I could answer that, but first, can you tell me how your questions about Paul relate to the title of this thread?
God, co-actor in Jesus' sufferings or contributive non-actor?
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I could answer that, but first, can you tell me how your questions about Paul relate to the title of this thread?
Yes. What was Paul sent to do? To was He sent? Keep that which Paul was given to say, to Whom He was to say it to.
Deepseeker
Deepseeker
Although I'm still unsure what your questions have to do with the thread title, which asks whether God was a "co-actor" in the sufferings of His Son, I' ll have a go at answering. Paul was specifically sent to preach the gospel to the Gentiles. Peter was sent mainly to the Jews. But with neither of them was it exclusive. Paul did preach the gospel to Jews living in many of the places he visited on his missionary journeys, and God sent Peter to preach to Cornelius, a Gentile. I don't believe that as Christians today, we have to say (if we are Gentile Christians), "Well, Peter was the apostle to the Jews, so I won't bother with his two letters," or (if we are Jewish Christians), "Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, so I don't need to read or believe his epistles."
I don't see the physical suffering and death of Jesus at the hands of men, as the mechanism for our salvation. In fact what we need saved from is not physical death but spiritual death. We need to be rescued from the Lake of fire yet since we are sinners that's where we deserve to go.
If suffering at the hands of men could pay for my sins, could someone other than Christ volunteer to take my place, would that be sufficient?
If physical suffering at the hands of men on a cross is the price that needs paid for my sins, then Ill just pay it myself, sure Ild rather not have to undergo it but hey if it means I have taken and paid the judgment for my sins and have therefore attained eternal life in the resurrection then ill take the punishment myself, the thought of the loveliest of man to walk the earth nay the creator taking my place on a cross if He doesnt have to it would be repulsive to me.
But, He does have to.
For it's Gods judgment that I fear not mans judgment and its Gods judgment that Christ bore for us when God poured out his wroth on Him. The bit that's hard to comprehend is how Christ could bear the spiritual judgment of God, to be separated from the Father and to bear the judgment of the soul. Something mere man cannot inflict upon me.
Isaiah 53:10
King James Version
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin
I actually am repenting of my opinion that God did not cause physical harm to Jesus as I am reading Isaiah 53 in a new light and hopefully correctly. If I am correct it could be seen that Jesus' entire sufferings was God-done. God handed him over and supernaturally inflicted his sufferings through men.
Isaiah 53:4-5 King James Version
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
There's no language here to say he was not smitten of God when it goes on to say that he was wounded for our transgressions, so I think it is safe to think that his entire suffering was God-done.
Sorry if my opinion bothered anybody, I just kept reading verse 4 and 5 wrong and it threw off my reading of this chapter which I think might have contributed to me coming to the wrong conclusion.
Isaiah 53:4-5 King James Version
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
There's no language here to say he was not smitten of God when it goes on to say that he was wounded for our transgressions, so I think it is safe to think that his entire suffering was God-done.
Sorry if my opinion bothered anybody, I just kept reading verse 4 and 5 wrong and it threw off my reading of this chapter which I think might have contributed to me coming to the wrong conclusion.
Sorry
yes, I was being rhetorical 
. Also , Jesus did say : thy will not mine be done , in his prayer in Gethsemane .
D
Daisy2
Guest
Because the whole Bible is relevant. The Bible shouldn't only be viewed in the historical context; otherwise, what would that say about our Heavenly Father and our faith? The Bible say the words of God is alive and active.
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Thanks, no need to apologise!Sorry
“Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”
Isaiah 53:4-6 KJV
I believe the crucifixion of our Lord is very intricate. It is not only about pain and suffering but also preparation according to fulfill the sin offering given to Israel from God. In other words both jew and gentile is represented and depicted in it.
Jesus was the lamb of God in his first coming. To be sacrificed according to scripture. Which he was.
But we also remember he was handed over to the gentile to be executed in a pagan matter.
The amazing part of this all is the punishment he received and the trauma of the cross did not kill him.
Jesus said no man takes my life but I lay it down. For I have power to lay it down and to pick it up.
Jesus endured the wrath of God for all of mankind.
For the glory that was set before him he endured the cross.
Another interesting tid bit is the crucifixion proves who he is..(The son of God. )
It proves the virgin birth and Christ being diety.
All Mary had to do was confess to the chief priests or high priest that Joseph or the milk man was the father of Jesus.
That would of discredited Jesus claim and ministry that are found through out the gospels.
This is why you see the puns the pharisees have saying isn't this the son of Joseph?...isn't this the son of the carpenter?
They just couldn't let that go.
Now ask yourself could any loving parent stand by and watch there child go through what our Lord went through on a lie?
Mary and his brother's even said he was not of a right mind yet never did Mary cave in against the truth.
The faithfulness of Mary, something to think about
Jesus was the lamb of God in his first coming. To be sacrificed according to scripture. Which he was.
But we also remember he was handed over to the gentile to be executed in a pagan matter.
The amazing part of this all is the punishment he received and the trauma of the cross did not kill him.
Jesus said no man takes my life but I lay it down. For I have power to lay it down and to pick it up.
Jesus endured the wrath of God for all of mankind.
For the glory that was set before him he endured the cross.
Another interesting tid bit is the crucifixion proves who he is..(The son of God. )
It proves the virgin birth and Christ being diety.
All Mary had to do was confess to the chief priests or high priest that Joseph or the milk man was the father of Jesus.
That would of discredited Jesus claim and ministry that are found through out the gospels.
This is why you see the puns the pharisees have saying isn't this the son of Joseph?...isn't this the son of the carpenter?
They just couldn't let that go.
Now ask yourself could any loving parent stand by and watch there child go through what our Lord went through on a lie?
Mary and his brother's even said he was not of a right mind yet never did Mary cave in against the truth.
The faithfulness of Mary, something to think about