Understanding God’s election

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lrs68

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Dec 30, 2024
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I'm dancing around the truth, but you cannot answer my question? Is an omniscient God like a mere mortal who must acquire knowledge in order to learn things?
I've been kicking a few things I feel like have been given to me with deeper insight than how I once looked at it.

Let's take a look at Foreknowledge for a moment.

For those He FOREKNEW:

This is God knowing someone or something before they ever existed. But it donned onto me that is this the Omniscient ALL KNOWING side of God? Or did we exist before the foundation of the world and then came into existence at our appointed time and the spirit side of our being reconnected when God called us out of darkness?

Think for a moment about the [(PASSION)] side of our being. What is it you just enjoy doing the most? I teach and preach. My PASSION is for anyone I am able to speak to and them hear I want them to know about God. So could have my spirit existed before the foundation of the world and my PASSION was to preach and teach and when I was formed in the Union of my parents I was destined to be as I was before I became who I am?
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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The Nature of God's Foreknowledge: Prescience or Prerogative?

Since I'm on a roll proving just how pathetically impotent FWers are in that they have zero ability to answer tough questions, I'm going to demolish one of the most mighty of their "strong towers" to FWT: their ridiculously absurd understanding of the doctrine of Foreknowledge, which totally contradicts other doctrines they have created, although they are totally oblivious to those contradictions which the silly notion of "prescience" presents. Self-Awareness is not a FWer strong suit. But before we get to the crux of the matter with Foreknowledge, we should refresh our memories about some of those other doctrines they invented so that we'll be able to see clearly those contradictions.

First, we have God's "omnilove" (so-called) invented by GWH. God just loves everyone to death, even those He never knew in eternity!:rolleyes:

Secondly, FWer's reduce God to a passive spectator in the universe in terms of man's salvation; for it's not God's grace that is effectual bur rather man's "freewill" choice is the ultimate, primary and final determinant of man's eternal destiny.

Thirdly, this reduces God to a mere opportunity maker, since His grace is ineffectual! God gives all mankind, without exception, equal opportunity to exercise their "freewill" to save themselves. This is how FWers portray God's role in salvation through his weak, lame, ineffective attempt to save all. He presents "all" with opportunities.

Fourthly, God is likened to an EOE (equal opportunity employer) because He's not willing or desirous that anyone should perish according to how FWer's interpret passages like 2Pet 3:9, 1Tim 2:4, etc.

So, with these FWT constructs serving as a backdrop or framework with which to scrutinize FWT's understanding of the biblical doctrine of Foreknowledge, let's begin our little journey.

We already know that virtually all FWers believe that the Gr. term "proginosko" (Strong's 4267) rendered "foreknew" in Rom 8:29; 11:2, etc. means man's actions instead of just persons. They shamelessy and unabashedly and unapologetically read into Rom 8:29 "For those whom God foreknew would believe, He also predestined...". (Nice piece of eisegesis which scripture strictly forbids!) Obvously, FWers believe that an all-knowing, omniscient God must first learn things about his moral creatures so that He can act accordingly. They tell us that God knows all things about all people, and he did this in eternity. So, all this knowlege that God acquired in eternity is FIXED! It's etched in stone! And God would never, ever tamper with man's "freewill" choices, so this means that all of mankind's spiritual choices are fixed certainty! After all, man's eternal destiny is soley in his hands and not in God's! This is very important to remember.

Of course, those of the Reformed faith are lambasted and criticized for understanding "foreknowledge" as essentially the embodiment of Divine Prerogative. We have all heard their stupid, ill-conceived arguments such as: God forces his will upon people; God picks winners and losers; God would be treating people with partiality, etc., etc. -- and they rail against the Doctrines of Grace totally oblivous to the fatal flaws to their own prescience view of foreknowledge, which I will now reveal in this post.

1. Jesus said of Judas that it would have been better for him to not have been born rather than for him to exist and commit the worse crime in human history. Well, how is it any different, in principle, between Judas and the rest of humanity? Since God knows with certainty how each and every human being, who hears the gospel is going to respond to it, wouldn't it have been infintiely more loving, compassionate and merciful of God to not have decreed the existence of all his enemies? Why didn't God just decree the existence of those he knew would respond positively? If God is so loving, merciful, gracious and kind why did He decree the existence of all unbelievers who He clearly knew would choose eternal damnation for themselves? Instead, God is certainly willing to let all unbelievers self-destruct and perish in the Lake of Fire for all eternity, in spite of FWers rhetoric to the contrary.

2. Given the absolute, fixed certainty of men's choices, this means that sinners in hell were not able to change their own destiny by doing a choice do-over. In other words, the sons of men are imprisoned within their own choices. They are in fact HELPLESS, for they wound up in hell because they were unable to extricate themselves from the fixed certainty of their own decisions. Man-induced Determinism is alive and well in FWT! So is Fatalism, since man's choices are irreversible just as a fatal physical disease would be. But wouldn't a truly loving, merciful and compassionate God do as the Good Samaritan did and actually come to the the rescue of such helpless people?

3. Perhaps the most absurd implication to the presicence view of foreknowledge with respect to spiritual choices is that God, possessing all this knowledge about how each and every person will respond to the Gospel, is still nevertheless desperately trying in space and time to save everyone by offering them opportunities for salvation that he foreknew in eternity with certainty they would never accept in time and space! In other words, FWT implicitly has God perpetually chasing his tail like a moonbat, crazed lunatic -- even though he foreknew with certainty in eternity what the final outcome of his empty, vain, futile attempts would be with unbelievers who have elected themselves to become eternal sons or daughters of their spiritual father Satan.

4. The prescience view of foreknowledge reduces God down to the status of his created order; for like all his moral creatures the Potter, too, must acquire knowledge from the pots of his very own making. His created order becomes his counsellor. The creation teaches its Creator, which of course cannot be true if God is truly omniscient.













 
May 20, 2025
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See how you dance around the truth and never answer the question?
Considering Genesis 1:1

In The King James version of The Bible, the following is given.

In The Begining God created. In Genesis 1:26, The Personal Pronoun God, changes to a Plural Personal Pronoun, Us. That is, more than One person, or Being. Why?
It changes because there is now, in that statement, Two, not One. Who then, is The Other?

The direct answer to This is in this statement. Father, give to Me what I had with You in The Begining. Jesus spoke that when He was on The Cross dying.
The too, Jesus, while walking with His disciples One day; ask Them This question. "Who do men say I am" ? The disciples gave Him various answers. Then He turned to Pete and ask Him the same question. Peter said: "You are the son of Man": To whoch Jesus said to Him. Peter, You are blessed to understand th
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;

who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;

Not everyone that God manifests Himself to falls under this category. It even specified it is WHO HINDER THE TRUTH IN RIGHTEOUSNESS. Clearly not every person without God is doing that.
Ah Ha!
 
Jul 3, 2015
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All good points, but all scripture that undergirds the reformed faith. But you are correct: at it's base is the refusal to accept the truth concerning the limitations of the fallen natural man and the ways of God. Ultimately, they exalt man and diminish God.
They rationalize rejecting a plethora of Scripture verses by attaching some man's name to it that they don't like... doesn't matter how much those same concepts are echoed throughout the good book from the beginning to the end... And in many places they contradict the very words of Jesus Christ Himself.
 

Hui1

Active member
Jun 13, 2023
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He draws them to Himself. The ways God does this are myriad. You no doubt have your own testimony, as do others. God works through human agency, life circumstances, personal revelation, etc. And if I've made any accusation, it is that you go beyond the text in your explanation.I have a question.It is the Bible of Israel and the Bible of ordinary believers.Isn't it different?I heard it for the first time.This kind of surprises me.Who can help to answer this question?Thank you.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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I'm happy to try to answer your question, but I'm not exactly sure what you are asking. Can you try asking it again?
 

Hui1

Active member
Jun 13, 2023
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I'm happy to try to answer your question, but I'm not exactly sure what you are asking. Can you try asking it again?
I'm sorry, my expression is not clear, originally.My question isThe Bible of Israel and us Are Christian Bibles the same? I hope the translation software can be accurate·Thank you for replying to me.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
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You can talk your way around what I have shared, but the math is simple:

...without faith, it is impossible to please God
...those operating from a carnal mind cannot please God
...unbelievers always operate from a carnal mind
yet none of that math says the unbeliever cannot believe the Gospel.
 

studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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The mind of an unsaved person is always in the flesh. Regardless of the explanation, you have people who cannot please God pleasing God.
Actually, I have unbelievers able to believe based upon God's initiative, and subsequent to that transition able to please God.
 

studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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There you go digging more stupid, equivocating rabbit trails. I don't give a good flip about who all the prior Egyptian pharaohs were. There is no biblical text that says that God way back in Hebrew history hardened the hearts of all the Pharaoh's that succeeded the Pharaoh who was kind to Joseph and his family. The Exodus narrative deals with only ONE Pharaoh and that is the one who was confronted by Moses. And it's that Pharaoh's heart whom God hardened! And that is the BIBLICAL context of Ex 4!

Take your eisegetical methodology and stick in your ear already, Mr. Eisegesis!
IOW, you don't like what YHWH had to say in Ex3 that I posted for your edification. Nothing new here.
 

studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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Studier obviously thinks the sons of men possess the power that God doesn't; for unlike their Creator they have the power to change their nature in the same way the Ethiopian and the leopard can.
Actually, they have the ability to change their mind and believe in response to God who then changes their nature.