Hermeneutics: Interpreting Scripture
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Why did you decide to do this work here rather than post it on the UGE thread?
Do you have any comments about how I introduced this topic and have developed it so far?
I was intending to complete my initial line of inquiry with another post discussing the P in TULIP,
but I would like to know where you think it would be good to go by way of a systematic or logical direction after that--
perhaps based on further material from the UGE thread?
Now we might return to the analysis of the concluding part of the OP in the UGE thread:
6a. “Romans chapter 9 is the most famous proponent of God’s election …
“… that the purpose of election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls.
… So then, it is not of him who wills (to be elected, chosen, and called),
nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.” (Romans 9:11-16)”
Yes, and reading Romans from the beginning reveals that God calls/offers grace or mercy to all.
6b. “God gives grace to whomever He chooses, but no one deserves grace (unmerited favor)!
God gives justice to whomever He chooses, and everyone deserves justice!”
Yes, and everyone is treated justly, because God does not show favoritism.
6c. “God wishes that all could be saved, but it is not possible because He insists on His justice.
“You love justice and hate evil.” (Hebrews 1”9) God is not willing that any (of us) should perish, but that all (of us) should repent … the “us” referring to His elect, who are promised salvation.”
Yes, God’s intent is for all to be saved, which is possible because He offers grace to all and enables all to believe GW/the Gospel—or not (because of God's permissive will).
6d. “Christians are called to confess and repent of their on-going sins,
and the blood of Jesus will cleanse them of all their unrighteousness (1 John 1:7-9).”
Yes, true. Saints do not achieve perfection during this earthly experience.
6e. “The reason why Father God chooses some, but not others
Father God chooses to elect some people for His great pleasure.
He chooses to elect some to demonstrate to the whole world
His great love, mercy, grace, etc. (Romans 9:23).
He chooses to elect some to be companions for His Son throughout eternity (Scriptural?).
Those not chosen are given justice, which sadly is what they deserve.”
No, this statement does not affirm Scripture teaching that all may be saved,
but some are stubborn or have callous hearts that ignore God’s grace/GW, which grieves God.
6f. “Those whom Father God gives to Jesus are guaranteed salvation
This is all about the unconditional security of the born-again believer.
Multitudes of NT verses are God’s promises of salvation given to His elect.
Surely, those of us who are born again should be continually praising God and
thanking Him for choosing us … and for the Holy Spirit sanctifying us unto holiness
… and for Jesus interceding for us before Father God in heaven.”
No, this statement ignores Scripture teaching that faith is the condition for security from beginning to end, which brings us to consider the end of TULIP, the P for perseverance, which is the easiest to refute because there are so many Scriptures supporting the possibility of apostasy.
The classic passage that teaches the possibility of apostasy is Hebrews 6:4-6: “It is impossible for those who have… shared in the Holy Spirit… if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again.” Another verse in this vein is Galatians 5:4: “You who are trying to be justified by law… have fallen away from grace.” (Others include Rom. 11:22, 1Cor. 15:2, Col. 1:22-23, 2Thes. 1:4-5, 2Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6&14, 10:35-36, Jam. 1:12, 2Pet. 1:10-11, 2:20, 1John 2:24-25 and Rev. 2:10.
The P in TULIP denies the Permissive will of God that allows MFW and thus the Possibility of apostasy.
6a. “Romans chapter 9 is the most famous proponent of God’s election …
“… that the purpose of election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls.
… So then, it is not of him who wills (to be elected, chosen, and called),
nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.” (Romans 9:11-16)”
Yes, and reading Romans from the beginning reveals that God calls/offers grace or mercy to all.
6b. “God gives grace to whomever He chooses, but no one deserves grace (unmerited favor)!
God gives justice to whomever He chooses, and everyone deserves justice!”
Yes, and everyone is treated justly, because God does not show favoritism.
6c. “God wishes that all could be saved, but it is not possible because He insists on His justice.
“You love justice and hate evil.” (Hebrews 1”9) God is not willing that any (of us) should perish, but that all (of us) should repent … the “us” referring to His elect, who are promised salvation.”
Yes, God’s intent is for all to be saved, which is possible because He offers grace to all and enables all to believe GW/the Gospel—or not (because of God's permissive will).
6d. “Christians are called to confess and repent of their on-going sins,
and the blood of Jesus will cleanse them of all their unrighteousness (1 John 1:7-9).”
Yes, true. Saints do not achieve perfection during this earthly experience.
6e. “The reason why Father God chooses some, but not others
Father God chooses to elect some people for His great pleasure.
He chooses to elect some to demonstrate to the whole world
His great love, mercy, grace, etc. (Romans 9:23).
He chooses to elect some to be companions for His Son throughout eternity (Scriptural?).
Those not chosen are given justice, which sadly is what they deserve.”
No, this statement does not affirm Scripture teaching that all may be saved,
but some are stubborn or have callous hearts that ignore God’s grace/GW, which grieves God.
6f. “Those whom Father God gives to Jesus are guaranteed salvation
This is all about the unconditional security of the born-again believer.
Multitudes of NT verses are God’s promises of salvation given to His elect.
Surely, those of us who are born again should be continually praising God and
thanking Him for choosing us … and for the Holy Spirit sanctifying us unto holiness
… and for Jesus interceding for us before Father God in heaven.”
No, this statement ignores Scripture teaching that faith is the condition for security from beginning to end, which brings us to consider the end of TULIP, the P for perseverance, which is the easiest to refute because there are so many Scriptures supporting the possibility of apostasy.
The classic passage that teaches the possibility of apostasy is Hebrews 6:4-6: “It is impossible for those who have… shared in the Holy Spirit… if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again.” Another verse in this vein is Galatians 5:4: “You who are trying to be justified by law… have fallen away from grace.” (Others include Rom. 11:22, 1Cor. 15:2, Col. 1:22-23, 2Thes. 1:4-5, 2Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6&14, 10:35-36, Jam. 1:12, 2Pet. 1:10-11, 2:20, 1John 2:24-25 and Rev. 2:10.
The P in TULIP denies the Permissive will of God that allows MFW and thus the Possibility of apostasy.
Seeing no suggestions, let us continue this study by examining post #3 on the UGE thread,
which is simply a description of sinful souls as being wicked, mockers, rebellious, hating, etc.,
which is not disputed, so let us move on to consider relevant parts in other posts.
Post #8 says “God has called us all to choose to believe God in risen Son or not. Any scriptures on that you might have” to which no reply was found,
so moving on again we come to #15, which says, “I believe God is righteous, fair and complete… to say God does not or has not called everyone to choose to believe God or not, makes God unfair and unrighteous”, which is a vote for the MFWist view.
The next post says “God is sovereign, so His will always comes to pass.”, which is a vote for the TULIP position and probably unintentionally implies that God is responsible for causing evil.
In post #18 the OP asks, “how about commenting on the election Scriptures?”, apparently meaning the ones in the OP, which we have done, but unfortunately the OP did not comment on Scriptures supporting the MFW view, so no harmonizing is done, but post #21 replies with Scriptures and comments supporting MFW:
Post #35 cites Scriptures purported to support TULIP:
[Phl 1:29 KJV] 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
[Jhn 10:26-27 KJV] 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV] 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
[1Pe 1:20-21 KJV] 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
[2Th 2:13 KJV] 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Would anyone want to explore whether these verses do indeed support TULIP,
and if any do so, then how those may be harmonized with Scriptures supporting MFW?
which is simply a description of sinful souls as being wicked, mockers, rebellious, hating, etc.,
which is not disputed, so let us move on to consider relevant parts in other posts.
Post #8 says “God has called us all to choose to believe God in risen Son or not. Any scriptures on that you might have” to which no reply was found,
so moving on again we come to #15, which says, “I believe God is righteous, fair and complete… to say God does not or has not called everyone to choose to believe God or not, makes God unfair and unrighteous”, which is a vote for the MFWist view.
The next post says “God is sovereign, so His will always comes to pass.”, which is a vote for the TULIP position and probably unintentionally implies that God is responsible for causing evil.
In post #18 the OP asks, “how about commenting on the election Scriptures?”, apparently meaning the ones in the OP, which we have done, but unfortunately the OP did not comment on Scriptures supporting the MFW view, so no harmonizing is done, but post #21 replies with Scriptures and comments supporting MFW:
- Ephesians 1:3–6, God's blessings are linked to the Son in several ways, including being chosen "in him" and adopted "through Jesus Christ".
- John 3:36, God says, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life".
- 1 John 5:10, God says, "Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself".
- Ephesians 1:13, 2:8-9, God saved people individually when they believed the gospel message.
Post #35 cites Scriptures purported to support TULIP:
[Phl 1:29 KJV] 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
[Jhn 10:26-27 KJV] 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV] 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
[1Pe 1:20-21 KJV] 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
[2Th 2:13 KJV] 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Would anyone want to explore whether these verses do indeed support TULIP,
and if any do so, then how those may be harmonized with Scriptures supporting MFW?
Seeing no takers, I will undertake the analysis of #35.
The first step in applying a systematic hermeneutic is to eliminate Scripture that is irrelevant, and the second step will be to harmonize any that support TULIP with those supporting MFW.
Phl 1:29 can be eliminated, because it is not disputed that God initiates grace by offering souls the opportunity to be saved, but only whether such provision is resistible, and this verse does not say that it is or isn’t. Jhn 6:29 can be eliminated for essentially the same reason, because it is not disputed that God prepares all good works, but only whether souls are free to disobey or not (cf. Eph. 2:8-10).
Similarly, Gal 5:22 does not say folks are forced to bear the fruit (work) of the Spirit including faith,
and Gal 2:16 does not say folks are forced to have faith in Jesus Christ.
Now let us see how the remaining verses that seem to support TULIP jibe with verses supporting MFW,
which post #35 should have done were it objective and systematic.
In Act 13:48 the problematic part is whether being “ordained to eternal life believed” means being forced to believe or that believing satisfies the condition for being ordained. John 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life”, indicates that the correct interpretation and harmonization is the latter.
Jhn 10:26-27 should be read in connection with the Parable of the Sheep and Goats, which indicates that the separation or distinction is due to souls choosing whether to obey God’s will or not. Those who chose to obey His voice and follow Jesus satisfy GRFS, and those who chose to ignore GW and not believe in Jesus are not his sheep. This understanding is how the passages may be harmonized.
At first glance 1Pe 1:4-5 might sound like souls are kept or forced to be saved “by the power of God”, but closer inspection reveals that “through faith” indicates the condition of cooperation with God, which understanding harmonizes with Scripture beginning with Rom. 3:22.
1Pe 1:20-21 should be read in connection with 2Pet. 3:9, so that whatever is meant by “by him”, it does not mean being forced to repent.
Finally, 2Th 2:13 seems to refer to sanctification of the Spirit as the condition for having belief of the truth, but other statements of Paul indicate that faith is the condition for being spiritually circumcised, as in Rom. 4:3 & 5:1-5.
Hopefully, everyone is learning how to harmonize Scripture instead of ignoring the part that does not support the interpretation one has been taught to believe. In my case, my Baptist upbringing taught OSAS, but learning Scripture taught me that the P (in TULIP) also depended on the condition of cooperating faith, so that GRFS is faith from first to last (Rom. 1:17).
A passage teaching this truth is Colossians 2:6-7: “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord [kerygma], continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught [didache].” There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 2Cor. 5:7, Rom. 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.
The first step in applying a systematic hermeneutic is to eliminate Scripture that is irrelevant, and the second step will be to harmonize any that support TULIP with those supporting MFW.
Phl 1:29 can be eliminated, because it is not disputed that God initiates grace by offering souls the opportunity to be saved, but only whether such provision is resistible, and this verse does not say that it is or isn’t. Jhn 6:29 can be eliminated for essentially the same reason, because it is not disputed that God prepares all good works, but only whether souls are free to disobey or not (cf. Eph. 2:8-10).
Similarly, Gal 5:22 does not say folks are forced to bear the fruit (work) of the Spirit including faith,
and Gal 2:16 does not say folks are forced to have faith in Jesus Christ.
Now let us see how the remaining verses that seem to support TULIP jibe with verses supporting MFW,
which post #35 should have done were it objective and systematic.
In Act 13:48 the problematic part is whether being “ordained to eternal life believed” means being forced to believe or that believing satisfies the condition for being ordained. John 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life”, indicates that the correct interpretation and harmonization is the latter.
Jhn 10:26-27 should be read in connection with the Parable of the Sheep and Goats, which indicates that the separation or distinction is due to souls choosing whether to obey God’s will or not. Those who chose to obey His voice and follow Jesus satisfy GRFS, and those who chose to ignore GW and not believe in Jesus are not his sheep. This understanding is how the passages may be harmonized.
At first glance 1Pe 1:4-5 might sound like souls are kept or forced to be saved “by the power of God”, but closer inspection reveals that “through faith” indicates the condition of cooperation with God, which understanding harmonizes with Scripture beginning with Rom. 3:22.
1Pe 1:20-21 should be read in connection with 2Pet. 3:9, so that whatever is meant by “by him”, it does not mean being forced to repent.
Finally, 2Th 2:13 seems to refer to sanctification of the Spirit as the condition for having belief of the truth, but other statements of Paul indicate that faith is the condition for being spiritually circumcised, as in Rom. 4:3 & 5:1-5.
Hopefully, everyone is learning how to harmonize Scripture instead of ignoring the part that does not support the interpretation one has been taught to believe. In my case, my Baptist upbringing taught OSAS, but learning Scripture taught me that the P (in TULIP) also depended on the condition of cooperating faith, so that GRFS is faith from first to last (Rom. 1:17).
A passage teaching this truth is Colossians 2:6-7: “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord [kerygma], continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught [didache].” There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 2Cor. 5:7, Rom. 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.