Understanding God’s election

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Oct 19, 2024
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Didn't catch it in time. They seem to be continually working through server issues or something and I'm hitting Post reply a few times thinking I'm missing it but the system is malfunctioning as I'm doing so. Thanks for the advice.
More like sympathy.
I guess you have noticed that I completed my systematic study of the DOE on the Hermeneutics thread
and am now applying the results (posted on our website <truthseekersfellowship.com>) to UGE and
other relevant threads. Others can feel free to use it as a reference also.
The Romans 1-11 study is in Lesson 10 and more is included in Part V of Lesson 2.
 

Inquisitor

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The concerns of those who accept TULIP—to affirm the sovereignty of God and the inability of souls to earn salvation—are valid, but the solutions are problematic, because they deny or ignore Scripture teaching the love of God for all sinners and the moral accountability of sinners for rejecting the love of God, thereby effectively perverting the Gospel (Gal. 5:6) and impugning God’s justness/righteousness (Psa. 33:5, Isa. 9:7).

The apparent reasons for these errors are threefold: 1. Ignorance of Scripture that contradicts their dogma, such as those teaching the possibility of apostasy, 2. Viewing faith as a meritorious work rather than as the non-meritorious condition of cooperating with God’s grace, and 3. Unconcern about portraying God as unjust by showing favoritism toward the elect. Once these errors are cured by including Scripture supporting MFW, doctrinal harmony is enhanced.
That is a valid summary of the problems with Calvinism.
 

Inquisitor

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So, Ishmael, Issac, Jacob, Esau and Pharaoh aren't individuals? You should take your own advice and learn how to read!

And more proof that your reading comp skills need improvement is based on your statement that I bolded in Red! The [whole] nation of Israel was NOT separated from Christ! Only the natural descendants of Abraham were; but not his children of promise. You're so blinded to the truth that you cannot see that there are two Israels spoken of in the passage. Issac and Jacob, being chosen children of promise, were most certainly included in the Abrahamic Covenant; whereas Ishmael and Esau were not!
I like talking to Calvinists they are feisty folk.

The whole nation of Israel were severed, that's a fact, Rufus.

Israel the nation, the covenant nation, was no longer the chosen nation; are you in denial of this?

Paul said the following.

Romans 9:1-5
For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren,
my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons,
and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever.

Is that first paragraph it states.

"my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons,
and the glory
"

Was the nation of Israel chosen in the first instance to be the sons, the glory, and the covenants?
 

Inquisitor

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If you notice it in time, you can delete with the message "duplicate".
At least that worked for me earlier.
(Am I telling YOU how to do something?! :^)
I have a similar problem to you GWH.

If my flat mate is on his play station then I can't post to CF, the post just hangs.

You can tell by looking at the top right of the screen, blue bars means you have not submitted the post.

No play station there is never a problem.
 

studier

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Election Scriptures:

The verb form used is: eklegomai (eklegō)

Occurrences in the BGT Manuscript (Combines the BNT - Novum Testamentum Graece, Nestle-Aland 28th Edition. Copyright (c) 2014 Deutsch Bibelgesellschaft, Stuttgart and the LXT - LXX Septuaginta (Old Greek Jewish Scriptures) edited by Alfred Rahlfs. Copyright © 1935 by the Württembergische Bibelanstalt / Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft (German Bible Society), Stuttgart.)
  • 148x (126 OC; 22 NC)
Definition from BDAG Lexicon (just the main points):
1. to pick out someone or something, choose (for oneself)
2. to make a choice in accordance with significant preference, select someone/something for oneself,
3. gather in a crop, gather

Summary of the NC Scriptures (I'm including the choices made by NC people which I did not do in the OC Summary due to the number of verses involved):
  • God Chose:
    • The Lord chose the elect men Mark13:20 (statement in context of eschatological judgment)
    • Jesus chose 12 Apostles (Including Judas) Luke6:13; John6:70; John15:16 (and His Apostles did not choose Jesus) (Jesus chose and placed them to bear lasting fruit in ministry); John15:19 (Jesus chose them from the kosmos)
      • Jesus later excluded Judas John13:18; Acts1:2
    • Jesus is God’s Son, God’s Chosen Luke9:35 (this is not in all manuscripts and is a substantival participle, so the search of the verb is picking it up)
    • God chose the fathers of the nation Israel Acts13:7
    • Peter says God chose him to [first] proclaim the Gospel for the Gentiles to hear and believe Acts15:7
    • God chose the foolish and weak things of the kosmos to shame the wise men and the strong things, and God chose the insignificant things, despised things, the things not existing to abolish the existing things 1Cor1:27-28 (context of God's choosing is the things of the Gospel and the type of people who believe)
    • Before the founding/beginning of the kosmos, God chose [men] in Christ to be holy and blameless in His presence Eph1:4
    • God chose poor men of the kosmos, rich in faith men and heirs of the kingdom He promised to men who love Him James2:5
  • Christians Chose:
    • Mary chose the good portion/share Luke10:42
    • Men chose the best seats at a wedding feast per Jesus’ parable Luke14:7
    • Believers pray for the Lord to show whom He chose to replace Judas Acts1:24
    • Many disciples chose 7 from among them to serve Acts6:5
    • The Apostles and Elders in Jerusalem chose men to send to Antioch Acts15:22; Acts15:25
 

studier

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Although there are many verses to look at with noun forms of words from the verb eklegō, it strikes me how there is so much argument based upon so little Scripture having to do with God choosing much that pertains to all the argument.
 

studier

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Fixed a verse reference Acts13:7 s/b Acts13:17

Summary of NC Occurrences:
  • God Chose:
    • The Lord chose the elect men Mark13:20 (statement in context of eschatological judgment)
    • Jesus chose 12 Apostles (including Judas) Luke6:13; John6:70; John15:16 (and His Apostles did not choose Jesus) (Jesus chose and placed them to bear lasting fruit in ministry); John15:19 (Jesus chose them from the kosmos)
    • Jesus later excluded Judas John13:18; Acts1:2
    • Jesus is God’s Son, God’s Chosen Luke9:35 (this is not in all manuscripts and is a substantival participle, so the search of the verb is picking it up)
    • God chose the fathers of the nation Israel Acts13:17
    • Peter says God chose him to [first] proclaim the Gospel for the Gentiles to hear and believe Acts15:7
    • God chose the foolish and weak things of the kosmos to shame the wise men and the strong things, and God chose the insignificant things, despised things, the things not existing to abolish the existing things 1Cor1:27-28 (context of God's choosing is the things of the Gospel and the type of people who believe)
    • Before the founding/beginning of the kosmos, God chose [men] in Christ to be holy and blameless in His presence Eph1:4
    • God chose poor men of the kosmos, rich in faith men and heirs of the kingdom He promised to men who love Him James2:5
  • Christians Chose:
    • Mary chose the good portion/share Luke10:42
    • Men chose the best seats at a wedding feast per Jesus’ parable Luke14:7
    • Believers pray for the Lord to show whom He chose to replace Judas Acts1:24
    • Many disciples chose 7 from among them to serve Acts6:5
    • The Apostles and Elders in Jerusalem chose men to send to Antioch Acts15:22; Acts15:25
 

Rufus

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I like talking to Calvinists they are feisty folk.

The whole nation of Israel were severed, that's a fact, Rufus.

Israel the nation, the covenant nation, was no longer the chosen nation; are you in denial of this?

Paul said the following.

Romans 9:1-5
For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren,
my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons,
and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever.

Is that first paragraph it states.

"my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons,
and the glory
"

Was the nation of Israel chosen in the first instance to be the sons, the glory, and the covenants?
You still don't read too swell! ALL Israelites were not severed! Read Rom 11:5! And that's a fact!

However, I do agree that ethnic Israel is no longer God's covenant nation! However, God's elect Jewish remnant, under this New Covenant economy, is still in covenant relationship with God, along with all the elect Gentiles; for both are the Israel of God.
 
Jul 3, 2015
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"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." John 6 verse 44 The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2 verse 14 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Romans 8 verse 7-8
 
Oct 19, 2024
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"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." John 6 verse 44 The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2 verse 14 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Romans 8 verse 7-8
Yes, and Paul teaches that God draws or leads all to Him, but ungodly men resist:

1. Romans 1:16 says the Gospel reveals that (s/e) is for “everyone who believes”, both Jew and Gentile.

2. Romans 1:17 describes s/e as “righteousness from God” that is by faith “from first to last” or from creation until the end.

3. Romans 2:4 teaches that God’s kindness or patience with sinners is meant to lead them toward repentance, which implies that sinners are able to repent because of God’s leading.

4. Romans 2:5 warns that those who do not repent but instead stubbornly resist God’s leading are storing up wrath against themselves for the day when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed, which implies that God enables sinners to repent–or not (cf. Deut. 30:19).

5. Romans 2:6 affirms what is called karma by saying that “God will give to each person according to what he has done”, which (in Gal. 6:7-9) is called reaping what a person sows.

6. Romans 2:7 speaks of the need for “persistence in doing good” and seeking glory, honor and immortality in order to receive s/e or eternal life, which echoes what Jesus commanded (in Matt. 7:7) and connects with the doctrine of perseverance (cf. Heb. 10:36 & Jam. 1:3-4).

7. Romans 2:11 teaches that “God does not show favoritism” (cf. Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17), which is how God judges people justly, so the fact that some sinners ignore God’s Gospel indicates that His will or leading is resistible because of MFW.

8. Romans 2:15 teaches that sinful souls have a conscience or awareness of “the requirements of the law”, which may be combined with Romans 1:20 to teach that God’s power and moral nature or will may be perceived via creation and conscience (called natural revelation), thus those unfamiliar with God’s Word in Scripture have no good reason for resisting divine leading and choosing atheism/evil.

9. Romans 3:20-21 states the law makes souls conscious of sin and that “the Law and Prophets testify” or prepare the way for the new revelation of righteousness from God apart from the Law, which takes up where Romans 1:17 left off.

10. Romans 3:22a says that “righteousness from God” or s/e comes through faith “in Jesus Christ” (cf. Eph. 2:8), a phrase Paul used eleven times in Ephesians 1:3-14 to indicate s/e.

11. Romans 3:22b says that God’s righteousness is given “to all who believe—there is no difference”” signifying that all sinners may believe or be s/e (cf. 1Tim. 2:3-4, John 3:16, Tit. 2:11), because there is no favoritism (#7).

12. Romans 3:23 teaches that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”, meaning that no one can be good enough to earn salvation because of their own merit.

13. Romans 3:24 says sinners “are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus” (via faith per v.22, cf. 3:27-28); s/e is free because Christ paid the price/cost.

14. Romans 3:25a explains redemption as being “a sacrifice of atonement” for those who have faith in Christ’s work of dying in their place.

15. Romans 3:25b further explains that God demonstrated his just patience (#3) or forbearance in leaving unpunished those sins committed before the revealing of the Gospel (foreshadowed in Gen. 22:8 & 13), implying that sinners had/have the opportunity to believe and be s/e thereby demonstrating God’s justice/not showing favoritism (#11).

16. Romans 3:26 continues to emphasize divine justice by declaring it three ways (“justice…, just…, justifies”), which justness is synonymous with righteousness (2Thes. 1:5-6, Heb. 6:10).

17. Romans 4:1-25 presents Abraham as a Gentile who became the physical father of the Jews and the spiritual father of all who choose to have faith in God/Christ.

18. Romans 5:1 echoes Eph. 2:8 by describing s/e as justification through faith, Eph. 1:5 & 7 by using the phrase “through Jesus Christ”, and Eph. 2:14 by describing s/e as having peace with God.
 

Rufus

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I like talking to Calvinists they are feisty folk.

The whole nation of Israel were severed, that's a fact, Rufus.

Israel the nation, the covenant nation, was no longer the chosen nation; are you in denial of this?
Are you in denial of the fact that there were TWO kinds of Jews within the nation of Israel, and that only the children of promise were the true covenant people of God? And this fact accounts for why God's Word did not fail (Rom 9:6)!
 

Rufus

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Yes, and Paul teaches that God draws or leads all to Him, but ungodly men resist:


More lies! There is no text in scripture that explicitly teaches that God draws or leads all w/o exception to Christ. In fact, if this were true, then all men w/o exception are indeed saved per Jn 17:2!
 

Rufus

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The natural man resists.
What FWers conveniently overlook is the REASON why the "natural" or "ungodly" man resist. They resist because God has not done a work in their depraved, evil, reprobate hearts.

Acts 7:51
51 "You stiff-necked people,
with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!
NIV

And circumcision by divine hands is strictly a work of God unilaterally promised under the New Covenant. It's no wonder at all that Stephen's detractors were just like their apostate forefathers!
 
Jul 3, 2015
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What FWers conveniently overlook is the REASON why the "natural" or "ungodly" man resist.
They resist because God has not done a work in their depraved, evil, reprobate hearts.
Yeah, the common quip is that the natural man has everyone he needs already... which is not what Scripture teaches.

They also claim everyone hears. Eh. Jesus said otherwise. So much for believing what Scripture explicitly states.


from Revelation 3 verse 17-18 ~ You say, ‘I need nothing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, white garments so that you may be clothed and your shameful nakedness not exposed, and salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
 
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Acts 7:51
51 "You stiff-necked people,
with uncircumcised hearts and ears!
You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! NIV

And circumcision by divine hands is strictly a work of God unilaterally promised under the New Covenant.
It's no wonder at all that Stephen's detractors were just like their apostate forefathers!

Philippians 3 verse 3; Colossians 2 verse 11; Romans 2 verse 29b ~ For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh. You were also circumcised, in the putting off of your sinful nature, with the circumcision performed by Christ and not by human hands. Circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code.
 

studier

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Election Scriptures:

The adjective used is eklektos (adjective)

Occurrences in the BGT Manuscript (Combines the BNT - Novum Testamentum Graece, Nestle-Aland 28th Edition. Copyright (c) 2014 Deutsch Bibelgesellschaft, Stuttgart and the LXT - LXX Septuaginta (Old Greek Jewish Scriptures) edited by Alfred Rahlfs. Copyright © 1935 by the Württembergische Bibelanstalt / Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft (German Bible Society), Stuttgart.)
  • 105x (83 OC; 22 NC)
Definition from BDAG Lexicon (just the main points):
1. pert. to being selected, chosen
2. pert. to being esp. distinguished, elect
3. pert. to being considered best in the course of a selection, choice, excellent

For purposes of this thread, let's get this one out of the way quickly with apologies to the original:
Rom 16:13 NKJ) Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.​
Summary of the NC Scriptures:
  • Jesus is the Messiah - God’s chosen man identified in the OC Scriptures Luke23:35; 1Pet2:4; 1Pet2:6
  • There are chosen angels 1Tim5:21
  • God has chosen men
    • They are Christians Col3:12
    • Per Jesus’ kingdom parable, they wear the proper wedding clothing at the Son’s wedding Matt22:14
    • The time of eschatological suffering is shortened to save them Matt24:22; Mark13:20
    • Jesus warned them that false messiahs and false prophets may deceive them during the time of eschatological suffering Matt24:24; Mark13:22
    • Upon His return Jesus sends His angels to gather them together Matt24:31; Mark13:27
    • God will bring about justice for them Luke18:7
    • They are justified and nobody can bring charges against them Rom8:33
    • They endure and remain faithful to experience salvation in Christ Jesus with eternal glory 2Tim2:10
    • The faith – the experiential knowledge of godliness – for hope of eternal life promised by God – is theirs Titus1:1
    • Some were chosen exiles pursuant to God’s foreknowledge to proclaim God’s virtues 1Pet1:1; 1Pet2:9
    • They assemble in local ekklesias 2John1:13
    • They are called men / chosen men / faithful men Rev17:14
Observations:
  1. The fact that God has chosen men is here
  2. Though we're told things about them, we're not told much if anything about God choosing them
    1. Rom8:33 does identify God's chosen as the ones God justified
 
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Romans 8 verse 29-30; Ephesians 1 verse 5 ~ Those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will.