Like free will, which is not in the Bible in relation to man choosing salvation, juxtaposed against everything said of the natural man, which gets ignored, contradicted, and denied, while what is said of the spiritual man is transposed onto the natural man, as if he were in possession of the qualities, characteristics, and abilities possessed only by the spiritual man. And then people come along and say they have no idea who the natural man is and who the spiritual man is while they argue these things as if free will exists, as if it is not Jesus Who raises people to new life and circumcised their hearts so they may love God, just as the Scriptures say. Instead, we have many saying it is the decision of the natural man, who can neither receive nor comprehend the spiritual things of God, deciding to believe what is foolishness to him while, he is a slave to sin, a lover of darkness, hostile in his mind toward God, captive to the will of the devil, incapable of obeying, and refusing to come into the light... etc etc. Well, it is a bit mind boggling to be sure. Not everyone has ears to hear, but people will still say everyone hears even though Jesus explicitly said not everyone does, and He said why, also. However, His sheep hear.
Understanding God’s election
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"Free will" in the Bible? ~ Freedom is something believers are called to (Galatians 5 verse 13). We need Jesus to “set us free” (Galatians 5 verse 1). If Jesus has not freed us from the bondage of sin, then we are still slaves to sin (Romans 6 verses 6-7). Freedom is found in the presence of the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3 verse 17). Only Jesus can give us true freedom (John 8 verse 36). Only through His lovingkindness can we truly make choices unfettered by a nature that is inherently hostile toward God.
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Agree.
It does say faith will be birthed by God from hearing the message.
13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”
17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.
Romans 10:13-17
It does say faith will be birthed by God from hearing the message.
13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”
17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.
Romans 10:13-17
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In "birthed faith false doctrine" there is no offer of salvation.
Either God makes you into a saved person or you will never be, and that is predetermined before you exist.
From beginning to end of scripture we see that God created us all WITH the moral ability to respond positively or negatively to His appeals to be reconciled.
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But that's the rub...you do believe men hear truth, apply their God given minds to its understanding, then choose to believe or not. Biblically, this is not the substance of faith. Faith isn't produced by men. It involves the Spirit of God employing the word of God. It is a supernatural transaction under the purview of God, not men.
John 12 verses 38b-40 “Lord, who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the Lord
been revealed?” For this reason they were unable to believe. For again, Isaiah says: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so that they cannot see with their eyes, and understand with their hearts, and turn, and I would heal them.”
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Isaiah 6 verses 9-10, Luke 8 verse 10, (Matthew 13 verses 14-15, Mark 4 verse 12, Romans 11 verse 8, John 12 verses 39-40, Acts 28 verses 26-27, Ezekiel 12 verse 2, Jeremiah 5 verse 21, Deuteronomy 29 verse 4, Psalm 115 verses 4-8, Psalm 135 verses 15-18) ~ The voice of the Lord said: “Go and tell this people, ‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’ Make the hearts of this people calloused; deafen their ears and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.” The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, ‘though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.’
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“Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.”
Romans 10:17 NIV
It comes as a gift from God when we believe the gospel. It’s just that they think this isn’t Gods plan for saving people
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.”
Mark 16:15-16, 20 KJV
They think that’s not gonna work for humans unless your chosen and special by God the ones who don’t believe it it’s because they aren’t capable and the ones who do only believe because God made them believe ……
Some aren’t special and enabled to hear Gods word only the nes god has chosen for glory . The other poor saps who don’t believe and are damned weren’t ever able to hear it because God didnt make them able ……gods Will eas they be damned so he made them incapable ect ect
To understand thier position You have to start with the idea “ man has no choice in doing good or evil , and also we’re incapable of hearing what God said through his chosen messengers. He sends to speak to man unless he decides your worthy and wants to save you then you’ll hear what he said but if he says nah this sinner isn’t worthy then you’ll never hear or understand anything of the gospel you’ll just think it’s jibberish
it’s really an impossible circle that never goes anywhere
Romans 10:17 NIV
It comes as a gift from God when we believe the gospel. It’s just that they think this isn’t Gods plan for saving people
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.”
Mark 16:15-16, 20 KJV
They think that’s not gonna work for humans unless your chosen and special by God the ones who don’t believe it it’s because they aren’t capable and the ones who do only believe because God made them believe ……
Some aren’t special and enabled to hear Gods word only the nes god has chosen for glory . The other poor saps who don’t believe and are damned weren’t ever able to hear it because God didnt make them able ……gods Will eas they be damned so he made them incapable ect ect
To understand thier position You have to start with the idea “ man has no choice in doing good or evil , and also we’re incapable of hearing what God said through his chosen messengers. He sends to speak to man unless he decides your worthy and wants to save you then you’ll hear what he said but if he says nah this sinner isn’t worthy then you’ll never hear or understand anything of the gospel you’ll just think it’s jibberish
it’s really an impossible circle that never goes anywhere
Yes and like you quoted Paul’s specifically talking about the men god sent out to preach the gospel …..it’s a prophecy from Isaiah actually being fulfilled. I do t think they underrrsnd Gods work is the gospel and his message is spread by his messengers who wrote the New Testament
“How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion. The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.”
Isaiah 52:7-8, 10
“How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion. The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.”
Isaiah 52:7-8, 10
Yes I agree 100 percent . I don’t really like blotting out all the doctrine in order to argue in circles too often old of for that
“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
Ecclesiastes 12:13-14
“For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; and hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
John 5:26-29 KJV
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;
2 Corinthians 5:10-11 KJV
Do you see how this would be total nonsense in that theory ?
“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
Romans 2:6-11 NIV
Like you said
“”From beginning to end of scripture we see that God created us all WITH the moral ability to respond positively or negatively to His appeals to be reconciled”
“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
Ecclesiastes 12:13-14
“For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; and hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
John 5:26-29 KJV
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;
2 Corinthians 5:10-11 KJV
Do you see how this would be total nonsense in that theory ?
“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
Romans 2:6-11 NIV
Like you said
“”From beginning to end of scripture we see that God created us all WITH the moral ability to respond positively or negatively to His appeals to be reconciled”
I was taught the P, but then I read the Bible and in the NT I saw the sour 16
Scriptures that teach the possibility of apostasy:
MT 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”
RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”
1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”
GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”
CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”
2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”
2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”
HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”
HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”
HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”
JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”
2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”
2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”
1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”
JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”
RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”
Then I saw how to harmonize the sour 16 with passages that seem to support OSAS as follows:
1. John 10:27-29 – being “unsnatchable” does not disallow a person from choosing to jump out of the “Father’s hand”. Also, in JN 6:37 “never drive away” does not mean a person cannot go away, and in JN 6:39 “I shall lose none” may refer to those who persevere or do not stray, who stand firm, who endure, who hold firmly, etc.
2. Romans 8:38-39 – “anything else” may refer to powers other than one’s own will.
3. Romans 14:4&10, Paul says not to judge a servant of Jesus, who is able to make them stand before God’s judgment. The verb “make” may mean “provide a way”.
4. 1Cor. 1:8, 10:12 & 15:58, Paul says that Jesus will keep the Corinthian believers firm to the end, warns them that if they think they are standing firm to be careful that they don’t fall and therefore, stand firm, letting nothing move them from the work of the Lord. These verses indicate that standing firm involves a believer cooperating with the way Jesus provides.
5. 2Cor. 1:20-24, Paul says that God makes us stand firm in Christ and anointed our hearts with the HS as a seal and deposit; it is by faith that we stand firm. This indicates that the way God provides for standing firm is for believers to persevere in cooperating with the HS.
6. Ephesians 1:11-14 – what is “predestined” is God’s plan to choose or elect anyone who desires to be “in him” or to satisfy GRFS. Thus, being “marked in him with a seal” does not abrogate moral free will (cf. 2PT 1:10f).
7. 1 John 2:19 – when synthesized with verse 24 must mean that those who repudiate their Faith do not eternally “belong”.
8. Psalm 135:6 – in light of “volitional verses” (such as DT 30:19 & MT 23:37) means that God “pleases” to permit limited free will.
9. Proverbs 21:1 – in order not to make God responsible for the sins cited in the rest of the chapter must mean that the “king’s heart” or will is choosing to cooperate with the Lord’s “hand” or directions.
Scriptures that teach the possibility of apostasy:
MT 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”
RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”
1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”
GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”
CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”
2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”
2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”
HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”
HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”
HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”
JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”
2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”
2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”
1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”
JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”
RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”
Then I saw how to harmonize the sour 16 with passages that seem to support OSAS as follows:
1. John 10:27-29 – being “unsnatchable” does not disallow a person from choosing to jump out of the “Father’s hand”. Also, in JN 6:37 “never drive away” does not mean a person cannot go away, and in JN 6:39 “I shall lose none” may refer to those who persevere or do not stray, who stand firm, who endure, who hold firmly, etc.
2. Romans 8:38-39 – “anything else” may refer to powers other than one’s own will.
3. Romans 14:4&10, Paul says not to judge a servant of Jesus, who is able to make them stand before God’s judgment. The verb “make” may mean “provide a way”.
4. 1Cor. 1:8, 10:12 & 15:58, Paul says that Jesus will keep the Corinthian believers firm to the end, warns them that if they think they are standing firm to be careful that they don’t fall and therefore, stand firm, letting nothing move them from the work of the Lord. These verses indicate that standing firm involves a believer cooperating with the way Jesus provides.
5. 2Cor. 1:20-24, Paul says that God makes us stand firm in Christ and anointed our hearts with the HS as a seal and deposit; it is by faith that we stand firm. This indicates that the way God provides for standing firm is for believers to persevere in cooperating with the HS.
6. Ephesians 1:11-14 – what is “predestined” is God’s plan to choose or elect anyone who desires to be “in him” or to satisfy GRFS. Thus, being “marked in him with a seal” does not abrogate moral free will (cf. 2PT 1:10f).
7. 1 John 2:19 – when synthesized with verse 24 must mean that those who repudiate their Faith do not eternally “belong”.
8. Psalm 135:6 – in light of “volitional verses” (such as DT 30:19 & MT 23:37) means that God “pleases” to permit limited free will.
9. Proverbs 21:1 – in order not to make God responsible for the sins cited in the rest of the chapter must mean that the “king’s heart” or will is choosing to cooperate with the Lord’s “hand” or directions.
You funny. Often it seems you have not even read the Bible, so it must be wondered what you know of its contents beginning to end, because Jesus speaks of those with eyes to see and ears to hear, and it is glaringly apparent in Scripture, as well as by looking at the world around us, that not everybody has eyes to see or ears to hear... but we do know Who it is that makes it possible for people to see and to hear, and this information is given to us through a proper reading of Scripture, ah, if you have eyes to see, that is. It is very plainly said that the natural man can neither receive nor comprehend the spiritual things of God. It is very odd that you put yourself forward as one who knows what is in the Bible when you deny and contradict so much of it. It's as if your eyes do not even see what is plainly written.
The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are
foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are
foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
John 12 verses 38b-40 “Lord, who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the Lord
been revealed?” For this reason they were unable to believe. For again, Isaiah says: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so that they cannot see with their eyes, and understand with their hearts, and turn, and I would heal them.”