If sin is not imputed without the law, how can some claim that babies and children die because Adam's sin is imputed to them?

[sawdust]

Everybody dies for THEIR OWN SIN (Deut 24:16). Everything else is nothing but "Theology" which is like noses. Everybody's got one.

We have exactly the SAME NATURE that Adam, Jesus, and everybody else had / has. - a HUMAN nature that never changed.

Yes and that nature comes from our soul but the sin nature resides in our body. Adam was created and Christ was born without that law in their flesh, what we call the sin nature.

Romans 7:23
But I see a different law in my members waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that is in my members.

We are all born wrong (an inherited corruption in our flesh) and as such a righteous God cannot enter a relationship with us without compromising His integrity (His word), hence we are also born spiritually dead (body and soul only) which is why we must be born from above.

 

[PaulThomson]

The fear of death is the souls response to the sin nature (the other law in our bodies), it is not the sin nature itself.

YOu may believe so. I would say that the fear of death is the soul's response to the possibility of one's life ending.

 

[GWH]

Yes and that nature comes from our soul but the sin nature resides in our body. Adam was created and Christ was born without that law in their flesh, what we call the sin nature.

Romans 7:23
But I see a different law in my members waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that is in my members.

We are all born wrong (an inherited corruption in our flesh) and as such a righteous God cannot enter a relationship with us without compromising His integrity (His word), hence we are also born spiritually dead (body and soul only) which is why we must be born from above.

Human nature was created good but not perfect, and moral perfection should be every Christian’s goal (Philippians 3:12-15). However, all humans sin (except Jesus who had a human nature that was perfected during his earthly life per Hebrews 5:8-9),
and every sinner has the opportunity to repent/have saving faith. (Romans 1:20, 2:7, 3:21-22, 4:16-17, 5:8-19)

 

[Webers.Home]

.
● Gen 2:15-17 . . And the Lord God commanded the man, saying: Of every
tree of the garden you are free to eat; but as for the tree of knowledge of
good and bad, you must not eat of it; for in the day you eat of it, you shall
die.

The first thing to point out is that in order for his maker's warning to
resonate in the man's thinking; it had to be related to death as he
understood death in his own day rather than death as modern Sunday
school classes construe it in their day. In other words: the man's concept of
death was primitive, i.e. normal and natural rather than allegorical, spiritual,
and/or philosophical.

Mankind was created in the image and likeness of God, so I think it safe to
assume he came into existence with perpetual youth. As far as can be
known from scripture, no other form of life was created in the image and
likeness of God, so I think it safe to assume the animal kingdom and the
world of vegetation was all meant to be expendable.

That being the case, then I think it's safe to assume that death was common
all around the man by means of vegetation, birds, bugs, and beasts so that
it wasn't a strange new word in his vocabulary; i.e. God didn't have to take a
moment and define death for the man seeing as how it was doubtless a
common occurrence in his everyday life.

So I think we can be reasonably confident that the man was up to speed on
at least the natural aspects of death and fully understood that if he went
ahead and tasted the forbidden fruit that his body would lose its perpetual
youth and end up drying in the sun like road kill; so to speak.
_

 

[PaulThomson]

We are all born wrong (an inherited corruption in our flesh) and as such a righteous God cannot enter a relationship with us without compromising His integrity (His word),

This seems quite at odds with the evidence of scripture. When Adam and Eve sinned, God's integrity was not compromised by seeking out Adam and Eve and interacting with them. When Cain slew Abel, God's integrity was not compromised by Him seeking out cain to talk through the issue. When Jesus walked among men, His integrity was not compromised by his fellowshipping with sinners, touching lepers and being touched by prostitutes and hypocrites.

I find this view of God as defilable by contact with sinful beings underrates the power of God's holiness, as if His touching anything unclean would defile Him.

 

[posthuman]

Because the creation has been handed over to futility.

Romans 8:20
for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope;

amen

the dust was cursed for our sake, so that He might have mercy on all

 

[sawdust]

YOu may believe so. I would say that the fear of death is the soul's response to the possibility of one's life ending.

You misunderstood. Being able to be afraid of death is an act of thinking. The body nor the sin nature doesn't think.

 

[sawdust]

Human nature was created good but not perfect, and moral perfection should be every Christian’s goal (Philippians 3:12-15). However, all humans sin (except Jesus who had a human nature that was perfected during his earthly life per Hebrews 5:8-9),
and every sinner has the opportunity to repent/have saving faith. (Romans 1:20, 2:7, 3:21-22, 4:16-17, 5:8-19)

What has that got to do with what I said?

The sin nature is another law, a law God did not create when He formed Adam's body. It is also called the "law of sin". Adam's body was not created with that law nor was Christ's body prepared with that law.

It has nothing to do with being transformed. we are to reckon ourselves dead to that law.

 

[sawdust]

This seems quite at odds with the evidence of scripture. When Adam and Eve sinned, God's integrity was not compromised by seeking out Adam and Eve and interacting with them. When Cain slew Abel, God's integrity was not compromised by Him seeking out cain to talk through the issue. When Jesus walked among men, His integrity was not compromised by his fellowshipping with sinners, touching lepers and being touched by prostitutes and hypocrites.

I find this view of God as defilable by contact with sinful beings underrates the power of God's holiness, as if His touching anything unclean would defile Him.

Of course Christ could touch lepers and God could walk back into the Garden because Christ is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. The plan for redemption preceded the Fall.

But do you think God could simply ignore sin when His word is "sin and you will die"? We all should have been eternally forsaken. If eternal life is to know God (relational knowledge Jn.17:3), then death is to be without a relationship with God.

God cannot say one thing and then do another without some form of plan that met His righteous demand for justice. The righteousness of the slain lamb met the justice of God (God keeping His word) so that righteousness could be credited to those who believed in Him even before He was physically slain in this world.

 

[TMS]

nor was Christ's body prepared with that law.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Likeness of sinful flesh.

Sin is not acceptable in any way. We are told to overcome and God gives us the power to be like Jesus.

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

It is possible to overcome like Jesus.
By the power of God within we can be like Christ. By faith and the Spirit we can overcome. All glory to God.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Likeness of sinful flesh.

Sin is not acceptable in any way. We are told to overcome and God gives us the power to be like Jesus.

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

It is possible to overcome like Jesus.
By the power of God within we can be like Christ. By faith and the Spirit we can overcome. All glory to God.

“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[PaulThomson]

You misunderstood. Being able to be afraid of death is an act of thinking. The body nor the sin nature doesn't think.

What's your evidence that fear of death is an act of thinking. Is a gazelle startled by a movement in the bushes nearby and then races off in the opposite direction thinking? or simply instinctively reacting?

"Sin nature" occurs 0 times in 0 verses in the KJV.

Phusis, translated as nature in the KJV, derives from phuO, to spring up. So, phusis is a springing up. What a person does in response to stimuli is their phusis. A person can change their responses to the same stimuli, so that their natural response to the same stimuli is different from what was instinctive/innate previously. The body does think. The brain and nervous system are parts of the body and are both involved in assessing risks and benefits either at an automatic/habitual level or at a more deliberative reasoning level. The soul is also involved in thinking, and so is the spirit. Which of the three is given preeminence, determines what actions will be taken in response to stimuli.

One can instinctively intuit that there is a risk of death and respond instantaneously, or one can rationally evaluate there is a risk of death and respond deliberately.

 

[Mem]

Because the creation has been handed over to futility.

Romans 8:20
for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope;

I'm currently meditating on the connection of futility to hope.... and for a minute, I think I almost had it... something to do with managing to see hope in futility...something like, for all man's efforts, whether intentionally or otherwise, is futile.
Noticing that, generally, more focus is given to the evil in the world and goodness is shrugged off like it's fake or something, it all just seems... well, it's offering an impression of hopelessness, too obviously to me.
I appreciate linked verse. It occurred to me that I need to look closer to which object the descriptive clause "in hope" actually belongs, is it describing the how in 'who' that subjected or the what in 'it' subjected.

 

[PaulThomson]

But do you think God could simply ignore sin when His word is "sin and you will die"? We all should have been eternally forsaken. If eternal life is to know God (relational knowledge Jn.17:3), then death is to be without a relationship with God.

You appear to be conflating Genesis where physical death was the result of Adam transgressing, Ezekiel 18:4 where the soul that is sinning is dying (is becoming more deadened), and Paul's warning that the soul that keeps on sinning shall die (the second death).

You are assuming that God is the one imposing the separation, whereas scripture says that our sins separate between us and our God. We pull away from Him. We choose not to keep Him in our thoughts. However, He remains closer than our hands and feet and in him we live and move and have our being. Our separation from God is a perspective we choose to take toward God. It is not a perspective God takes toward us.

 

[sawdust]

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Likeness of sinful flesh.

Sin is not acceptable in any way. We are told to overcome and God gives us the power to be like Jesus.

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

It is possible to overcome like Jesus.
By the power of God within we can be like Christ. By faith and the Spirit we can overcome. All glory to God.

Nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

 

[sawdust]

What's your evidence that fear of death is an act of thinking. Is a gazelle startled by a movement in the bushes nearby and then races off in the opposite direction thinking? or simply instinctively reacting?

"Sin nature" occurs 0 times in 0 verses in the KJV.

Phusis, translated as nature in the KJV, derives from phuO, to spring up. So, phusis is a springing up. What a person does in response to stimuli is their phusis. A person can change their responses to the same stimuli, so that their natural response to the same stimuli is different from what was instinctive/innate previously. The body does think. The brain and nervous system are parts of the body and are both involved in assessing risks and benefits either at an automatic/habitual level or at a more deliberative reasoning level. The soul is also involved in thinking, and so is the spirit. Which of the three is given preeminence, determines what actions will be taken in response to stimuli.

One can instinctively intuit that there is a risk of death and respond instantaneously, or one can rationally evaluate there is a risk of death and respond deliberately.

We are talking about humans and when you know the Lord is your Shepherd? What do you have to fear. To continue in fear is to follow after the flesh, not the Spirit.

 

[sawdust]

I'm currently meditating on the connection of futility to hope.... and for a minute, I think I almost had it... something to do with managing to see hope in futility...something like, for all man's efforts, whether intentionally or otherwise, is futile.
Noticing that, generally, more focus is given to the evil in the world and goodness is shrugged off like it's fake or something, it all just seems... well, it's offering an impression of hopelessness, too obviously to me.
I appreciate linked verse. It occurred to me that I need to look closer to which object the descriptive clause "in hope" actually belongs, is it describing the how in 'who' that subjected or the what in 'it' subjected.

I believe the purpose of the futility is to teach us to trust God and not ourselves in whom is real hope, a hope that is more than wishful thinking but is a future in which we can have absolute confidence.

2 Corinthians 1:9
Indeed we felt as if the sentence of death had been passed against us, so that we would not trust in ourselves but in God who raises the dead.

 

[sawdust]

You appear to be conflating Genesis where physical death was the result of Adam transgressing, Ezekiel 18:4 where the soul that is sinning is dying (is becoming more deadened), and Paul's warning that the soul that keeps on sinning shall die (the second death).

You are assuming that God is the one imposing the separation, whereas scripture says that our sins separate between us and our God. We pull away from Him. We choose not to keep Him in our thoughts. However, He remains closer than our hands and feet and in him we live and move and have our being. Our separation from God is a perspective we choose to take toward God. It is not a perspective God takes toward us.

God must keep His word and if one sins then separation must be the result because if not, then God's word has no meaning.

You seem to be saying God can neglect His own word and pay no attention to it for Himself. Yes, it is sin that causes the separation but that is on the basis of God's word, not our perspective.

 

[PaulThomson]

God must keep His word and if one sins then separation must be the result because if not, then God's word has no meaning.

You seem to be saying God can neglect His own word and pay no attention to it for Himself. Yes, it is sin that causes the separation but that is on the basis of God's word, not our perspective.

If we live and move and have our being in God, and God is omnipresent, there is no way God can separate from us. However, our perception can be that we are separated from God, and we can blame God for that separation by claiming that He has judged us and separated from us.

 

[Mem]

I believe the purpose of the futility is to teach us to trust God and not ourselves in whom is real hope, a hope that is more than wishful thinking but is a future in which we can have absolute confidence.

2 Corinthians 1:9
Indeed we felt as if the sentence of death had been passed against us, so that we would not trust in ourselves but in God who raises the dead.

I think this is where I encounter awe, when I consider such the extent of hopeless, that we can clearly see, and set it against such greatness as the hope in God.