Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[LifelongLearner]

Biblically, "to will" is "to want or desire something". No one can stop me "wanting/willing" what "I want/will".

Well, what goes on in your mind is pretty free, it's twixt you and the LORD only unless you will otherwise. However, enacting your will freely requires unilateral action, which is usually only possible if it doesn't impact other people negatively. Even tyrants can't impose free will unilaterally in such circumstances, they need enablers to make their tyranny possible.

It's obvious we don't have free will, however, it won't stop your sort trying to shift the goalposts.

 

[GWH]

Well, what goes on in your mind is pretty free, it's twixt you and the LORD only unless you will otherwise. However, enacting your will freely requires unilateral action, which is usually only possible if it doesn't impact other people negatively. Even tyrants can't impose free will unilaterally in such circumstances, they need enablers to make their tyranny possible.

It's obvious we don't have free will, however, it won't stop your sort trying to shift the goalposts.

Well, it's not obvious that God made you post that.

 

[LifelongLearner]

Well, it's not obvious that God made you post that.

You seemingly have misinterpreted my comment, very difficult to see any relationship to it in your reply. We're sharing a courteous dialogue on another post, so will give you a little while to better explain what you mean.

Can't believe i've been able to post so many comments here today, won't hold my breath and hope i haven't put the kibosh on things going well on CC today.

 

[Genez]

As Jesus said, "According to your faith be it done unto you." If you believe you have no free will, you get what you believe. Others who believe they have free will get what they believe." What would you prefer to have, @LifelongLearner ?

The more accurate understanding of the Scriptures you possess, the more freedom of will you will possess.
For God's Spirit will be providing the grace power to have it manifested, or come to be.

So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed."

John 8:36​

Why the Son sets you free?

John 1:1! He is the Word! Having an ACCURATE and True understanding of the Word makes your will to be free.
Many depend upon translations that lack the exacting nature of the Greek text. Accuracy is a must!

God has provided for He has esteemed His Word above all else! https://www.rbthieme.org/index.html


Grace and truth!

 

[GWH]

You seemingly have misinterpreted my comment, very difficult to see any relationship to it in your reply. We're sharing a courteous dialogue on another post, so will give you a little while to better explain what you mean.

Can't believe i've been able to post so many comments here today, won't hold my breath and hope i haven't put the kibosh on things going well on CC today.

Sorry that I misunderstood you.

I was posting too fast on CC this morning myself!

 

[PaulThomson]

Well, what goes on in your mind is pretty free, it's twixt you and the LORD only unless you will otherwise. However, enacting your will freely requires unilateral action, which is usually only possible if it doesn't impact other people negatively. Even tyrants can't impose free will unilaterally in such circumstances, they need enablers to make their tyranny possible.

It's obvious we don't have free will, however, it won't stop your sort trying to shift the goalposts.

We certainly don't have free will as you define it. But your definition isn't in line with how the Bible uses the words for will: thelO (to will) and thelEma (a will).

 

[LifelongLearner]

My definition of free will is a very logical one and you are wrong to say the Bible doesn't support my view. You also conflate will and free will, most people do, we have will and can make choices for sure, which i have stated many times throughout my post.

However, unless it's something which has little impact on others, we can't enact our will without the cooperation/compliance of others. Free will involves having full control of ALL outcomes unilaterally, last time i checked, only the Big Guy upstairs can do that. Free will is the cherry on top and his privilege, blessing us with choice and will was beyond generous of him. However, we can only enact/exercise them freely if they don't negatively affect others, as they have will too.

Adam and Eve are a great example of having will which isn't free, have mentioned it in an earlier comment. They had will and made their choice, however, instead of making them Gods, it got them booted out of Eden and they started dying. They had will but no control over the outcome, it's an excellent example of our will not being free.

 

[LifelongLearner]

Sorry that I misunderstood you.

I was posting too fast on CC this morning myself!

No worries Mister, know what you mean, i went for posting a good few comments while the sun shone yesterday. Looking pretty good so far today too, don't have much time now tho.

 

[LifelongLearner]

We certainly don't have free will as you define it. But your definition isn't in line with how the Bible uses the words for will: thelO (to will) and thelEma (a will).

Oops, posted my first reply as a straight comment, know i have to dot all is and cross all ts for you lot, so a repost as a reply now.

My definition of free will is a very logical one and you are wrong to say the Bible doesn't support my view. You also conflate will and free will, most people do, we have will and can make choices for sure, which i have stated many times throughout my post.

However, unless it's something which has little impact on others, we can't enact our will without the cooperation/compliance of others. Free will involves having full control of ALL outcomes unilaterally, last time i checked, only the Big Guy upstairs can do that. Free will is the cherry on top and his privilege, blessing us with choice and will was beyond generous of him. However, we can only enact/exercise them freely if they don't negatively affect others, as they have will too.

Adam and Eve are a great example of having will which isn't free, have mentioned it in an earlier comment. They had will and made their choice, however, instead of making them Gods, it got them booted out of Eden and they started dying. They had will but no control over the outcome, it's an excellent example of our will not being free.

 

[GWH]

My definition of free will is a very logical one and you are wrong to say the Bible doesn't support my view. You also conflate will and free will, most people do, we have will and can make choices for sure, which i have stated many times throughout my post.

However, unless it's something which has little impact on others, we can't enact our will without the cooperation/compliance of others. Free will involves having full control of ALL outcomes unilaterally, last time i checked, only the Big Guy upstairs can do that. Free will is the cherry on top and his privilege, blessing us with choice and will was beyond generous of him. However, we can only enact/exercise them freely if they don't negatively affect others, as they have will too.

Adam and Eve are a great example of having will which isn't free, have mentioned it in an earlier comment. They had will and made their choice, however, instead of making them Gods, it got them booted out of Eden and they started dying. They had will but no control over the outcome, it's an excellent example of our will not being free.

Only God has absolute free will, but He created humanity in His image or having moral free will,
which A&E exemplify exercising MFW wrongly, as do everyone else descended from them.
What makes FW M is the fact that the result of choosing wrongly is qualitatively opposite
from choosing rightly, which ultimately are called hell and heaven (cf. Deut. 30:19).

 

[LifelongLearner]

Only God has absolute free will, but He created humanity in His image or having moral free will,
which A&E exemplify exercising MFW wrongly, as do everyone else descended from them.
What makes FW M is the fact that the result of choosing wrongly is qualitatively opposite
from choosing rightly, which ultimately are called hell and heaven (cf. Deut. 30:19).

Then people should define it as moral free will, it isn't free will per se which is what most clearly mean in my post. Sorry to say it looks like you're trying to shift the goalposts, moral free will is a given, even babies clearly show it, they can discern things like unfairness etc.

Nah! You ain't getting away with that one Mister, you're shifting the goalposts as my definition of free will is well evidenced Checking what time to have my bath, which is ruined if i take one while it's really humid. Can't stand not feeling clean and refreshed after bathing

 

[Magenta]

Biblically, "to will" is "to want or desire something". No one can stop me "wanting/willing" what "I want/will".

The natural man does not want God. That is the issue. Many free willers claim the person who is a slave to sin and lover of darkness, defined as darkness itself, inherently hostile in his mind toward God and suppressing the truth in unrighteousness while he can neither receive nor comprehend the spiritual things of God, and refusing to come into the light, can and will decide/choose to believe that which is foolishness to him. That person is under the power and influence of the wicked one who has blinded them to truth. Put forward is the assertion that the natural man is not such a bad guy despite Scripture proclaiming none good and the heart of the natural man wicked and so incurably so that it needs replacing. Since it is with the heart that one believes, this incurably wicked heart is not good ground for receiving the seed of God's Word, and is therefore incapable of bringing forth the good fruit of faith. Free willers vehemently disagree. They ascribe to the natural man qualities, characteristics, and capabilities that only the spiritual man possesses.

Pelagian heretics insist man is inherently good. From within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. Mark 7:21-22 Every inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Genesis 8:21b Who can bring out clean from unclean? No one! Job 14:4 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7:18

 

[cv5]

Many have probably realised i don't think we can exercise free will, even think it's impossible for us to. Won't explain why i think it's an impossiblility for us yet, think it's useful for some to express why they think it exists first.

I have no doubt we have and can make choices throughout life, however, think our options are far more restricted than most realise. What do you think?

Your dog and cat exercise free will. So do your kids.

 

[Cameron143]

Your dog and cat exercise free will. So do your kids.

My dogs never make a choice to attend a worship service.

 

[GWH]

Then people should define it as moral free will, it isn't free will per se which is what most clearly mean in my post. Sorry to say it looks like you're trying to shift the goalposts, moral free will is a given, even babies clearly show it, they can discern things like unfairness etc.

Nah! You ain't getting away with that one Mister, you're shifting the goalposts as my definition of free will is well evidenced Checking what time to have my bath, which is ruined if i take one while it's really humid. Can't stand not feeling clean and refreshed after bathing

The only type of FW important in the Bible and for discussions of GW such as on CC is MFW,
so you were correct to say that people should define it that way when discussing salvation.