God had given us a commandment the Tithes & Offerings. How people today followed the commandment?

[Genez]

Tell him that Paul was assigned to the Gentiles. I said that very thing. However, nobody has quoted one verse that even hints at Paul being the replacement of Judas.

MM

Paul was the replacement for the missing apostle.

According to God's word, there are only twelve apostles for the Church age.




There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west.
The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Revelation 21:13-14

 

[Godsgood]

You are assuming into the text what clearly is not there. Paul was THE apostle to the Gentiles and of the mystery hidden in God from the creation of the world. That's why his gospel was different from that of the 12. The 11 chose the replacement for Judas, and the Lord said not one word to them for having done so by lots. It's armchair experts in modern times who criticize the 11 for what they did.

MM

So as there is no written Apostles Matthias.

 

[Musicmaster]

Paul was the replacement for the missing apostle.

According to God's word, there are only twelve apostles for the Church age.




There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west.
The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Revelation 21:13-14

Again, that is only an assumption on your part. You have no text to quote from scripture that names the twelve names on those stones. You cannot prove that the apostle chosen by lots is not the twelfth written thereon, can you? Proof please, in the place of rationalizations that have no basis within scripture to which you can point like one can point at adultery being sin.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

So as there is no written Apostles Matthias.

Acts 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Now, the inspired writing within that verse did not follow with any record of chastisement for having chosen him by lots. If the Lord were not pleased with their choice and methods for arriving at that choice, we're met with silence from the Lord. All scripture is true and trustworthy, and to assume untrustworthiness as some do when they assume Paul was the twelfth, they do err.

MM

 

[JohnDB]

Look, I'm Israeli, and your statements are nonsense to me. 13 tribes?

No, I don't follow any of that.

MM

There is no "tribe of Joseph". Ephraim and Manassah were adopted by Jacob....in order to backhandedly give Joseph a double portion of Inheritance. (Joseph did more to save the family than Judah did and most certainly more than Reuben who lost his position of firstborn by indescretion)

Raising the number of Jacob's children to 13.

Can you count?

Are you sure?

Now some say Manassah has an Eastern and Western tribe bringing the total up to 14. But I don't go that far myself.

Just to 13....which is what is really there and not just symbolically there.

 

[Godsgood]

Acts 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Now, the inspired writing within that verse did not follow with any record of chastisement for having chosen him by lots. If the Lord were not pleased with their choice and methods for arriving at that choice, we're met with silence from the Lord. All scripture is true and trustworthy, and to assume untrustworthiness as some do when they assume Paul was the twelfth, they do err.

MM

The Truth we are looking is, Who is Electing Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists and Pastors.
The People or Jesus Christ?

 

[Musicmaster]

There is no "tribe of Joseph". Ephraim and Manassah were adopted by Jacob....in order to backhandedly give Joseph a double portion of Inheritance. (Joseph did more to save the family than Judah did and most certainly more than Reuben who lost his position of firstborn by indescretion)

Raising the number of Jacob's children to 13.

Can you count?

Are you sure?

Now some say Manassah has an Eastern and Western tribe bringing the total up to 14. But I don't go that far myself.

Just to 13....which is what is really there and not just symbolically there.

Ad hominem insults are not necessary, but since personal attacks like that are the only strength in favor of your arguments, I'll just leave it at that.

Additionally, your rationalizations are either from your own imagination or from someone whom you have chosen to trust is telling you the absolute truth.

Either way, you've failed to win the day.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

The Truth we are looking is, Who is Electing Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists and Pastors.
The People or Jesus Christ?

How can we know that the Lord is not the One who moved them to do as they had done, especially given that the Lord did not step in to correct them through chastisement and setting forth His own choice IF the one they had chosen was not His choice as well. Apart from silence, then, what other basis do you have for your doubts and assertions?

Just curious, that's all. I like hearing what others think and why.

MM

 

[Genez]

Again, that is only an assumption on your part. You have no text to quote from scripture that names the twelve names on those stones. You cannot prove that the apostle chosen by lots is not the twelfth written thereon, can you? Proof please, in the place of rationalizations that have no basis within scripture to which you can point like one can point at adultery being sin.

MM

It seems intriguing that we do not see Mathias's name mentioned, other than the quick (pre church age) election of him by men.

But, Paul? Who wrote about 70% of the New Testament?
He does not qualify?
Being more advanced in doctrinal understanding than Peter?

God determined upon whom the anointing of wisdom and insight falls upon.
And, that would have been the gift of apostleship.


It is an appeal to reason I offer you.

Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God."

1 Corinthians 1:1a
​

Not called by the will of men.

 

[JohnDB]

Ad hominem insults are not necessary, but since personal attacks like that are the only strength in favor of your arguments, I'll just leave it at that.

Additionally, your rationalizations are either from your own imagination or from someone whom you have chosen to trust is telling you the absolute truth.

Either way, you've failed to win the day.

MM

Well, you claimed to be raised Jewish.

I never was even though I have Jewish ancestors.

How is it you don't know that there truly was 13 distinct tribes?
If you need me to count them out for you.... I can if you have trouble with such. Oh....as far as ad hominid attacks. I leave room for such things with false accusers as to having dyslexia or some other cognitive issues. (Over-churched) If I really wanted to be giving ad hominid attacks I would suggest something about you having a lot in common with Lamech with the two wives. (Genesis 5....much more accurate and poignant considering the discussions YOU seem to be having....he thought himself to be special as well.)

Just saying....

 

[Genez]

Well, you claimed to be raised Jewish.

I never was even though I have Jewish ancestors.

How is it you don't know that there truly was 13 distinct tribes?

One was the tribe of Dan banished by God.
The tribe of Dan is not included in the list of the 144,000 sealed servants of God in Revelation 7:4-8.

That is why we see only 12 tribes mentioned by means of the apostles in Heaven.

Revelation 21:12-14:​

​

It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. ​

On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. There were three ​

gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. ​

The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the​

twelve apostles of the Lamb.​

This passage describes the New Jerusalem, with its twelve gates bearing the names of the twelve tribes and its twelve foundations bearing the names of the twelve apostles.

grace and peace ............

 

[Aaron56]

Paul was the replacement for the missing apostle.

According to God's word, there are only twelve apostles for the Church age.

There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west.
The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Revelation 21:13-14

Paul acknowledges "the 12" which included Matthias.

I agree there are only 12 Apostles of the Lamb whose names are written on the foundation seen in Revelation.

Regardless, if you don't include Matthias, what of Barnabas, Silas, Timothy, James... they are all called apostles?

The original 12 had to be a "witness" to the Jews. Their standard of witness was to have actually SEEN the event. What were they witness to:

“Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”

They could witness His ministry, baptism, resurrection and ascension.

Paul did not meet even the legal requirement of a "witness" as he did not perceive any of the events. God does not keep lower standards than man.

Here's another question: Why 12? Why not 13 or just leave it at 11? And why, when Matthias was chosen and Paul was chosen (with Barnabas) were others called apostles too? Don't you have enough apostles?

Because, to the Jews, the number 12 was significant. It meant "divine order" and "perfection". Here, for a witness, it would have signified a perfect witness. The number 12 was also ingrained into their history as a people. Only 2 men of age were needed to establish something as true. When Peter arose with the other 11, 12 total men of age were declaring the same thing. It was irrefutable evidence that what Peter proclaimed was true: Jesus was the Messiah and you killed Him!

 

[Aaron56]

The Truth we are looking is, Who is Electing Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists and Pastors.
The People or Jesus Christ?

How about here:

"Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2 As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3 Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away."

And later...

"But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard this, they tore their clothes and ran in among the multitude, crying out..."

Was Barnabas an apostle? Did man or God choose him?

 

[Musicmaster]

It seems intriguing that we do not see Mathias's name mentioned, other than the quick (pre church age) election of him by men.

Ok. So? The eleven seemed to know him, as did the Lord.

But, Paul? Who wrote about 70% of the New Testament?
He does not qualify?
Being more advanced in doctrinal understanding than Peter?

To what are you appealing? Scripture speaks of the eleven recognizing Paul and his apostleship, but they not even once speak of him being of them nor serving with them as the replacement for Judas. You reject the choice through lots of Matthias...on a basis of pure, subjective reasoning that has no biblical backing that is quoted anywhere in your post. Is there some reason you're excluding scripture in the place of your subjective reasoning? I'm just finding this to be highly curious.

God determined upon whom the anointing of wisdom and insight falls upon.
And, that would have been the gift of apostleship.

It is an appeal to reason I offer you.

Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God."

1 Corinthians 1:1a
​

Not called by the will of men.

AN apostle, but never one called by the Lord or anyone else as being one AMONG THE others in Jerusalem. The indefinite article is most telling in this. We both know that "apostle" simply means "one who is sent." When you go beyond that by the power of your own mind to number Paul among the eleven, especially when you consider that Paul didn't even come to salvation until Acts 9, long after the choosing of Matthias.

I'm still left with many questions about how your reasonings in relation to this topic has any more relevance to reality, thus overshadowing the silence of any objection from God about the acceptance of Matthias on the basis of lots.

I hope you can appreciate the dilemma.

MM

 

[Genez]

Paul acknowledges "the 12" which included Matthias.

I agree there are only 12 Apostles of the Lamb whose names are written on the foundation seen in Revelation.

Regardless, if you don't include Matthias, what of Barnabas, Silas, Timothy, James... they are all called apostles?

The original 12 had to be a "witness" to the Jews. Their standard of witness was to have actually SEEN the event. What were they witness to:

“Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”

They could witness His ministry, baptism, resurrection and ascension.

Paul did not meet even the legal requirement of a "witness" as he did not perceive any of the events. God does not keep lower standards than man.

Here's another question: Why 12? Why not 13 or just leave it at 11? And why, when Matthias was chosen and Paul was chosen (with Barnabas) were others called apostles too? Don't you have enough apostles?

Because, to the Jews, the number 12 was significant. It meant "divine order" and "perfection". Here, for a witness, it would have signified a perfect witness. The number 12 was also ingrained into their history as a people. Only 2 men of age were needed to establish something as true. When Peter arose with the other 11, 12 total men of age were declaring the same thing. It was irrefutable evidence that what Peter proclaimed was true: Jesus was the Messiah and you killed Him!

Peter ordered the vote for Matthias before he was transformed into a new creation in Christ.
He did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit yet.
Peter was following old Jewish tradition....

Peter was in many ways a dumb butt until later on.

The Bible keeps a record of Peter's (and others) mistakes so that Christians can take heart after they realize that in immaturity
they too had done some very dumb things. You have not?

 

[Genez]

Ok. So? The eleven seemed to know him, as did the Lord.



To what are you appealing? Scripture speaks of the eleven recognizing Paul and his apostleship, but they not even once speak of him being of them nor serving with them as the replacement for Judas. You reject the choice through lots of Matthias...on a basis of pure, subjective reasoning that has no biblical backing that is quoted anywhere in your post. Is there some reason you're excluding scripture in the place of your subjective reasoning? I'm just finding this to be highly curious.



AN apostle, but never one called by the Lord or anyone else as being one AMONG THE others in Jerusalem. The indefinite article is most telling in this. We both know that "apostle" simply means "one who is sent." When you go beyond that by the power of your own mind to number Paul among the eleven, especially when you consider that Paul didn't even come to salvation until Acts 9, long after the choosing of Matthias.

I'm still left with many questions about how your reasonings in relation to this topic has any more relevance to reality, thus overshadowing the silence of any objection from God about the acceptance of Matthias on the basis of lots.

I hope you can appreciate the dilemma.

MM

Peter was not yet a Christian when the vote took place.
That took place at Pentecost.

But? What ever you say must be right.

OK.....

 

[Genez]

Ok. So? The eleven seemed to know him, as did the Lord.
MM

There was a second man just as qualified. Remember?
That's why they voted!

Why wasn't it the other one?
After all.

He would have been just as qualified (according to the standard you just presented. )

Meaningless.

 

[JohnDB]

One was the tribe of Dan banished by God.
The tribe of Dan is not included in the list of the 144,000 sealed servants of God in Revelation 7:4-8.

That is why we see only 12 tribes mentioned by means of the apostles in Heaven.

Revelation 21:12-14:​

​

It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. ​

On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. There were three ​

gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. ​

The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the​

twelve apostles of the Lamb.​

This passage describes the New Jerusalem, with its twelve gates bearing the names of the twelve tribes and its twelve foundations bearing the names of the twelve apostles.

grace and peace ............

OR
It's a carry over from Moses and Joshua who stated "12 tribes" when there was actually 13 in front of them.

Dan's tribe wasn't banned at this time.
And how did Dan's become banished? I never read or heard that anywhere before today. (I've heard other reasons why Dan is not in the list of 144,000....but not this one)

Just having a discussion here. Not saying I agree or disagree....just looking for a more complete explanation as to why you believe Dan was excluded and why and how that related to the 12/13 apostles.

 

[Genez]

OR
It's a carry over from Moses and Joshua who stated "12 tribes" when there was actually 13 in front of them.

Dan's tribe wasn't banned at this time.
And how did Dan's become banished? I never read or heard that anywhere before today. (I've heard other reasons why Dan is not in the list of 144,000....but not this one)

Just having a discussion here. Not saying I agree or disagree....just looking for a more complete explanation as to why you believe Dan was excluded and why and how that related to the 12/13 apostles.

Here are some notes I located that may help to clarify....

16 Dan shall rule his people​

{this is referring to the Tribulation when a false prophet will rise​

from the tribe of Dan to work in conjunction with Satan and try and​

mislead the people. He will rule as Satan's stooge},​

as one of the tribes of Israel. ​

17Dan shall be a serpent by the way​

{the tribe of Dan was the first to go into idolatry in Judges 18:30​

it always held up the rear (Numbers 10:25) and was the last to​

receive an inheritance in Joshua 19:47-49},​

an 'puff adder snake' in the path, that bites the horse heels​

{the horse is Israel in the Tribulation},​

so that his rider shall fall backward​

{the rider of the horse is all believers in Israel in the Tribulation​

that the false dictator will try to mislead and cause to fall back​

from God (Revelation 13)}.​

Genesis 49:16-17

{Note: Dan is omitted from the genealogies of I Chronicles Chapters 2:10 and is omitted from the tribes that send out evangelists in the Tribulation (Revelation 2:4-8)}

 

[Musicmaster]

There was a second man just as qualified. Remember?
That's why they voted!

Why wasn't it the other one?
After all.

He would have been just as qualified (according to the standard you just presented. )

Meaningless.

So, as with the fleece placed outside overnight to let the Lord convey a message in answer to a question (knock on wood), the lots can also be the means through which the Lord made His own choice between the two. If you want to know why the one and not the other, ask that of the Lord when you see Him. He may, or He may not, answer to you. (shrug) Not sure why you would ask any other mortal that question...

MM