Understanding God’s election

[studier]

The unbeliever has only a carnal mind.

As @HeIsHere is explaining from Scripture Rom8 is not saying what you're saying.

Another thing is these translations, which one who checks various ones can see that there are some issues in translation:

NKJ Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

NET Romans 8:7 because the outlook of the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to the law of God, nor is it able to do so.

ESV Romans 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

Literally the latter 2 are closer and it says, "the mindset (the faculty of fixing one's mind on something) [of] the flesh.

This is why Paul is commanding Christians to not set their mind - their thinking on things of flesh (and the world). And, again, Paul has just come out of Rom7 explaining the inner battle of a man who wants to do the will of God but sees sin at work inside him. So, it's not a discussion of no unbeliever being able to believe in God, but of the battle going on inside a man that Christians are still going to have to deal with but under Grace in Spirit in which they can win the battle.

 

[studier]

@HeIsHere - thanks for the tag team. I'm shutting off the screen of division for most of the day. I hear God calling us from a good restaurant and a day of sunshine and...........

 

[HeIsHere]

@HeIsHere - thanks for the tag team. I'm shutting off the screen of division for most of the day. I hear God calling us from a good restaurant and a day of sunshine and...........

Awesome, enjoy
Yes I am taking a break too!

 

[Cameron143]

According to you this my problem, and I understand why you think this. And I think you are misreading His Word and the 1Cor2 verse you are referencing, at least in part. Thus, I think it's you who has the problem.

In Paul's mind and throughout his writings, especially Romans, is a kind of duality in men - there are men of faith who believe God and unrighteous men who in early context are the not men of faith who reject God. There is also his perspective that even though there are men like himself who believed YHWH - or had faith in YHWH (as Hebrews 11 tells us) - and who lived blamelessly, righteously under law, under sin, from God's ultimate perspective of perfect righteousness and holiness, all men, both Jew & Greek, men of faith and unrighteousness men, need Christ and His Righteousness from God. This is what Paul is building in Rom1 that sets the course for the rest of the document.

When you read Rom8, which is instruction to believers - men of faith in Jesus is YHWH's Christ - in living the spiritual life of a man of faith - what he says about the fleshly mindset does not negate the fact that there have been Jews for centuries living pursuant to God's Law with its sacrificial system for dealing with sin(s) and there are Gentiles who showed the work of the law in their hearts with functioning consciences. Paul has also just come out of Rom7 explaining how the Law had been instructing re: sin and making him able to perceive the struggle going on inside him as a man who desired to live as God willed. Paul will bring in the concept of the Remnant from the Hebrew Scriptures to go along with this and the Remnant was of OC men who did not bow in obeisance (same word Jesus used emphatically in John4 re: who God is seeking) to idols but lived albeit imperfectly in belief in God.

The problem IMO with this view of depravity that you share with TULIPism is that it works very hard to negate the truth that there have been men of faith from Abel on. These are men and women of Gentile and Hebrew heritage throughout history and the message of belief in God has been progressive and has been believed since the Garden by people before Jesus was sent.

So, I do not find it difficult to see in Scripture how some of the believing Remnant easily transitioned from belief in YHWH to being convinced by God and His people that Jesus was the God promised Messiah whom they were anticipating for centuries. Nor do I see it as impossible, as others do, to transition from belief in God to belief in His Son especially with His Spirit functioning in the world, His Word being in most of the world and having been so for millennia, consciences working to give a sense of good & bad & judgment, and other such factors, including living a life over time in a world that one can realize is an absolute mess while having in our hearts a sense of eternity - something better and greater than this catastrophe we're living out now - including death that just does not make sense if one believes in the Creator of Rom1 and the powers He has.

You can talk your way around what I have shared, but the math is simple:

...without faith, it is impossible to please God
...those operating from a carnal mind cannot please God
...unbelievers always operate from a carnal mind

 

[Cameron143]

LOL
Is this where I say ...
"But your position is people cannot beleive unless God acts first."

And then you say...
"You do not understand Reformed theology."

Suffice it to say this doctrine requires that unbelievers are in Christ, so that they can believe.
Not in scripture

Again your conclusions are wrong. And the fact that I had to explain what I was not doing twice again evidences your lack of understanding.
As far as the moment that someone comes to faith and is placed into Christ, I believe they occur simultaneously in practice. Fundamentally, they were in Christ before the foundation of the world. So again, you don't understand reformed theology. Just admit it and move on.

 

[lrs68]

So you believe carnally minded people can obey and please God?

How carnally minded are they to be able to see how much better it was being Hebrew and having the Hebrew God as their own God?

Seems pretty rational to me.

Rahab said I have heard the RUMORS and STORIES about the Great Victories your God has done. He surely is going to defeat Jericho. If I help you then save me and take me with you. Seems pretty rational to me.

 

[Magenta]

Again your conclusions are wrong. And the fact that I had to explain what I was not doing twice again evidences your lack of understanding.
As far as the moment that someone comes to faith and is placed into Christ, I believe they occur simultaneously in practice. Fundamentally, they were in Christ before the foundation of the world. So again, you don't understand reformed theology. Just admit it and move on.

It doesn't even have to do with not understanding reformed theology because really what it boils down to is they ignore reject and outright deny the Scriptural verses that speak to man's natural state ... that his heart is incurably wicked, that he cannot change himself... that he is dead in tresspassesy and sin... A slave to sin, a lover of darkness, suppressing the truth in unrighteousness, inherently hostile in his mind toward God, hearing the gospel as foolishness... The bad tree that cannot bring forth good fruit. Jesus said it was impossible with man but they claim with man it is possible. Scripture attests that is not by the will or effort or desire of man but by the will and desire of God. Just more for them to contradict and deny. There is so much they reject, deny, and contradict it is quite ridiculous all told. And it looks like you're gonna get a whole treatise on how there are none righteous really doesn't mean what it says. You must be overjoyed...??? And this is the whole point of much of what these people say... It boils down to scripture does not mean what it says ... it means what they want it to.

 

[Cameron143]

As @HeIsHere is explaining from Scripture Rom8 is not saying what you're saying.

Another thing is these translations, which one who checks various ones can see that there are some issues in translation:

NKJ Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

NET Romans 8:7 because the outlook of the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to the law of God, nor is it able to do so.

ESV Romans 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

Literally the latter 2 are closer and it says, "the mindset (the faculty of fixing one's mind on something) [of] the flesh.

This is why Paul is commanding Christians to not set their mind - their thinking on things of flesh (and the world). And, again, Paul has just come out of Rom7 explaining the inner battle of a man who wants to do the will of God but sees sin at work inside him. So, it's not a discussion of no unbeliever being able to believe in God, but of the battle going on inside a man that Christians are still going to have to deal with but under Grace in Spirit in which they can win the battle.

The mind of an unsaved person is always in the flesh. Regardless of the explanation, you have people who cannot please God pleasing God.

 

[Cameron143]

How carnally minded are they to be able to see how much better it was being Hebrew and having the Hebrew God as their own God?

Seems pretty rational to me.

Rahab said I have heard the RUMORS and STORIES about the Great Victories your God has done. He surely is going to defeat Jericho. If I help you then save me and take me with you. Seems pretty rational to me.

Those who come to that understanding didn't do so apart from the working of God. That's my point.
Revelation is given progressively. Because something isn't introduced until the NT doesn't mean it wasn't always true.

 

[Cameron143]

It doesn't even have to do with not understanding reformed theology because really what it boils down to is they ignore reject and outright deny the Scriptural verses that speak to man's natural state ... that his heart is incurably wicked, that he cannot change himself... that he is dead in tresspassesy and sin... A slave to sin, a lover of darkness, suppressing the truth in unrighteousness, inherently hostile in his mind toward God, hearing the gospel as foolishness... The bad tree that cannot bring forth good fruit. Jesus said it was impossible with man but they claim with man it is possible. Scripture attests that is not by the will or effort or desire of man but by the will and desire of God. Just more for them to contradict and deny. There is so much they reject, deny, and contradict it is quite ridiculous all told. And it looks like you're gonna get a whole treatise on how there are none righteous really doesn't mean what it says. You must be overjoyed...??? And this is the whole point of much of what these people say... It boils down to scripture does not mean what it says ... it means what they want it to.

All good points, but all scripture that undergirds the reformed faith. But you are correct: at it's base is the refusal to accept the truth concerning the limitations of the fallen natural man and the ways of God. Ultimately, they exalt man and diminish God.

 

[Rufus]

That is works?

Nothing listed there claims works.

Does your denial of Scriptural truth blind you to assumption?

Your post didn't mention anything about faith! And besides, you did basically say that man is okay with God if he tries to his best to keep his Law.

 

[Rufus]

See how you dance around the truth and never answer the question?

I'm dancing around the truth, but you cannot answer my question? Is an omniscient God like a mere mortal who must acquire knowledge in order to learn things?

 

[Rufus]

RUFUS

Good point. However, perhaps the past tense statement is one showing that truly; from The Begging He had appointed certain Ones to salvation. He is The Creator, after all.

Does One really chose the path They walk? Of is IT a given? After all; He is The Creator of His creation. I have not thought deeply in That before.

DeepSeeker

How you answer those questions I highlighted all depends on how you interpret Prov 16:1, 9, 19:21; 20:24; 21:1; Jer 10:23; Dan 5:23, etc.

 

[Rufus]

No thanks. I'm pretty sure @GWH would agree with my choice to refuse your suggestion. Why you're dragging him into this discussion is unclear. Maybe you meant @lrs68. No matter, though.

What's important in Ex1-3 is the mindset of the kings about Israel and thus how they view or will view Israel's God after Joseph's death.

When we get to the king of Egypt - Pharaoh - at the time of Moses and the subject of Ex4:21, this is said about him just before this in the Text:

NKJ Ex3:15-20 Moreover God said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: 'The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.' 16 "Go and gather the elders of Israel together, and say to them, 'The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared to me, saying, "I have surely visited you and seen what is done to you in Egypt; 17 "and I have said I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt to the land of the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Amorites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, to a land flowing with milk and honey."' 18 "Then they will heed your voice; and you shall come, you and the elders of Israel, to the king of Egypt; and you shall say to him, 'The LORD God of the Hebrews has met with us; and now, please, let us go three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.' 19 "But I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not even by a mighty hand. 20 "So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My wonders which I will do in its midst; and after that he will let you go.

The affliction of Israel in Egypt has been going on for a few generations after Joseph's death and the new king of Ex1:8. This is not the same king as Ex3:15 above who is the Pharoah of Ex4:21. We can see his affliction of Israel above and as God says in Ex3:19 "I am sure that the king will not let you go, not even by a mighty hand."

This is the history and the context for Ex4:21 and it's clear what God thinks of Pharoah before that verse. I'm comfortable that Pharoah is in a line of kings with hard hearts towards Israel and their God and that the above Scriptures in close context to Ex4:21 and Scripture from Ex1:8 on make clear what the line of Pharaohs thought about Israel and their God.

Additionally, there is a lot of research and debate as to who these Pharaohs were. This linked excerpt provides some substantial research and thinking on the matter. It has this to say about the Pharaoh they believe is this above discussed Pharaoh (my highlight of #3.c:

1. Thutmoses III was great, powerful and prideful vs. weak Amenhotep II
   1. Thutmoses III was one of the greatest and most powerful Pharaohs of Egypt. He is in the class of Herod the Great in 39 BC and Hadrian in 135 AD. Thutmoses III’s son, Amenhotep II, was small, insignificant and unaccomplished in contrast.
   2. The 17 campaigns of Thutmoses III into the promised land and surrounding areas (Levant), are numbered successively throughout his reign. His 17 campaigns started in the second year and then one campaign each year for the next 17 years, then they ended in 1446! This means that his last campaign ended in year 18 after Hatshepsut died! Thutmoses III’s military conquests softened up Canaan for the eventual conquest of Joshua 40 years later.
   3. When you are looking for a powerful prideful Pharaoh that God wanted to humble, Thutmoses III is the man.
   4. This where Thutmoses III’s second born son, Amenhotep II is a poor candidate for the pharaoh of the exodus because he was weak and ineffective! Amenhotep II had only two military campaigns, in contrast to his father’s seventeen.
   5. Thutmoses III conquered the Mitanni with a powerful surprise attack on his eighth campaign (1436 BC), but Amenhotep II merely signed peace treaties with Mitanni in year 9 of his reign (1422 BC).

There you go digging more stupid, equivocating rabbit trails. I don't give a good flip about who all the prior Egyptian pharaohs were. There is no biblical text that says that God way back in Hebrew history hardened the hearts of all the Pharaoh's that succeeded the Pharaoh who was kind to Joseph and his family. The Exodus narrative deals with only ONE Pharaoh and that is the one who was confronted by Moses. And it's that Pharaoh's heart whom God hardened! And that is the BIBLICAL context of Ex 4!

Take your eisegetical methodology and stick in your ear already, Mr. Eisegesis!

 

[Rufus]

The answer is 0. Knowledge of the existence of God has never saved anyone. Faith has always been birthed by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

In the insane, absurd, chaotic, confusing world of FWT, man is born again either by Special [divine] Revelation and the Holy Spirit or by Natural Revelation. Funny, though, how Paul is silent on how many souls were saved because they were to able to decode the secret message of the celestial hosts in the heavens to discern gospel truth.

 

[Rufus]

Yes but you are trying to make this passage about unregenerate people it is not... much like this one it is about believers.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

But the carnal mind/person is not born unable to believe in/trust in and have faith in Christ Jesus and the Good News... no where does scripture state this.

This is the hurdle you have not in all these pages, actually dealt with using scripture to support this Reformed claim.

Translate: "the carnal mind/person is" born in a perfectly healthy state. He's not born blind, deaf, helpless, enslaved, imprisoned or dead or in need of any divine rescuing.

 

[Rufus]

It doesn't even have to do with not understanding reformed theology because really what it boils down to is they ignore reject and outright deny the Scriptural verses that speak to man's natural state ... that his heart is incurably wicked, that he cannot change himself... that he is dead in tresspassesy and sin... A slave to sin, a lover of darkness, suppressing the truth in unrighteousness, inherently hostile in his mind toward God, hearing the gospel as foolishness... The bad tree that cannot bring forth good fruit. Jesus said it was impossible with man but they claim with man it is possible. Scripture attests that is not by the will or effort or desire of man but by the will and desire of God. Just more for them to contradict and deny. There is so much they reject, deny, and contradict it is quite ridiculous all told. And it looks like you're gonna get a whole treatise on how there are none righteous really doesn't mean what it says. You must be overjoyed...??? And this is the whole point of much of what these people say... It boils down to scripture does not mean what it says ... it means what they want it to.

Studier obviously thinks the sons of men possess the power that God doesn't; for unlike their Creator they have the power to change their nature in the same way the Ethiopian and the leopard can.

 

[Magenta]

Studier obviously thinks the sons of men possess the power that God doesn't; for unlike their Creator they have the power to change their nature in the same way the Ethiopian and the leopard can.

I am beginning to understand why they see no depth to the truth that Scripture puts forth when they cannot even accept what it says on a surface level.

 

[lrs68]

Revelation is given progressively.

Kind of like how God manifests Himself to people and maybe sends a Believer to visit and invite those people to Church?

 

[Cameron143]

Kind of like how God manifests Himself to people and maybe sends a Believer to visit and invite those people to Church?

Sure, but at that point we leave behind knowing God through creation and conscience, and have God dealing with you either directly or through human agency. The latter is much different than the former.