Does it help?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Shepherd

Active member
May 11, 2022
266
88
28
#1
I'm not a pastor, but I have a question or two for any pastors who will answer.
Last Sunday, Father's Day, our pastor preached a message to the fathers about manning up, shaping up, doing right, leading our families etc. He says that "on Mothers Day I 'take care of the women' but on Father's Day I get onto the men". He also proudly mentioned, in the message, about how his father and grandfather were "examples to follow". He says that, the fate of the family is ultimately the man's/father's responsibly.

When Peter and Paul, in the NT, "got onto" the church, they spoke to both the wives and the husbands in the same message. Without going into all the details which you already know, wives were typically told to "submit", and husbands were basically told to "love". There's more to it but, for the sake of brevity, I'm sure you've already read these passages. One passage though, 1 Peter 3:1-2 even gives wives a leadership role which outlines their amazing power to influence the family to change things for the better. But wives also have the power to destroy their families as well, as shown in the following verse; Proverbs 14 Every wise woman buildeth her house: but the foolish plucketh it down with her hands. I should not have to go into details for anyone about how a wife can do that. And we know we are all sinners. So why are the men loaded with all the blame on Father's Day while no significant correction at all is given to wives on their day? The Bible has it in there,. Is it because some pastors don't have the guts to do that? Id' really like to know.

Statistics show that the rate of divorces, in Christian marriages, is close to the same as in the general population of the US. Some statistics indicate that roughly 70% of those divorces are initiated by women. Some will say something like, "if men would do their part, man up and 'lead'" this wouldn't be happening". Really? Just because you're a man it's "all your fault"? I agree, we men are a sorry lot but not all of that can be the man's fault. And here we are. Men keep getting the blame and it's business as usual. I think something deeper and more sinister is at work here. I think that the Devil wants to destroy families and if he has to use our society/culture, schools, government, TV shows, lawyers, and the court system to undermine the family structure, he will do it.
Why should the CHURCH keep helping him too?
 

shittim

Senior Member
Dec 16, 2016
14,766
8,408
113
#2
I recall Chuck Swindoll teaching on how he had never seen it fail that a couple who has intimacy before marriage always reaches the point the woman will attempt to take the dominant role in the marriage.
The 60's and 70's sexual revolution did much harm.
blessings
 

Shepherd

Active member
May 11, 2022
266
88
28
#3
A quote from Chuck Swindoll:
"Interestingly the wife is not commanded to love the husband; it's great if she does, but she's not commanded to love her husband. We're commanded to love our wives....."

Umm, no, they're not given a direct "command"; the "aged women" are given that "command" to teach the young women to love their husbands, which indicates it's something God wants done. So, don't fear. guys, God wants the Mrs to love you too, instead of "it's great if she does". Seriously.

Titus2: 3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; 4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Here's another from the same message:
"When the husband is the right kind of head, there is no problem with the wife being submissive"

If that were true, then why would the Bible need to give wives commands to "submit" and even "reverence" their husbands? And was that home-wrecking, "foolish" woman in Proverbs 14, doing so because her husband was the "wrong kind of head" too?

I am intrigued by the fact that a former IFB pastor of mine taught these very same two ideas himself but, made it known on a few occasions that he didn't think too much of Chuck Swindoll's theology. It makes me wonder if all this stuff is just tradition passed down from preacher to preacher over the years, instead of men studying these things for themselves. In conclusion. Yes; God wants wives to love their husbands and commanded "aged women" to teach what he wanted. Simple as that. And no, a wife does not always just fall into line if her husband is "the right kind of leader". I think that one is the worst one of all because it's teaching wives that they don't have to submit unless "hubby" shapes up.
 

shittim

Senior Member
Dec 16, 2016
14,766
8,408
113
#4
As always, take ALL things to Him for His confirmation.
don't let cherry picked postings deceive.
blessings
 

HealthAndHappiness

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2022
12,067
5,280
113
Almost Heaven West Virginia
#5
A quote from Chuck Swindoll:
"Interestingly the wife is not commanded to love the husband; it's great if she does, but she's not commanded to love her husband. We're commanded to love our wives....."

Umm, no, they're not given a direct "command"; the "aged women" are given that "command" to teach the young women to love their husbands, which indicates it's something God wants done. So, don't fear. guys, God wants the Mrs to love you too, instead of "it's great if she does". Seriously.

Titus2: 3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; 4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Here's another from the same message:
"When the husband is the right kind of head, there is no problem with the wife being submissive"

If that were true, then why would the Bible need to give wives commands to "submit" and even "reverence" their husbands? And was that home-wrecking, "foolish" woman in Proverbs 14, doing so because her husband was the "wrong kind of head" too?

I am intrigued by the fact that a former IFB pastor of mine taught these very same two ideas himself but, made it known on a few occasions that he didn't think too much of Chuck Swindoll's theology. It makes me wonder if all this stuff is just tradition passed down from preacher to preacher over the years, instead of men studying these things for themselves. In conclusion. Yes; God wants wives to love their husbands and commanded "aged women" to teach what he wanted. Simple as that. And no, a wife does not always just fall into line if her husband is "the right kind of leader". I think that one is the worst one of all because it's teaching wives that they don't have to submit unless "hubby" shapes up.

My experience with a couple pastors has been similar.

I read Christian books and took lots of classes on marriage, family leadership and childrearing. One book on marriage was good, for the most part, but failed by reinforcing a false teaching you brought up. It was Titled, If Only He Knew. I am making a mental note right now to pull it from my library and throw it away . It promotes a philosophy that women are merely responders of their man. In marriage when there are problems, it's always a leadership problem. The author spins a convincing argument, but fails himself to see the complexity of relationships, backgrounds, the sin nature, which BTW women also have.
The sugar and spice and everything nice is way too simplistic a fantasy that can be disproven by a cursory reading of the Bible once through.

You make some good points that I also have heard taught, but at a non-denominational church, Tetelestai. A lot of good doctrine was taught there, but the false doctrine on marriage misled more than one woman to be unfaithful to their husbands.
It wasn't that he taught infidelity. However his teaching gave some women excuses for that profane abomination that destroyed families.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
10,372
4,534
113
mywebsite.us
#6
One passage though, 1 Peter 3:1-2 even gives wives a leadership role which outlines their amazing power to influence the family to change things for the better.
No - the verse is not talking about a "leadership role" for the wife; rather, it is emphasizing the importance of the wife being in submission to the husband even if/when the husband is not fully submitted to God.

1 Peter 3:

1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; 2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.

It is not the "amazing power" of the wife to influence the family - it is the "amazing power" of God to influence the husband when the unfailing submission of the wife to her husband becomes a constant reminder from God to the husband that he should be in submission to God.

When a woman is in submission to her husband (in the way that God wants her to be), it allows God to use her to do something that she herself cannot do.

That is the way it really works.

Of course, the verse is specifically referring to a born-again wife in the "role" of a witness to "win" her husband to Christ; however, the principle being illustrated would also seem to apply to a born-again husband who is not fully submitted to God.
 
Jul 7, 2022
33
16
8
#7
Some pastors see it their responsibility to chew out the slackers i their church. This is seldom helpful. One might see from Ephesians chapter four tat the whole reason there is a pastor is to reach each church member how to be more like Jesus. By this standard can anyone think of a church that is not a failure. Criticizing people is not the same as teaching. It would be better to teach how to walk by the Spirit rather than the flesh so that each member could transition from the selfishness f the flesh t the selfless love of the Spirit.

https://christianpioneer.com/lib2/wspirit/wspirit.htm
 

Shepherd

Active member
May 11, 2022
266
88
28
#8
No - the verse is not talking about a "leadership role" for the wife; rather, it is emphasizing the importance of the wife being in submission to the husband even if/when the husband is not fully submitted to God.

1 Peter 3:

1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; 2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.

It is not the "amazing power" of the wife to influence the family - it is the "amazing power" of God to influence the husband when the unfailing submission of the wife to her husband becomes a constant reminder from God to the husband that he should be in submission to God.

When a woman is in submission to her husband (in the way that God wants her to be), it allows God to use her to do something that she herself cannot do.

That is the way it really works.

Of course, the verse is specifically referring to a born-again wife in the "role" of a witness to "win" her husband to Christ; however, the principle being illustrated would also seem to apply to a born-again husband who is not fully submitted to God.

1 Peter 3:Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; 2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.

I'm not meaning she's being the "boss" if that's the way you took it. If a wife obeys the command above and humbles herself, lives a Godly life, and submits to her husband, that is something she must choose to do. Therefore, by choosing to obey the command to be "in subjection" to her husband, she is most certainly "taking the lead". Her only other choice would be to rebel against her husband, refuse to submit, do everything her way and say like many do "I'll submit if he will take the lead" and end up "tearing down her house with her hands" BTW, the Bible I read calls the husband the "head" of the house; not a mere "leader".
 

Edify

Well-known member
Jan 27, 2021
1,852
793
113
#9
\\\CONTEXT!///
 

SomeDisciple

Well-known member
Jul 4, 2021
2,618
1,216
113
#10
Statistics show that the rate of divorces, in Christian marriages, is close to the same as in the general population of the US.
Statistics show that the rate of divorce in "christian" "marriages" is close to the same.

Divorce stats across denominations vary; but there's also a stat that says it is <1% for couples that pray together daily. Who would have thought that actually believing and practicing your religion makes a difference?
 

shittim

Senior Member
Dec 16, 2016
14,766
8,408
113
#11
Doing what He tells us to do to be happy! :unsure::giggle:Who-dah thunk?(y):unsure::coffee::)
 
May 11, 2022
266
88
28
#12
Statistics show that the rate of divorce in "christian" "marriages" is close to the same.

Divorce stats across denominations vary; but there's also a stat that says it is <1% for couples that pray together daily. Who would have thought that actually believing and practicing your religion makes a difference?
Are you implying that just praying together would make all that fall into place? And how do we know how to "practice religion" if we're not taught how? And if we can simply read the Word of God for ourselves, then why do we need to listen to a preacher on Sunday? How can a wife know how and why to "submit" to her husband? How can she know that she could be unknowingly destroying her own home by refusing to submit, refusing her husband in the bedroom etc. if you teach your people that the husband is solely responsible for the fate of his home, and that if he would just "lead" the wife will automatically fall into line and do her part? Is that Biblical teaching? Christians are sinners to; even female ones. Life gets incredibly complicated. If prayer was the only remedy, why would the Holy Spirit have given all those commands to "love", "submit", and "defraud not"..... written to Christians?
 
Dec 16, 2016
14,766
8,408
113
#13
Jesus modeled how we are to live, He only did what He saw the Father do, He only said what He heard the Father say.
We are all to be filled with Holy Spirit and receiving His guidance in all things.
Most who claim to be Christian hold to an outward form only.
His Own who are Holy Spirit filled are doing greater works than He, as He said they would in these last of the last days.
best wishes:)(y):unsure::coffee:
 

Edify

Well-known member
Jan 27, 2021
1,852
793
113
#14
Jesus modeled how we are to live, He only did what He saw the Father do, He only said what He heard the Father say.
We are all to be filled with Holy Spirit and receiving His guidance in all things.
Most who claim to be Christian hold to an outward form only.
His Own who are Holy Spirit filled are doing greater works than He, as He said they would in these last of the last days.
best wishes:)(y):unsure::coffee:
Not to critize your post, But isn't that like WWJD?
My answer to those back then was, "You can't do what Jesus did, UNLESS you first know what He did do."
Many are claimingto be "Spirit-filled" these days when they don't even know who the Holy Spirit is.:eek:o_O
 
Dec 16, 2016
14,766
8,408
113
#15
Not to critize your post, But isn't that like WWJD?
My answer to those back then was, "You can't do what Jesus did, UNLESS you first know what He did do."
Many are claimingto be "Spirit-filled" these days when they don't even know who the Holy Spirit is.:eek:o_O
I have seen that as well, in fact Jesus shares how we can do miracles in His name, via Holy Spirit of course, yet not know Him in the required one on one, personal, vital 24-7-365 relationship.
Constantine created the RCC blending Christian and pagan beliefs tell people they had to go through the RCC if they wanted to get to heaven. Not so, hence salvation became the goal when Jesus clearly said "It is finished", He did all that was needed for our salvation, none of our works will ever save us. After salvation we must walk out Holy Spirit direction.
best wishes
 
Jul 4, 2021
2,618
1,216
113
#17
. if you teach your people that the husband is solely responsible for the fate of his home, and that if he would just "lead" the wife will automatically fall into line and do her part? Is that Biblical teaching?
No. The man isn't solely responsibe; he's just mostly responsible... but I find the idea that a woman would "automatically" submit to her husband for ANY reason to be hilariously absurd. Why would anyone believe that?
 
May 11, 2022
266
88
28
#18
No. The man isn't solely responsibe; he's just mostly responsible... but I find the idea that a woman would "automatically" submit to her husband for ANY reason to be hilariously absurd. Why would anyone believe that?
Well I hope I've already made it clear that certainly agree with you on that, but I have heard several men teach it, not using those exact words, but definitely in principle.


"When the husband is the right kind of head, there is no problem with the wife being submissive"- Chuck Swindoll

"The reason she's a rebel, is she's following a rebel"- Tony Evans