Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[cv5]

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, according to your "logical" definition of free will, it seems one cannot freely will to drive a vehicle into a crowd of people maiming and killing many and negatively affecting the lives of many more unless they cooperate with the driver. Same could be said about use of a gun since we have so many examples of both these days.

Part of the issue about this topic of debate is this philosophical reasoning about what "free" includes which runs into the realm of absurdity and seems pointless for a discussion of Biblical things. Why enter into Greek philosophy?

For example, we know God created in kinds. We're not birds. We're not free to fly like birds. What's the point of discussing freedom to such an absurd degree? We're constrained by creation and decree. Within those limitations is there freedom, at least enough to have a discussion about that freedom apart from logical absurdity?

God is Creator, He can and does "reverse entropy" in astounding fashion and capacity as seen in the "re-creation" of Gen 1.
Man and man alone has the innate ability to likewise "create order from disorder" in very meaningful and significant ways due to the fact that he is created in God's image and likeness.
Thus the command to keep the garden.

What is the key requirement to "reverse entropy"? Free will.
Adam has it and we have it. The Scripture is staggeringly voluminous in declaring this fact.

[Gen 1:26 KJV]
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

[Gen 1:27 KJV]
So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The super-determinists are super-ignorant of these crucial and salient matters that the Bible underscores time and time again.

 

[LifelongLearner]

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, according to your "logical" definition of free will, it seems one cannot freely will to drive a vehicle into a crowd of people maiming and killing many and negatively affecting the lives of many more unless they cooperate with the driver. Same could be said about use of a gun since we have so many examples of both these days.

Part of the issue about this topic of debate is this philosophical reasoning about what "free" includes which runs into the realm of absurdity and seems pointless for a discussion of Biblical things. Why enter into Greek philosophy?

For example, we know God created in kinds. We're not birds. We're not free to fly like birds. What's the point of discussing freedom to such an absurd degree? We're constrained by creation and decree. Within those limitations is there freedom, at least enough to have a discussion about that freedom apart from logical absurdity?

You are misunderstanding me, are you telling me somebody who could do something that horrific, is in a normal state of mind, let alone a rational one? Freak events like that have and will always occur, they stand out because they're rare, horrific events. Also, look at the times we live in, over the past five years the world has become an increasingly frightened, frightening and angry place. So many people are losing their very humanity, your comment isn't well thought out.

Afraid to say you do seem to be one of those who have ganged up throughout this post of mine, to derail discussion and conceal my rational comments. I could copy and paste a few into one comment and paste it at the top of every 2 or 3 pages, that would have some equivalence to what has been done to my comments. However, i'd be doing it to level the playing field, not bully others.

 

[LifelongLearner]

So, in just a few posts, I'm reading self-assertion of being logical, one of the most reasonably, judging another as being "rather weaselly in favor of another you find not weaselly.

Any room for improvement?

Yes dear, they're all traits i'm well known for, i don't think that likely of you.

Edit: Ooh! Apart from the weaselly one!

 

[cv5]

You are misunderstanding me, are you telling me somebody who could do something that horrific, is in a normal state of mind, let alone a rational one? Freak events like that have and will always occur, they stand out because they're rare, horrific events. Also, look at the times we live in, over the past five years the world has become an increasingly frightened, frightening and angry place. So many people are losing their very humanity, your comment isn't well thought out.

Afraid to say you do seem to be one of those who have ganged up throughout this post of mine, to derail discussion and conceal my rational comments. I could copy and paste a few into one comment and paste it at the top of every 2 or 3 pages, that would have some equivalence to what has been done to my comments. However, i'd be doing it to level the playing field, not bully others.

Since when is the sinking of the Bismark or the A-bombs that were detonated on Japan freak events?
On the contrary, it was planned and determined long before it ever happened.

By men with free will no doubt.

 

[LifelongLearner]

Since when is the sinking of the Bismark or the A-bombs that were detonated on Japan freak events?
On the contrary, it was planned and determined long before it ever happened.

By men with free will no doubt.

Think you might be sincere, you do choose some scriptures which resonate with me for sure.

Those events were among the many deliberate, evil atrocities, which i think are tools of the non-human evil i think is really in control on earth. i do believe the world genuinely lies in the power of Satan currently.

 

[studier]

God is Creator, He can and does "reverse entropy" in astounding fashion and capacity as seen in the "re-creation" of Gen 1.
Man and man alone has the innate ability to likewise "create order from disorder" in very meaningful and significant ways due to the fact that he is created in God's image and likeness.

This is one of the keys to the absurdity of that errant tradition. One of its learned adherents wrote a pretty detailed article talking about problems within the group. One of the issues he pointed out was how a sect of the group was overly or errantly focused on the "nothingness of man".

This corpse analogy they have in the "T" is absurd and absolutely negates any semblance of retention of being created in His image and likeness and retaining sufficient capacities to interact with and respond to the power of His Word and Grace, let alone the power of His Law at work in the conscience of men and the questions that arise in a functioning mind concerning there being something more than we see and there having to be something more and better than this.

 

[Genez]

No! They definitely want to exercise their will at times, which they can if it doesn't impact others too much. Hence why will exists for sure but isn't free in created beings, to be free, one must always be capable of enacting will unilaterally.

As i have said many times on my post, the only being who has that unilateral power, is the Big Guy upstairs. We are really scratch each others backists, we need to compromise as well to have a decent life.

We have the freedom granted to us by God to use our will.
Only when our wills are guided by sound doctrinal thinking will we find for ourselves freedom secured.

That is why Jesus said...

“If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, ​

and the truth will set you free.” John 8:32​

You want to have free will?
Your will be done?
Make sure then that you seek out sound doctrine till you find it, and learn it.
Then walk in it as you breathe it.

 

[studier]

You are misunderstanding me, are you telling me somebody who could do something that horrific, is in a normal state of mind, let alone a rational one?

I'll take this as rhetorical.

Freak events like that have and will always occur, they stand out because they're rare, horrific events. Also, look at the times we live in, over the past five years the world has become an increasingly frightened, frightening and angry place. So many people are losing their very humanity, your comment isn't well thought out.

My comment is well thought out and not that deep because it didn't take much thought to see the gaping hole in what you said. One of the questions about free will (I'm going to use "free" within the Biblical constraints I previously mentioned) is whether or not it exists. Yes, it does exist, and it is displayed in such horrific events which shatter the "logic" of your definition re: cooperation.

Afraid to say you do seem to be one of those who have ganged up throughout this post of mine, to derail discussion and conceal my rational comments. I could copy and paste a few into one comment and paste it at the top of every 2 or 3 pages, that would have some equivalence to what has been done to my comments. However, i'd be doing it to level the playing field, not bully others.

It seems you consider disagreement as derailing and bullying.

Maybe your comments are not as rational or logical as you think they and you are. Maybe you should consider disagreement with your opinions as just that rather than as derailing and bullying.

 

[Genez]

Having no human spirit? Regeneration does not give the natural man a human spirit... it is a
spiritual transformation that gives the natural man a new spiritual life and a new nature in Christ.

And it is exactly that the natural man does not want God. The natural
man is inherently opposed to God, hostile in his mind toward him...
a lover of darkness refusing to come into the light.
It is what the Bible teaches, despite what you claim.

​

Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. " John 3:6​

The indwelling Holy Spirit is not the Holy Spirit giving birth to itself.
He just simply enters a body.
Not to be confused with the Holy Spirit begetting the human spirit.

"Spirit gives birth to spirit. "​

​

We become body, soul, and human spirit when regenerated.

​

May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. ​

May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming ​

of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23​

​

The Holy Spirit (being God) does not need to be kept blameless.
So 1 Thessalonians 5:23 can not refer to the Holy Spirit being kept blameless.

It is our human spirit that needs to be kept blameless.

False doctrine contaminates the human spirit.

 

[LifelongLearner]

Think, hope, you're probably not a more intelligent than most on this thread troll, however, you've leapt to conclusions on the basis of cursory evidence.

It's merely been since June 20th i've started calling them out, previously i reasoned with them and hoped for some decency from people who profess to be Christian. Which never materialised so i now call them out and will continue to do so. They can always take their pot and wooden spoons elsewhere if they can't handle grief in return, this is my post.

 

[Genez]

Do you think having "no human spirit" is the same as having a dead human spirit?

Having no human spirit means a person is spiritually dead.
They are physically alive, but spiritually dead.

That is why Jesus called the unbelievers "dead."


In Matthew 8:22 and Luke 9:60, a man asked Jesus if he can first go bury his father before following him.

Jesus response?

"Let the dead bury their own dead". ​

No regeneration = no human spirit given.

 

[studier]

Think, hope, you're probably not a more intelligent than most on this thread troll, however, you've leapt to conclusions on the basis of cursory evidence.

It's merely been since June 20th i've started calling them out, previously i reasoned with them and hoped for some decency from people who profess to be Christian. Which never materialised so i now call them out and will continue to do so. They can always take their pot and wooden spoons elsewhere if they can't handle grief in return, this is my post.

Now I remember you. Those who disagree with you are trolls (along with bullies and derailers). Thanks for reminding me.

 

[LifelongLearner]

I'll take this as rhetorical.



My comment is well thought out and not that deep because it didn't take much thought to see the gaping hole in what you said. One of the questions about free will (I'm going to use "free" within the Biblical constraints I previously mentioned) is whether or not it exists. Yes, it does exist, and it is displayed in such horrific events which shatter the "logic" of your definition re: cooperation.



It seems you consider disagreement as derailing and bullying.

Maybe your comments are not as rational or logical as you think they and you are. Maybe you should consider disagreement with your opinions as just that rather than as derailing and bullying.

I enjoy discussion with people of other opinions, good chance one or more of us might learn something worthwhile. You are being judgemental about something you have very little understanding of, maybe the comment i have posted before this one might help increase your understanding.

Even better would be reading through the comments from near the beginning, i considered taking it to CC a few months ago. Which might be the right thing to do, i still have all the recorded evidence to present. There is an awful lot, you can be sure of that.

 

[LifelongLearner]

Now I remember you. Those who disagree with you are trolls (along with bullies and derailers). Thanks for reminding me.

As i said, i still have the evidence, the trolling is undeniable.

 

[studier]

As i said, i still have the evidence, the trolling is undeniable.

Here's a link to my last post re: you now that you've reminded me.

 

[LifelongLearner]

Here's a link to my last post re: you now that you've reminded me.

Sorry, that really made me laugh, i don't value your opinion, you and i are not soul friends in the making.
Edit: Also, i did think you were one of the trolls in the early days, now think it likely, will read more.

 

[studier]

Sorry, that really made me laugh, i don't value your opinion, you and i are not soul friends in the making.
Edit: Also, i did think you were one of the trolls in the early days, now think it likely, will read more.

Happy to bring a laugh to your day as you have mine.

Your opinion on free will was not well thought out. Your argumentation for your opinion is non-existent.

 

[Jimbone]

If free will doesn't exist then life is without meaning, and you might as well eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die. Oh, wait, that would mean making a choice!

This isn't true at all. You assert it with great confidence, but it just isn't true. What you hear is "we don't have choice or agency", but that is not the same thing as saying "we don't have free will". Jesus tells us we are SLAVES of sin, that is NOT FREE will, and that is how we are ALL born. So we are all born without FREE will, we are born with a will enslaved to sin. Only those who have been born again in Spirit can truly understand this, and so few here seem to "get it" in truth. What does Paul say about our will after being born again? Is it free then? Well it is free from sin but now a slave to obediance leading to righteousness. So still not "free". I'd love to see any scripture that tells us we do have a free will, but first you have to grasp the truth that free will and choice are NOT the same thing at all.

Like your assertion here has no grounded foundation, is not founded on truth, and it is not found in scripture, it's really just your opinion being put forth as if it can't be questioned and anyone who disagrees is wrong. I respectfully disagree.

 

[LifelongLearner]

Happy to bring a laugh to your day as you have mine.

Your opinion on free will was not well thought out. Your argumentation for your opinion is non-existent.

As a supposedly too emotional at times woman, aren't i the one who's meant to exhibit throwing my toys out of the pram behaviour?

 

[LifelongLearner]

This isn't true at all. You assert it with great confidence, but it just isn't true. What you hear is "we don't have choice or agency", but that is not the same thing as saying "we don't have free will". Jesus tells us we are SLAVES of sin, that is NOT FREE will, and that is how we are ALL born. So we are all born without FREE will, we are born with a will enslaved to sin. Only those who have been born again in Spirit can truly understand this, and so few here seem to "get it" in truth. What does Paul say about our will after being born again? Is it free then? Well it is free from sin but now a slave to obediance leading to righteousness. So still not "free". I'd love to see any scripture that tells us we do have a free will, but first you have to grasp the truth that free will and choice are NOT the same thing at all.

Like your assertion here has no grounded foundation, is not founded on truth, and it is not found in scripture, it's really just your opinion being put forth as if it can't be questioned and anyone who disagrees is wrong. I respectfully disagree.

"I'd love to see any scripture that tells us we do have a free will, but first you have to grasp the truth that free will and choice are NOT the same thing at all."

Kudos, couldn't be better said, cheers