At what point in our salvation is the blood of Christ applied?

[PaulThomson]

cc: @Inquisitor @PaulThomson

Who are those who love God?

Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, start keeping my commandments.
1Jo 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That the one loving God should be loving his brother also.
1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I am loving God, and is hating his brother, he is a liar: for he that is loving not his brother whom he has seen, how can he be loving God whom he has not seen?
1Jo 5:1 Whosoever is believing that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God: and every one that is loving him that begat is loving him also that has been begotten of him.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

We are commanded to repent apart from trusting in Him for redemption.

This mental conviction is a work. It is not baked into the belief of Jesus as Savior.

Faith is not the sole agency of redemption.

A dead faith is not as you have described a "empty profession of faith".

A dead faith is a faith without deeds.

Rahab had sincere faith in the God of the Hebrews but without her deeds her faith was dead.

Her faith was not a "empty profession of faith", it was real, it was sincere but it was not enough to save her.

“We are commanded to repent apart from trusting in Him for redemption.”

yes amen. Repentance is essential and is a very unspoken part of the doctrine these days.

“Faith is not the sole agency of redemption.”

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Gods true grace in the gospel teaches us to repent and live upright lives now in this world and become zealous of doing good works or …..is it really Gods saving grace?

if grace and faith become thought as the reasons we believe we don’t need to hear and obey Gods word we are way off track and probably heard this grace instead

“For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and so denying Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.”
‭‭Jude‬ ‭1:4‬ ‭NIV‬‬


its good to see someone mention repentance.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Almost?

“when you heard about Christ and were taught by him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires;

to be made new in the attitude of your minds;

and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

( now he instructs them how to do that )

Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body. “In your anger do not sin”: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold.

Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer,( people can belong who were thieves but now it’s time to repent and do good ) but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need.

Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed until the day of redemption.

Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:21-32‬ ‭NIV‬‬

 

[PaulThomson]

There are 3 tenses to salvation that often get confused by works-salvationists.

1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification)
2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (progressive or ongoing sanctification)
3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

Saints have been saved. Reprobates were saved at one time (justification), but returned to being ensnared by the devil to do his will (falling away).
Saints are being kept safe from the snares of the devil (sanctification). Reprobates need to be rescued again from the snares of the devil (ensnared by the devil to do his will).
Saints who persevere to the end will be saved from the mortality and decay of this physical body to receive a glorified physical body. (glorification). Reprobates who became unfaithful and did not return to a faith in Christ that works do not enter the kingdom age (will be cast out into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.)

 

[mailmandan]

Don't you think 1John5:3 explains who loves God?

Yes. We show that we love God and that we know God by keeping His commandments. 1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

So, if we work this back, doesn't it explain from John's mindset who knows God and who is born from God?

Yes. Whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. (1 John 4:7)

And unless Paul thinks differently than John and teaches so, or unless Paul is teaching from a different angle in context about who it is who loves God, then all that way back to Rom8:28 the ones who God's Plan works for are for those who love God - those who keep God's commandments and His commandments are not burdensome [to them].

So, keeping His commandments is the demonstrative evidence of our love for God and also that we know God (have a personal relationship with God - John 17:3). The love of God has been poured out in the hearts of believers by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (Romans 5:5)

Keeping God's commandments is obedience language at minimum. And if we look at definitions for "keep" - tēreō - it has some other implications.

To "keep" (Greek word "tereo") His commandments means to guard, observe, watch over.

Strong's Greek: 5083. τηρέω (téreó) -- To keep, to guard, to observe, to watch over

 

[mailmandan]

Saints have been saved. Reprobates were saved at one time (justification), but returned to being ensnared by the devil to do his will (falling away).

Show me from scripture where reprobates were saved at one time. In Romans 8:30, we read - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty.

In Titus 1:16, we read - They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. That doesn't sound like saved at one time to me.

2 Timothy 3:8 - Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. Nothing there about saved at one time either.

Saints are being kept safe from the snares of the devil (sanctification). Reprobates need to be rescued again from the snares of the devil (ensnared by the devil to do his will).

Saints are preserved forever. (Psalm 37:28)

Saints who persevere to the end will be saved from the mortality and decay of this physical body to receive a glorified physical body. (glorification).

Those who preserve to the end demonstrate they truly are saints. In Hebrews 3:14, we read - For we have become partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence firm to the end.

*Notice that the wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end. It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end. Now what about the faltering Hebrews who end up departing from God after beginning with some level of confidence and profession of loyalty, but then later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

{QUOTE] Reprobates who became unfaithful and did not return to a faith in Christ that works do not enter the kingdom age (will be cast out into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.)[/QUOTE] Reprobates are unfaithful and never were faithful. Saints are not reprobates. Authentic faith in Christ continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. Jesus is the door. (John 10:9) He is not a revolving door. Either we have faith in Christ, are a saint and are preserved forever or else we are not.

 

[studier]

Those who preserve to the end demonstrate they truly are saints. In Hebrews 3:14, we read - For we have become partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence firm to the end.

No chance of failure?

 

[mailmandan]

No chance of failure?

Failure to obtain the grace of God. Hebrews 12:15 - See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no "root of bitterness" springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled.

 

[studier]

Failure to obtain the grace of God. Hebrews 12:15 - See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no "root of bitterness" springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled.

No chance of failure in the language of Heb3:6 & 14?

 

[mailmandan]

No chance of failure in the language of Heb3:6 & 14?

No failure/losing salvation.

 

[studier]

No failure/losing salvation.

Yet the conditional clauses there do provide for the chance of failure. It's clear in the Greek.

 

[mailmandan]

Yet the conditional clauses there do provide for the chance of failure. It's clear in the Greek.

Hebrews 3:8-10 says, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore, I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it. Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So, we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.

*Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. NOT later destroyed those who stopped believing, but DID NOT BELIEVE.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [Greek meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, in which we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been and now are a partaker of Christ" (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end." Holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

Failure stems from unbelief and not losing salvation.

 

[studier]

Hebrews 3:8-10 says, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore, I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it. Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So, we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.

The COMMAND in 3:8 is to believers to not become rebellious. The previous context is about faithfulness and 3:6 says believers are of God's household IF they adhere to the end (and there's a chance they won't). The COMMAND in 3:12 is to beware in case there will be (future) in some of them an evil unbelieving heart by departing from the living God. The COMMAND in 3:13 is to encourage fellow believers daily so none are hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. Then in context comes the message in 3:14 about the potential of failure to adhere firmly until the end.

Once again, this demonstrative and descriptive nonsense destroys the commands and warnings in the Text. Failure is a potential and the context is re: Believers failing.

cc: @GWH re: descriptive

 

[mailmandan]

The COMMAND in 3:8 is to believers to not become rebellious. The previous context is about faithfulness and 3:6 says believers are of God's household IF they adhere to the end (and there's a chance they won't). The COMMAND in 3:12 is to beware in case there will be (future) in some of them an evil unbelieving heart by departing from the living God. The COMMAND in 3:13 is to encourage fellow believers daily so none are hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. Then in context comes the message in 3:14 about the potential of failure to adhere firmly until the end.

Once again, this demonstrative and descriptive nonsense destroys the commands and warnings in the Text. Failure is a potential and the context is re: Believers failing.

cc: @GWH re: descriptive

What you don't seem to understand is that all throughout the book of Hebrews, we have genuine believers and false believers mixed together. Hence the demonstrative and descriptive language.

In Hebrews 4:2-3, we read - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which they heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

*Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers. *Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

In Hebrews 10:39, we read - But WE are not OF THOSE who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

 

[TrustandObey]

Holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

Failure stems from unbelief and not losing salvation.

This is simply another term for apostasy does not exist.

There is no need for warnings about something that cannot be real.

Its like "repent or perish".

Why warn people who believe to repent since those who believe have by your reasoning already repented?

 

[studier]

What you don't seem to understand is that all throughout the book of Hebrews, we have genuine believers and false believers mixed together. Hence the demonstrative and descriptive language.

You're not dealing with the language of the verses under discussion.

 

[mailmandan]

You're not dealing with the language of the verses under discussion.

Actually, I have and I proved my point.

 

[studier]

Actually, I have and I proved my point.

You sure have...

 

[mailmandan]

You sure have...

I have dealt with language of the verses under discussion. I'm glad we agree.