Understanding God’s election

[rogerg]

2 Timothy 1 verse 9~ He has saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works, but by His own purpose and by the grace He granted us in Christ Jesus before time began. Ephesians 1 verses 4-5~ He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will. Ephesians 1 verse 11~ In Him we were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will.

Sorry to keep giving you so many "winner", Magenta, but I just can't help myself - you keep nailing it.

 

[Magenta]

Sorry to keep giving you so many "winner", Magenta, but I just can't help myself - you keep nailing it.

To the glory of God and the praise of His glory, thank you, Roger!

Romans 8 verse 29-30; Ephesians 1 verse 5 ~ Those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will.

 

[Rufus]

The "those in Christ":

[1Co 30 KJV)
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:




The "what was predestinated":

[Eph 1:5 KJV] 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
[Eph 1:5 NIV] 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--
[Eph 1:5 ESV] 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

This cannot possibly be! Ain't "us" a personal pronoun? Even if it is, this is a very easy fix for GWH. He turns a personal pronoun into an impersonal one -- and voila! The problem magically disappears. This is what FWers do to Rom 8:29. They turn "those" or "whom" in this verse into "what" -- an inanimate, impersonal thing!

 

[Rufus]

Yes, and the thing is called God's will, purpose and plan in v. 9 & 11.

All of which are not contingent on THINGS he foresees the objects of grace doing!

 

[Inquisitor]

So...things are predestined but not people themselves?

In Romans there are two groups, that is, Israel and the Gentiles.

The nation of Israel was hardened, severed from Christ.

Paul is not talking about individuals in the letter to the Romans.

The Gentiles are grafted into Christ in Romans.

Paul never refers to individuals except for example, Jacob and Esau. Which the text tells us, "the older will
serve the younger". This is not talking about individual election.

Christ was predestined and justification by faith in Christ was also predestined.

The concept of individual election in Romans is absent.

 

[Inquisitor]

No, I attend a church that consists mostly of lIKE-MINDED brothers and sisters who love God's Truth. My bible tells me that if you have the love of God in your soul, that love will rejoice in the truth. Rather, you rail against it. You fight against it. You oppose it! you deny it! You cannot even accept what is explictly written in scripture! Your only interest, so it seems, is to twist God's Word to fit into your personal, pet theological presuppositions.

Romans 9-11, is nothing more than the narration of the failure of Israel, end of story.

You need to bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit, Rufus, and avoid defending an unsound interpretation.

 

[Rufus]

In Romans there are two groups, that is, Israel and the Gentiles.

The nation of Israel was hardened, severed from Christ.

Paul is not talking about individuals in the letter to the Romans.

The Gentiles are grafted into Christ in Romans.

Paul never refers to individuals except for example, Jacob and Esau. Which the text tells us, "the older will
serve the younger". This is not talking about individual election.

Christ was predestined and justification by faith in Christ was also predestined.

The concept of individual election in Romans is absent.

First of all, you omit 3 other individuals. What happened to Ishmael, Issac and Pharaoh?

Also, how we can know for certain that Paul clearly had individuals in mind is by his division of two kinds of Abrhamic descendants: One group of descendants were related to Abraham only by natural descent; whereas the other group of individual Jews were related to Abraham by virtue of God's promise, being called "children of promise"! The former group were not God's children, whereas the latter were! This means that Ishmael and Esau were excluded from the Abrahamic Covenant, since they were not the true Israel.

 

[Rufus]

Romans 9-11, is nothing more than the narration of the failure of Israel, end of story.

You need to bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit, Rufus, and avoid defending an unsound interpretation.

IOW, you cannot believe your lying eyes and how Rom 9:6 reads which is about why God's Word has not failed. There's nothing about Israel's failure in the verse, since at the end of the day, man's eternal destiny is in God's hands, which Paul clearly understood. Don't you know, yet, that man's ways are NOT in himself!?