a divination-possessed girl, and they were soon beaten up and jailed. Had they made a mistake to obey the guideance of the dream?

Our faith is demonstrated by doing what we believe God is instructing us to do, regardless of how the circumstances are or turn out. We need to just keep on living as Christly as we can in whatever circumstances we find ourselves. Why do we not obey God? Because of a spectrum of fears regarding the consequences of doing so. Obeying fear and obeying faith are opposites.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Lifting your sister in law and family up in prayer to the Lord. 🙏

It’s really appreciated thank you bro

 

[PaulThomson]

Please say a prayer for my family they are really going through some through some hard times at the moment my sister in law has been placed in hospice with stake four esophageal cancer and my younger brother found out last night he has stage four lung cancer .

Andrew Wommack Ministries International (AWMI) have free audio teaching available. that I have found 95% well grounded. If you want to fight the cancers, I would recommend your family listen to "God Wants You Well" and "You Already Have It (So Stop Trying To Get It)". They also have videos in a section I think is called "Healing Stories" that you should find encouraging. Testimonies of receiving healing from Jesus. Yes, Jesus wants to heal cancer.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The school my wife and I have been working for the last ten years has been struggling to survive and has been forced to relocate three times in the last ten years, with all the attendant costs and the dislocation of staff and students' families involved. My wife was asking about a fleece she laid out regarding the move to the present site, which fleece was miraculously met, so we moved here. But almost immediately the Christian organisation owning the property we are leasing part of began to renege on agreements made before we moved. The relationship is not as one would expect with two Christian ministries sharing the same site. She was asking "Did we make a mistake?"

I thought of Jesus telling the disciples to launch out across the lake saying "Let's go to the other side." On the way, a storm rose up and was swamping the boat in which Jesus was sleeping Matt. 4. Did they make a mistake to head out onto the lake at Jesus' command? And Paul was led by a dream to go to Macedonia Acts 16, where he and Luke's ministry was pretty soon being sabotaged by a divination-possessed girl, and they were soon beaten up and jailed. Had they made a mistake to obey the guideance of the dream?

Our faith is demonstrated by doing what we believe God is instructing us to do, regardless of how the circumstances are or turn out. We need to just keep on living as Christly as we can in whatever circumstances we find ourselves. Why do we not obey God? Because of a spectrum of fears regarding the consequences of doing so. Obeying fear and obeying faith are opposites.

“Our faith is demonstrated by doing what we believe God is instructing us to do, regardless of how the circumstances are or turn out. We need to just keep on living as Christly as we can in whatever circumstances we find ourselves.”

That’s well said


“Why do we not obey God?”

I would suggest it’s because we don’t believe correctly . We don’t believe we can or need to now , because Jesus died for our sins and we have faith so therefore we don’t need to do what he says we need to do….

people have forgotten that faith doesn’t substitute for obeying Gods word , it’s actually the principle that gives us the strength to overcome temptation and obey Gods word.

Faith is a tool and shield against the works of our enemy but it’s not a replacement for obeying God. It’s the gift he gives us that makes us strong and able and also it’s the principle that even if we sometimes fail in our obedience he won’t give up on us or throw us away he’s set forth doctrine for us to
Obey when they happens.

“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, Whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no guile. ….I acknowledged my sin unto thee, And mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; And thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found:……
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭32:1-2, 5-6‬ ‭


I think a lot of people simply don’t believe we need to do anything God said we need to do , we’re already saved by grace and it can never change whether we do anything or not ……because of being taught that or reading it in a book or hearing someone’s idea …..it’s only my opinion though if we believe right , we will then act right by that faith in us

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Andrew Wommack Ministries International (AWMI) have free audio teaching available. that I have found 95% well grounded. If you want to fight the cancers, I would recommend your family listen to "God Wants You Well" and "You Already Have It (So Stop Trying To Get It)". They also have videos in a section I think is called "Healing Stories" that you should find encouraging. Testimonies of receiving healing from Jesus. Yes, Jesus wants to heal cancer.

I appreciate the thought brother I don’t have the spiritual gift of healing and have never met anyone who does to be honest that I know of . I do believe God can heal anything and that is a spiritual gift so I’m not rejecting it or the guy you’re referring to there I’ve never heard much of him.

Im going to visit my brother and discussing Jesus with my sister in law .tomorrow . Both are believers and have been pretty much lifetime believers . . I’ll be Praying with them together a lot for awhile . if they believe God is willing and able to heal them , I’ll definately pray together with them about it and believe God hears our prayers and is always able .

My prayers for people often and mostly are about non physical things again I have no problem believing God heals and I think if it’s his Will prayer and faith will accomplish it

If it’s his Will and not mine or someone else’s

“saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭22:42‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I feel like it’s a good time to discuss the gospel with them and talk about some things the Bible says about passing away to be honest , my sis n law was asking bout it so I’m going to visit tomorrow with my kjv

We used to talk alot about the Bible in the old days when we’d all cano out together or meet up for holidays . She’s pretty knowledgeable regarding the Bible . And isn’t afraid . And understands the temporary nature of this world and our time here. But she wants to discuss some of what the scripture says regarding a believer dying …. I feel
Like that’s my place wheras healing I’ve never been blessed with a gift such as that