Understanding God’s election

[Rufus]

How do you reconcile these?

That's simple! God's foreknowledge finds it ground in divine Prerogative, not Prescience. God will have mercy on whom he WILL have mercy, and He WILL have compassion on whom He wills! Rom 9 doesn't teach that God is merciful and compassionate to all men w/o exception.

Secondly, since all men (w/o exception) are sinners and by nature are objects of God's wrath, then what possibly could be the basis for God showing favoritism? What did Issac and Jacob have going for them that Ishmael and Esau didn't?

 

[Rufus]

Yeah the secret elect …..

Do not the things God has revealed belong to us, yet the secret things He has not revealed belong to Him alone (Deut 29:29)? It sounds like you have a severe case of deity envy!

 

[Hakawaka]

That's simple! God's foreknowledge finds it ground in divine Prerogative, not Prescience. God will have mercy on whom he WILL have mercy, and He WILL have compassion on whom He wills! Rom 9 doesn't teach that God is merciful and compassionate to all men w/o exception.

Secondly, since all men (w/o exception) are sinners and by nature are objects of God's wrath, then what possibly could be the basis for God showing favoritism? What did Issac and Jacob have going for them that Ishmael and Esau didn't?

You tell me, you are the one making the claim. Grace lottery?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

No, I lost interest because of your lack of understanding of Hebrews 10. It establishes the New Covenant - that it is THROUGH and BY Jesus Christ, not apart from, or a contradiction of Him - His sacrifice and offering is what brought it into existence. It interesting and scary though that you would attempt to refute it (and God's words) to diminish its power. I hope that it is just because of your lack understanding and wisdom regarding the purpose, power, significance and role of a covenant - that is the foundation of everything else.
I'm out.

“No, I lost interest because of your lack of understanding of Hebrews 10.”

ok I lost interest because you won’t accept what it says and need to explain it all away. But like you said it’s sort of reached a point where there’s no fruit to be had.

“Hebrews 10. It establishes the New Covenant - “

Naw Jesus words establish the covenant. Just as his word established the old covenant

Hebrews ten is quoting Jeremiah 31 which was a promise god made israel that he would make a new covenant and he did Jesus came and made it it’s called the gospel

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Do not the things God has revealed belong to us, yet the secret things He has not revealed belong to Him alone (Deut 29:29)? It sounds like you have a severe case of deity envy!

Naw I just believe what Gods word actually says over what you think some people can’t handle that the difference is i don’t have to hide from scripture like this

“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I agree and accept that to be true


I don’t have to hide from this

“This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭NIV‬‬

i accept it and believe it’s true

I don’t have to hide from this

“The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭NIV‬‬

the difference in you and I is I don’t have to hide from those plain things anyone can read and understand. Instead I seek out those tho gs I haven’t heard in the scriptire and then I think “ that’s definately true how does it reconcile ?”

My interest isn’t to argue with hypergracers about thoer odeas as tbey explain I just don’t know how interpret things like they do …things like this

“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.””

But instead of learning and believing what it says ….I need to let you explain why it doesn’t really say that but your always just explaining things backwards and opposite from what the apostles explain in thier letters your conclusions are always the opposite of thiers. I’m gonna go ahead and trust what the Bible says I wouldn’t part from Gods word for anything at this point

So I appreciate you trying to save me and teach me “the real truth “ but I’m gonna stick with Jesus and what he said regarding salvation


You still haven’t taken that hint though ?

 

[Rufus]

You tell me, you are the one making the claim. Grace lottery?

So, you have no idea either what the grounds for divine favoritism would be. You have a lot of company.

"Grace lottery"? How about divine prerogative? Does not the Potter have the right to make from one lump of bad clay (that is used for common or mundane purposes) a second lump that he'll fashion for noble use?

 

[Rufus]

Naw I just believe what Gods word actually says over what you think some people can’t handle that the difference is i don’t have to hide from scripture like this

“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I agree and accept that to be true


I don’t have to hide from this

“This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭NIV‬‬

i accept it and believe it’s true

I don’t have to hide from this

“The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭NIV‬‬

the difference in you and I is I don’t have to hide from those plain things anyone can read and understand. Instead I seek out those tho gs I haven’t heard in the scriptire and then I think “ that’s definately true how does it reconcile ?”

My interest isn’t to argue with hypergracers about thoer odeas as tbey explain I just don’t know how interpret things like they do …things like this

“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.””

But instead of learning and believing what it says ….I need to let you explain why it doesn’t really say that but your always just explaining things backwards and opposite from what the apostles explain in thier letters your conclusions are always the opposite of thiers. I’m gonna go ahead and trust what the Bible says I wouldn’t part from Gods word for anything at this point

So I appreciate you trying to save me and teach me “the real truth “ but I’m gonna stick with Jesus and what he said regarding salvation


You still haven’t taken that hint though ?

So Deut 29:29 isn't God's Word?

And you're still a lousy apologist for FWT! For example, who is the "you" in 2Pet 3:9?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

So Deut 29:29 isn't God's Word?

And you're still a lousy apologist for FWT! For example, who is the "you" in 2Pet 3:9?

The whole bible is Gods word. I don’t even know what fwt is .

“For example, who is the "you" in 2Pet 3:9?”
“This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: that ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:1-2, 8-9‬ ‭

seems rather obvious right ? Who would an apostle of Jesus be writing an epistle to ?

Same people paul was writing epistles to

“Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:15-16‬ ‭

Everyone is your answer it’s the same for everyone. He’s waiting for people to repent because it’s not his Will anyone perish but that we repent and live …..

“I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭5:32‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,

and repentance for the remission of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:46-47‬ ‭

“The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭NIV‬‬

True of everyone anyone willing to listen is who “ you “ is kind of the point paul and Peter make saying “ everyone’s going to face the same judgement god is no respector of men “

But of course this doesn’t register to you that God is going to treat everyone the same way that everyone’s going to be judged by the same judge and lord bu the same word. And that he’s told us all the same things same warnings same offer of blessing ….

sone people don’t want to hear what God has to say tbough many people in this world don’t want to hear it . It’s not because God made them incapable it’s because they’ve chosen to serve evil and don’t want to hear it they enjoy sin don’t wanna part with it

 

[Rufus]

The whole bible is Gods word. I don’t even know what fwt is .

“For example, who is the "you" in 2Pet 3:9?”
“This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: that ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:1-2, 8-9‬ ‭

seems rather obvious right ? Who would an apostle of Jesus be writing an epistle to ?

Same people paul was writing epistles to

“Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:15-16‬ ‭

Everyone is your answer it’s the same for everyone. He’s waiting for people to repent because it’s not his Will anyone perish but that we repent and live …..

“I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭5:32‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,

and repentance for the remission of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:46-47‬ ‭

“The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭NIV‬‬

True of everyone anyone willing to listen is who “ you “ is kind of the point paul and Peter make saying “ everyone’s going to face the same judgement god is no respector of men “

But of course this doesn’t register to you that God is going to treat everyone the same way that everyone’s going to be judged by the same judge and lord bu the same word. And that he’s told us all the same things same warnings same offer of blessing ….

sone people don’t want to hear what God has to say tbough many people in this world don’t want to hear it . It’s not because God made them incapable it’s because they’ve chosen to serve evil and don’t want to hear it they enjoy sin don’t wanna part with it

FWT = Free Will Theology.

Since you claim that Deut 29:29 is also God's Word, then why can't you just accept at face value what the passage says?

Re 2Pet 3:9: You write an awful lot to say that Peter is addressing... believers? His audience is God's elect? So...then since he was NOT writing to the world at large, then explain to me why would God be patient toward believers if he doesn't want any unsaved in the world to perish?

 

[DeepSeeker]

Yes, Jesus is the Son!
But the entire Bible shows He is God with many Names like the WORD in the Gospel of John 1:1.

Hi:
I would like to see those many names for God . Unless You are referring to Elohim, Jehovah, Son Of Man, etc. ?

 

[DeepSeeker]

"SON OF MAN STAND ON HOR FEET" I will send YOU to The House of Isreal."

Who stood up ?

DeepSeeker

 

[Pilgrimshope]

FWT = Free Will Theology.

Since you claim that Deut 29:29 is also God's Word, then why can't you just accept at face value what the passage says?

Re 2Pet 3:9: You write an awful lot to say that Peter is addressing... believers? His audience is God's elect? So...then since he was NOT writing to the world at large, then explain to me why would God be patient toward believers if he doesn't want any unsaved in the world to perish?

“Since you claim that Deut 29:29 is also God's Word, then why can't you just accept at face value what the passage says?”

i do Its totally ridiculous tbat your trying to say this verse from Moses law the old covenant made with Israel’s children we’ve never been a part of …

“These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.

…The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭29:1, 29‬ ‭

the issue is one verse theology you can’t understand anything by grabbing a verse out of context . What does that single verse have to do with anything I’ve said how does it change this is in any way ?

“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It doesn’t change or even relate to it at all in any way lol your really just wasting our time I’ll let you have the last word I honestly don’t have time to waste going in circles . Again your free to believe whatever you wish though I definitely respect a person right to choose between two bits of information

 

[fredoheaven]

Not possible. No one can do the will of the Father until He first places His laws into the hearts and minds of those under the New Covenant, as those verses tell us. Doing comes from that. There are no qualifications, requirements, nor conditions specified in those verses placed upon those chosen that they must first achieve - on the contrary, it was all achieved by Christ through the Father's exceedingly great mercy and grace.

We must first have His word abiding in us in order to truly believe, and that abiding comes from the New Covenant when God writes
His laws into our hearts and minds.

[Jhn 5:38 KJV] 38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

Umm, scripture says yes given in the context. Your opinion, its a no. Well, you have put another proof text that is out of context. John 5:38 are those Jews who reject v.24-25, He that hears Christ, those dead may hear his voice shall live.
Yes, i still believe the scripture of truth over opinions of men.

 

[rogerg]

Naw Jesus words establish the covenant. Just as his word established the old covenant

I didn't really want to reply but I couldn't leave your post hanging out there unrefuted.

No. Were it true that it was established by His words, then there would have been no need for Jesus's ministry, offering and sacrifice.
The Old Covenant was not brought into effect by words but by the blood of a lamb sprinkled upon the alter and upon the Jewish congregation when they agreed to its stipulations, the keeping of which, they failed at.
Neither was the New Covenant brought into effect by words but by the blood of the Lamb of God.

[Exo 24:6-8 KJV]
6 And Moses took half of the blood, and put [it] in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.
7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.
8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled [it] on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

[Heb 8:6-7 KJV]
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Hebrews ten is quoting Jeremiah 31 which was a promise god made israel that he would make a new covenant and he did Jesus came and made it it’s called the gospel

Hebrews identifies and explains the terms of the New Covenant that was brought into effect by Jesus. It applies
to both Jew and Gentile alike - but only those placed under it by God.

 

[cv5]

@LeadingReport
Jun 18
BREAKING: World’s highest IQ record holder, YoungHoon Kim, has announced that he believes Jesus Christ is God, the way and the truth and the life.

**********************************

Certainly smart enough to reject super-determinism.

 

[rogerg]

Umm, scripture says yes given in the context. Your opinion, its a no. Well, you have put another proof text that is out of context. John 5:38 are those Jews who reject v.24-25, He that hears Christ, those dead may hear his voice shall live.
Yes, i still believe the scripture of truth over opinions of men.

How is it out of context? If I understand you correctly, you have it reversed. They had to first have the word abiding within themselves in order to hear spiritually and truly believe, but it is God alone who places the word within someone as the terms of the New Covenant
informs us. Not sure that I really understand your point.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I didn't really want to reply but I couldn't leave your post hanging out there unrefuted.

No. Were it true that it was established by His words, then there would have been no need for Jesus's ministry, offering and sacrifice.
The Old Covenant was not brought into effect by words but by the blood of a lamb sprinkled upon the alter and upon the Jewish congregation when they agreed to its stipulations, the keeping of which, they failed at.
Neither was the New Covenant brought into effect by words but by the blood of the Lamb of God.

[Exo 24:6-8 KJV]
6 And Moses took half of the blood, and put [it] in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.
7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.
8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled [it] on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

[Heb 8:6-7 KJV]
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.



Hebrews identifies and explains the terms of the New Covenant that was brought into effect by Jesus. It applies
to both Jew and Gentile alike - but only those placed under it by God.

Pretty ridiculous stuff

 

[Rufus]

“Since you claim that Deut 29:29 is also God's Word, then why can't you just accept at face value what the passage says?”

i do Its totally ridiculous tbat your trying to say this verse from Moses law the old covenant made with Israel’s children we’ve never been a part of …

“These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.

…The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭29:1, 29‬ ‭

the issue is one verse theology you can’t understand anything by grabbing a verse out of context . What does that single verse have to do with anything I’ve said how does it change this is in any way ?

“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It doesn’t change or even relate to it at all in any way lol your really just wasting our time I’ll let you have the last word I honestly don’t have time to waste going in circles . Again your free to believe whatever you wish though I definitely respect a person right to choose between two bits of information

Hey...you have a bad memory on top of everything else? You're the one who mocked God with your "secret elect" snide remark. Yeah...God does not reveal all things to us and he never has and he never will on this side of eternity. Here's another piece of "one verse theology" that you can stuff in your hash pipe and puff on: Act 1:7. God has his secrets under the New Covenant, too. See how easy it was to graduate from "one verse theology" to two?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Hey...you have a bad memory on top of everything else? You're the one who mocked God with your "secret elect" snide remark. Yeah...God does not reveal all things to us and he never has and he never will on this side of eternity. Here's another piece of "one verse theology" that you can stuff in your hash pipe and puff on: Act 1:7. God has his secrets under the New Covenant, too. See how easy it was to graduate from "one verse theology" to two?

Do you ever get tired of just arguing at random with people who believe the Bible ?

 

[Rufus]

Pretty ridiculous stuff

Which coming from you isn't saying very much at all...