Understanding God’s election

[Pilgrimshope]

Hebrews 9:28
So Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation
without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

Christians are not judged with respect to any sin that they have committed, when Jesus returns.

Because their sins have already been forgiven and they are perfectly righteous.

We are rewarded by Jesus not judged.

There is no fear when you love

“Christians are not judged with respect to any sin that they have committed, when Jesus returns.”

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11

Every person will be judged by thier deeds . Christian’s know and believe Christ the judge so for instance

“Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:36-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

thats so valuable because we do all have to be judged for everything we do and have said do Jesus teachings become our doctrine knowing this is true

“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-11‬ ‭NIV‬‬

as Christian’s were supposed to hear and believe the judges judgements in the gospel…..before it’s too late .

“Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:1-2‬ ‭

Paul’s teaching that in Roman’s 2 there are his intro in the start of the chapter someone was judging other sinners while they themselves also were a sinner Paul’s warning to him was that if he didn’t repent he was going to condemn himself and was storing up wrath against himself because he was judging and condemning others while himself being less than perfect ….

Our sin is forgiven but how we treat others now will determine our judgement come judgement day if we aren’t merciful and gracious and forgive others then we can expect to be treated the same way according to Jesus the judge

We’re all going to be judged …..it can be merciful or without mercy if we don’t show mercy towards others

“For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But like Jesus the lord taught if we are merciful we’re going to receive mercy , if we forgive we’re going to be forgiven if we don’t condemn we won’t be condemned and by the same measure we use and judge others we are going to be judged the same way


Grace isn’t just for me , it’s for everyone else too and meant to come from me

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The problem is that God's Word is not being acknowledged by the free will
crowd when so many verses get ignored, contradicted, and outright denied.

Like saying everyone hears. Jesus makes plain everyone does not hear.

That is just one example. I have given many over the last few months.

I don't think you like seeing them at all.

“The problem is that God's Word is not being acknowledged by the free will
crowd when so many verses get ignored, contradicted, and outright denied. “

But ……you guys never” deny contradict or ignore scripture “ though?

 

[Magenta]

“The problem is that God's Word is not being acknowledged by the free will
crowd when so many verses get ignored, contradicted, and outright denied. “

But ……you guys never” deny contradict or ignore scripture “ though?

I have yet to see any verse proclaiming that the natural man can choose to believe what he can neither receive nor comprehend, considering the gospel message foolishness while under the power and influence of the devil. But of course you can give no examples of any such verses for such free will because they simply do not exist... so they can't be denied, duh. Plus you refused to deal with what I actually sad, as usual.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I have yet to see any verse proclaiming that the natural man can choose to believe what he can neither receive nor comprehend, considering the gospel message foolishness while under the power and influence of the devil. But of course you can give no examples of any such verses for such free will because they simply do not exist... so they can't be denied, duh. Plus you refused to deal with what I actually sad, as usual.

By asking a simple question once again lol I’ve mis represented what you said to me ? That seems to be a go to excuse and reason to avoid what’s actually said honestly but just my own opinion .

My goodness ….you accused people of ignoring scripture I simply asked don’t you do the same thing ? That’s not me misrepresenting anything 😂

it’s you avoiding answering a simple question this response is a perfect example of why it’s really hard to have a discussion with you lately sis ….

 

[Magenta]

By asking a simple question once again lol I’ve mis represented what you said to me ? That seems to be a go to excuse and reason to avoid what’s actually said honestly but just my own opinion .

My goodness ….you accused people of ignoring scripture I simply asked don’t you do the same thing ? That’s not me misrepresenting anything 😂

it’s you avoiding answering a simple question this response is a perfect example of why it’s really hard to have a discussion with you lately sis ….

Uh, I said nothing about misrepresentation to you. And you did not address what I said beyond trying to turn the tables when there are no verses for us to ignore, since none exist. Why you gotta go off into the weeds like that all the time? It just looks bad on you, all these smoke screens and diversionary tactics. Yeah, tactics. I never wanted to have any dispute with you, and you accuse me again and again, giving zero examples of denying verses, just make something up and hope it sticks. And then you say, oh this is why I don't talk to you, when you refuse to own up to your behavior, you have zero accountability. Laughable your "lately" when I have had you on ignore for many months. Back you go. Maybe some day when you can take responsibility for your false accusations there can be some kind of reconciliation.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Uh, I said nothing about misrepresentation to you. And you did not address what I said beyond trying to turn the tables when there are no verses for us to ignore, since none exist. Why you gotta go off into the weeds like that all the time? It just looks bad on you, all these smoke screens and diversionary tactics. Yeah, tactics. I never wanted to have any dispute with you, and you accuse me again and again, giving zero examples of denying verses, just make something up and hope it sticks. And then you say, oh this is why I don't talk to you, when you refuse to own up to your behavior, you have zero accountability. Laughable your "lately" when I have had you on ignore for many months. Back you go. Maybe some day when you can take responsibility for your false accusations there can be some kind of reconciliation.

“Uh, I said nothing about misrepresentation to you. “

i can’t bring myself to even read ost this part it’s always what you claim

“Plus ll you said to me was this ….you refused to deal with what I actually said, as usual.”

This is what you said to me magenta anyone can read this

“The problem is that God's Word is not being acknowledged by the free will
crowd when so many verses get ignored, contradicted, and outright denied. “

And I responded with this to you in response to tbat

“But ……you guys never” deny contradict or ignore scripture “ though?”

lol sis that’s a direct reply to what you said . And this was your response to that sensible point that . You guys do exactly what you said “ the free Will crowd “does.

“have yet to see any verse proclaiming that the natural man can choose to believe what he can neither receive nor comprehend, considering the gospel message foolishness while under the power and influence of the devil. But of course you can give no examples of any such verses for such free will because they simply do not exist... so they can't be denied, duh. Plus you refused to deal with what I actually sad, as usual”

total avoidance and f my sinple question that you obviously won’t acknolwedge , and back to the “ natural Man “ speech again and once again telling me I’ve ignored what you said and never responded to it somehow offending and victimizing you once again like I do to poor Cameron . 😂

you guys were both good friends when I agreed with you lol but boy once you found out I believe people have free Will and can choose between good and evil and will be held accountable tbat sure changed . Now I’m just always somehow offending you two

to be honest I’d be alright with going back to avoiding talking at this point sis noting personal but it’s just so circular like just spinning wheels in sand . I do t have any interest in hearing about how the “ natural “ unchosen man can’t hear what God said.

I had just responded to what you said to me , to sort of show you that what you said was rather hypocritical because some people on both sides of this debate ignore scripture when it doesn’t suit thier argument. Was pretty simple and was a response to what you said to me

a I do t want to chat with you if your going to always be offended sis I’d rather not talk at all than to argue with you that’s the truth of how I feel love you on cjrost and don’t want to argue anymore

 

[DavidLamb]

I have a question for This Room.
Why was The Apostle Paul sent to The Gentiles ? IF He was sent by God to Them, and was given A New Program for Them, then why do people Today mix all programs of The Scriptures together ? ?
Deepseeker

You seem to be under the impression that the gospel for the Gentiles that Paul preached was somehow different to the gospel preached to the Jews. It wasn't. The gospel in both cases is that we are all sinners by nature, and deserve only God's punishment, but God sent His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ to e the Saviour of sinners. Those sinners who believe in Him are saved and granted eternal life.

 

[HeIsHere]

Naw I never said you offended. But nevermind anyways I’ll move on

Suffice it so to say the "total inability" as preached by the Reformed (aka Calvinist camp) has not been proven by scripture.

To be dead means to be "separated". As in the prodigal son. When the son returns to the father (because he was able to) the father says, "This son of mine was dead, but has now come back to life. He was lost and has now been found."
This is because being "spiritually dead" has nothing to do with being unable to turn to God.

Scripture informs us that man is separated (dead) from God at birth, this does not equate to a person born unable/unwilling to respond to the Gospel message unless there is some unique divine intervention ( unique to that particular person).
Strong emphasis on unique.

Using one's personal experience to interpret scripture is not exegesis.

The statement "so you saved yourself" is just their accusatory attempt to cover up their anti-biblical doctrine.

According to this Reformed doctrine, God in his sovereign wisdom saw fit and intended to make man in such a way that he would only hate God after Adam's fall. Does this make God the author of evil...hmm?

In this dogma, God brought about the horrible sinful condition of man as a result of Adam's fall such that man would "not be as sinful as he could be.... but just sinful enough that he can't positively respond to the truth and power inherent in the Gospel message.

You can debate free will till the cows come home, but think about what is being stated....

God is the one who has supposedly created man in such a state that he cannot respond positively to the Gospel.
Does that really make any sense at all, does that really fit in with the character and life of Jesus, plain ridiculous right on its face.

 

[HeIsHere]

FTFY. And I couldn't agree more. FWT has spiritually dead sinners raising themselves up from their spiritual tombs by the mighty power of their "freewill". It has spiritually dead sinners changing their own natures -- which God himself can't even do. FWT says that Ethiopians and leopards also have the power have the power to change their nature! "Cognitive dissonance" reigns supreme in FWT!

Nobody has ever stated that free will saves or it changes their nature, it just that Reformed theology creates a fallen nature of inability to believe the Gospel which is not in line with scripture to fit their system.
Keep trying.

 

[Kroogz]

Suffice it so to say the "total inability" as preached by the Reformed (aka Calvinist camp) has not been proven by scripture.

The Bible is replete with His Gospel message to unbelievers.

It is simply laughable for believers to say," We have no ability to believe it."

 

[HeIsHere]

The Bible is replete with His Gospel message to unbelievers.

It is simply laughable for believers to say," We have no ability to believe it."

Reformed theology ...... beyond our understanding it is!!

 

[Kroogz]

Reformed theology ...... beyond our understanding it is!!

We understand it all too well......That is the problem.

 

[HeIsHere]

We understand it all too well......That is the problem.

Agree, Christianity was very different before the Calvies decided to make other churches their mission field.

 

[Magenta]

Suffice it so to say the "total inability" as preached by the Reformed (aka Calvinist camp) has not been proven by scripture.

Blind people say such things. I suppose you are ignorant of the fact that Arminianism and Molinism also teach man's inability. That is because it is solidly Biblically based. Your ignorance really should not surprise me, or anyone by now. You simply disagree with a plethora of Scriptures. Believing what the Bible actually says is not anti-Biblical as you call it. Your inability to give any verses to support your view is quite telling, though. It goes a long way to showing that what you believe is based on the traditions of men and vain philosophy. In your theology, the natural man is not such a bad guy, after all, despite all that is said of him in the negative and especially from God's point of view, from the beginning of the book to the end. And you deny the very words of Jesus over and over and over again, on many counts... but you don't care.

Man's depravity vs God's Grace ~
Man is deceitful (Jeremiah 17 verse 9), full of evil (Mark 7 verses 21-23), loves darkness rather
than light (John 3 verse 19), cannot come to God on his own (John 6 verse 44), does not seek for God
(Romans 3 verses 10-12), is helpless and ungodly (Romans 5 verse 6), nothing good dwells in his flesh
(Romans 7 verse 18), is a slave of sin (Romans 6 verse 20; John 8 verse 34; 2 Timothy 2 verse 26), cannot
receive spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2 verse 14), is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2 verse 1), is by nature
a child of wrath (Ephesians 2 verse 3), is at enmity with God (Ephesians 2 verse 15), hostile to God and cannot
submit to God's law (Romans 8 verse 7). Therefore we rightfully conclude in accordance with the conditions described
of the natural man in Scripture that his inherent inclination is to reject God. Thanks be to God, Who appoints people
to believe (Acts 13 verse 48), chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Ephesians 1 verse 4), predestines us to adoption
(Ephesians 1 verse 5), calls according to His purpose (2 Timothy 1 verse 9), chooses us for salvation (2 Thessalonians 2
verse 13), leads us to and grants us repentance (Romans 2 verse 4; 2 Timothy 2 verses 24-25), grants the act of believing
(Philippians 1 verse 29), works faith in the believer (John 6 verses 28-29), causes us to be born again (1 Peter 1 verse 3),
born again not by our will but by His will (John 1 verses 12-13), draws people to Himself (John 6 verse 44), grants that we
come to Jesus (John 6 verse 65), predestines us to salvation (Romans 8 verses 29- 30), and circumcises our heart
(Romans 2 verse 29), all according to His purpose (Ephesians 1 verse 11).

 

[rogerg]

To be dead means to be "separated". As in the prodigal son. When the son returns to the father (because he was able to) the father says, "This son of mine was dead, but has now come back to life. He was lost and has now been found."
This is because being "spiritually dead" has nothing to do with being unable to turn to God.

Yes, it does mean that - exactly that - those spiritually dead of themself cannot turn to God, else, it wouldn't be God alone in the following two verses, who makes someone alive. And FYI, separation from God is death. A spiritually dead person cannot make themself spiritually alive any more than a physically dead person can make themself physically alive - the dead, both spiritually and physically, are beyond self-help - dead means dead.

[Eph 2:1, 5 KJV]
1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; ...
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

[Col 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

The same word "dead" is used in the following verses. Intent is determined by usage.

[Mat 17:9 KJV] 9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

[Mat 22:31-32 KJV]
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

[Mat 27:64 KJV] 64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.

[Mat 28:4, 7 KJV]
4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead [men]. ...
7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.

[Mar 9:9-10, 26 KJV]
9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean. ...
26 And [the spirit] cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.

[Mar 12:25-27 KJV]
25 For when they shall rise from the dead,[G3498] they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I [am] the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Luk 7:15, 22 KJV]
15 And he that was dead[G3498] sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother. ...
22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead[G3498] are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

[Luk 20:35, 37-38 KJV]
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead,[G3498] neither marry, nor are given in marriage: ...
37 Now that the dead[G3498] are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
38 For he is not a God of the dead,[G3498] but of the living: for all live unto him.

God of the dead,[G3498] but of the living: for all live unto him.

[Luk 24:5, 46 KJV]
5 And as they were afraid, and bowed down [their] faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?[G3498] ...
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead[G3498] the third day:

 

[Magenta]

Nobody has ever stated that free will saves or it changes their nature, it just that Reformed theology creates a fallen nature of inability to believe the Gospel which is not in line with scripture to fit their system.
Keep trying.

Yes you do. Your claim is that by choosing to believe of his own volition, the natural man then has his heart circumcised, which changes his nature, and choosing to believe also gives Jesus permission to raise him to new life, for Jesus would not dare do it without the man's prior permission, for according to what you believe and agree with, doing it beforehand would make God a tyrannical monster kidnapping people against their will. Being raised to new life gives one a new nature also. In fact it is what makes the natural man a spiritual man capable of receiving and comprehending the spiritual things of God. Your theology has the man who can neither receive nor comprehend choosing to believe that which is foolishness to him. You do not even see your own foolishness. Many of you free willers repeatedly display your confusion on this matter by ascribing to the natural man what only the spiritual man is capable of.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Suffice it so to say the "total inability" as preached by the Reformed (aka Calvinist camp) has not been proven by scripture.

To be dead means to be "separated". As in the prodigal son. When the son returns to the father (because he was able to) the father says, "This son of mine was dead, but has now come back to life. He was lost and has now been found."
This is because being "spiritually dead" has nothing to do with being unable to turn to God.

Scripture informs us that man is separated (dead) from God at birth, this does not equate to a person born unable/unwilling to respond to the Gospel message unless there is some unique divine intervention ( unique to that particular person).
Strong emphasis on unique.

Using one's personal experience to interpret scripture is not exegesis.

The statement "so you saved yourself" is just their accusatory attempt to cover up their anti-biblical doctrine.

According to this Reformed doctrine, God in his sovereign wisdom saw fit and intended to make man in such a way that he would only hate God after Adam's fall. Does this make God the author of evil...hmm?

In this dogma, God brought about the horrible sinful condition of man as a result of Adam's fall such that man would "not be as sinful as he could be.... but just sinful enough that he can't positively respond to the truth and power inherent in the Gospel message.

You can debate free will till the cows come home, but think about what is being stated....

God is the one who has supposedly created man in such a state that he cannot respond positively to the Gospel.
Does that really make any sense at all, does that really fit in with the character and life of Jesus, plain ridiculous right on its face.

“Scripture informs us that man is separated (dead) from God at birth, “

i don’t think I’m aware of this part. In my opinion for instance children. I don’t believe children are born “ spiritually dead “ to God or separated from him. But infact I believe he has angels watching over them from the beginning

“Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭18:10‬ ‭

i believe the world corrupts us as we live in it and things temptations come

“Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come.

It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble. So watch yourselves. “
‭‭Luke‬ ‭17:1-3‬ ‭

I believe that all are alive to God and no one’s dead to him

“For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭20:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

When people speak of being “born spiritually dead to god “ I’ve honestly never ran across that doctrine in the Bible . I don’t think we’re born condemned I believe we are condemned by the sins we commit in our lives based on our deeds.

always open to learning things but I’ve never learned bout being spiritually dead.


“God is the one who has supposedly created man in such a state that he cannot respond positively to the Gospel.
Does that really make any sense at all, does that really fit in with the character and life of Jesus, plain ridiculous right on its face”

yes it’s ridiculous I agree , some don’t recognize God gave man agency at creation so it’s always going to matter what we choose to serve good or evil. If we choose God he’ll save us if we choose the world we’ll burn with it.

The idea no one can really choose ….is an excuse not to choose.

 

[Rufus]

No. You have not.

What about all the infants, babies, toddlers, young children, mentally handicapped, etc. who never heard the gospel before they died? If your going to make the stupendous claim that God ensures that every person on the planet w/o exception hears the gospel, then there must be NO EXCEPTIONS! Moreover, even scripture itself refutes your grossly exaggerated claim! See Act 16:6 wherein it is recorded that the Holy Spirit specifically forbid the apostles from preaching the Word in ASIA! And Asia is a pretty large piece real estate the last time I checked.

 

[Rufus]

Native Americans had access to the gospel before explorers came? Inland China had access to the gospel before missionaries arrived?

And what about all the Eskimos living in frigid climes? Or the Pygmies living in Australia, etc.? How many centuries did it take before the Gospel came to these kinds of remote places?

 

[Rufus]

“Scripture informs us that man is separated (dead) from God at birth, “

i don’t think I’m aware of this part. In my opinion for instance children. I don’t believe children are born “ spiritually dead “ to God or separated from him. But infact I believe he has angels watching over them from the beginning

“Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭18:10‬ ‭

i believe the world corrupts us as we live in it and things temptations come

“Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come.

It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble. So watch yourselves. “
‭‭Luke‬ ‭17:1-3‬ ‭

I believe that all are alive to God and no one’s dead to him

“For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭20:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

When people speak of being “born spiritually dead to god “ I’ve honestly never ran across that doctrine in the Bible . I don’t think we’re born condemned I believe we are condemned by the sins we commit in our lives based on our deeds.

always open to learning things but I’ve never learned bout being spiritually dead.


“God is the one who has supposedly created man in such a state that he cannot respond positively to the Gospel.
Does that really make any sense at all, does that really fit in with the character and life of Jesus, plain ridiculous right on its face”

yes it’s ridiculous I agree , some don’t recognize God gave man agency at creation so it’s always going to matter what we choose to serve good or evil. If we choose God he’ll save us if we choose the world we’ll burn with it.

The idea no one can really choose ….is an excuse not to choose.

No! The correct idea is that no one innately wants to choose because all men's hearts are evil by nature, and man cannot make choices contrary to their nature. God cannot sin for the simple reason it's not in his nature to do so; whereas man cannot not sin because it's his nature to sin! See Jer 13:23; Mat 7:17-18.