Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Biblical truth concerning the natural man: The flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other. The mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Flesh serves the law of sin. Good itself does not dwell in me.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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"Free will" in the Bible? ~ Freedom is something believers are called to (Galatians 5 verse 13). We need Jesus to “set us free” (Galatians 5 verse 1). If Jesus has not freed us from the bondage of sin, then we are still slaves to sin (Romans 6 verses 6-7). Freedom is found in the presence of the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3 verse 17). Only Jesus can give us true freedom (John 8 verse 36). Only through His lovingkindness can we truly make choices unfettered by a nature that is inherently hostile toward God.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Yes, both God's initiation and sinners' cooperation/faith result in salvation and should not be divorced.
A passage teaching this truth is Colossians 2:6-7
actually, this truth is stated all the way back in Genesis 4 ...

Genesis 4:6-7 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

... on and on throughout all generations to this day ... and into future generations ... God continuously reaches out to mankind.

How mankind responds to God having reached out determines the ultimate destination for all ...

to those who believe ... salvation ...

Romans 1:16-27 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein [the gospel of Christ] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

from faith to faith ... not works to faith or faith to works, but faith to faith ... the justified ones live by faith ... faith is not works [
click]


to those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness ... wrath of God ...

Romans 1:18-20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse

Those under wrath of God ... not because God withheld anything from them, but because they, of their own volition, suppress the truth in unrighteousness.
.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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From 2 Timothy 1 verses 8b-9 Join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God. He has saved us and called us to a holy life - not because of anything we have done but because of His own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time.
 

Magenta

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Romans 9 verses 11-13 ~ Before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand, not by works but by Him who calls, she (Rebekah) was told, “The older will serve the younger.” So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
 

Magenta

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@2ndTimeIsTheCharm loves to show how much she dislikes and disagrees with Scripture.

Which one might think is really weird, unless you knew them.

It is her habit to claim Scriptural truths are un-Biblical.

So even though it is weird, it becomes predictable.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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John 15 verse 16 plus from 1 Peter 2 verse 9 ~ You did not choose Me, but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit— fruit that will remain— so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you. You are a chosen people. a royal priesthood, a people to proclaim the virtues of Him Who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Revelation 22 verses 11-13 ~ Let the unrighteous continue to be unrighteous, and the vile continue to be vile; let the righteous continue to practice righteousness, and the holy continue to be holy.” “Behold, I am coming soon, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
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I agree with your initial statement, but I disagree with how you come to the conclusion. You agree that God justifies, but make justification incumbent on the choices of men. You limit the actions of God to the whims of men. God is able to offer salvation, but unable to unilaterally effect salvation. The Bible is replete with examples otherwise. And your view actually negates grace as the impetus of salvation.
Why is belief a whim? It's interesting how you downgrade one of the most important words in Scripture re: man's relationship with God.

Yes, faith is necessary for justification. God limits Himself to justify men from faith.

The Bible is filled with instruction about this.

Salvation is by grace through faith.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
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You have faith as an action of men. Romans 10 says it is the result of the action of God. So does Romans 4:1-5.
Faith is an action by men in response to an action by God. This is what Romans 10 says. This is also what Rom4 says.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Faith is an action by men in response to an action by God. This is what Romans 10 says. This is also what Rom4 says.
He Who began a good work in you will complete it. Well, that's what Scripture says.

I can't be sure if you agree when so much of what you say aligns against what the Bible says of the natural man. I don't think many here understand who that guy is. We hear all sorts of denials of what Scripture actually says and those same people then insert what they believe instead. He's not such a bad guy. He certainly does not require Divine intervention. He is not a slave to sin "unless." He's not even a slave. While under the power of the devil he is called free. So much nonsense and you undersign it.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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from Romans 5 verse 10 / John 8 verses 31b-32 / Ephesians 5 verse 8 / 1 Thessalonians 5 verse 5 / Romans 6 verse 18 / John 8 verse 36 ~ While we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son. “If you continue in My word, you are truly My disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” You were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light. You are all sons of the light and sons of the day; we do not belong to the night or to the darkness. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
65,269
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Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. Stand firm, then, and do not be encumbered once more by a yoke of slavery. For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death. Now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the outcome is eternal life. 2 Corinthians 3 verse 17; Galatians 5 verse 1; Romans 8 verse 2; from Romans 6 verse 22
 
Oct 19, 2024
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USA-TX
More conflating. You are now lumping in sanctification with salvation. Try to stay on point. I'm not talking about sanctification. I'm talking about salvation and the role of God in it.
Saving faith is only possible for those who are free to acquire it. Until you reconcile what God has said concerning the nature of the fallen natural man and the nature of salvation, you will continue to misunderstand it.
Conflating means harmonizing or interpreting Scripture in context with the whole of GW,
which is what we all ought to be doing, and all fallen men are free to acquire salvation,
which begins the process of sanctification as the Scripture I cited teach, so be slow to divorce them.

TOP #55: Believers should renew their minds so that they will appreciate God’s good, pleasing and perfect will. [Rom. 12:2]

TOP #45: God has the power to determine what is required for salvation, and He is just to destroy those who resist His will. [Rom. 9:16-29] After noting (in verses 6-13) that God had chosen which one of Rebecca’s sons (through whom Messiah’s lineage would be traced) before they were born (cf. Mal. 1:2-3) . The word translated as “hate” (miseo) is the same as in Luke 14:26 with reference to family, so a better translation would be “preferred”: loving Jacob/hating Esau refers to God preferring that Jacob’s descendants serve as the heritage for Messiah rather than to individual salvation.

31. Romans 9:14-16 stresses that s/e depends on God’s mercy rather than being achieved by human effort, although the preceding context has shown that (the non-meritorious condition of) faith is involved, which truth can be stated as “God initiates; sinners cooperate—or not”, because of MFW.

32. Romans 9:17 refers to pharaoh in Exodus 9:13-35 as an example of someone whom God allowed to oppose His will so that His power might be manifested by the plagues. The OT passage indicates that pharaoh was conscious of his sin but “He and his officials hardened their hearts” (v.34b).

TOP #18: Those who ignore God’s urging of repentance will reap divine wrath on the day of judgment. [Rom. 2:3-5] God’s kindness or patience with sinners is meant to lead them toward repentance, which implies that sinners are able to repent because of God’s leading, and those who do not repent but instead stubbornly resist God’s leading are storing up wrath against themselves

TOP #19: On Judgment Day God will enforce just punishment via souls reaping what they have sown or done. [Rom. 2:5-6, cf. TOP #83 & #141] Punishment is just because God does not show favoritism (TOP #22). This truth is akin to karma (Gal. 6:7-9).

TOP #20: Those who persevere in seeking God’s salvation will receive eternal life. [Rom. 2:7-8&10, cf. 3:22-24 & 6:23b] Paul explains in detail that seeking to earn salvation by obeying moral law perfectly is impossible, so we should accept God’s plan of salvation/election (s/e) via faith in the Gospel of Christ’s atonement. Seeking echoes what Jesus commanded (in Matt. 7:7) and connects with the doctrine of perseverance (cf. Heb. 10:36 & Jam. 1:3-4).

[As a former tulipist who learned its error by reading GW for himself with an open mind/heart,
I pray all CC readers will be edified, enriched or given a spiritual boost because of what I share
or pass on before I pass on.]

It only takes a spark To get a fire going
And soon all those around Can warm up in the glowing
That’s how it is with God’s love Once you’ve experienced it
You spread His love To everyone
You want to pass it on.

What a wondrous time is spring When all the trees are budding
The birds begin to sing The flowers start their blooming
That’s how it is with God’s love Once you’ve experienced it
You want to sing It’s fresh like spring
You want to pass it on

I wish for you my friend This happiness that I’ve found
You can depend on Him It matters not where you’re bound
I’ll shout it from the mountain top I want the world to know
The Lord of Love Has come to me
I want to pass it on.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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Why is belief a whim? It's interesting how you downgrade one of the most important words in Scripture re: man's relationship with God.

Yes, faith is necessary for justification. God limits Himself to justify men from faith.

The Bible is filled with instruction about this.

Salvation is by grace through faith.
Why do you attempt to change what I said? Nowhere do I say belief is a whim. Rather, that your understanding makes God subject to the whims of men. God either acts sovereignly according to His ways or He is not sovereign.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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Faith is an action by men in response to an action by God. This is what Romans 10 says. This is also what Rom4 says.
Faith is belief. The demonstration of faith is present or not in our actions. In other words, we do what we believe to be true for the most part. But this isn't the question. The question is the source of faith. If faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, then faith originates with God, not men.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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Conflating means harmonizing or interpreting Scripture in context with the whole of GW,
which is what we all ought to be doing, and all fallen men are free to acquire salvation,
which begins the process of sanctification as the Scripture I cited teach, so be slow to divorce them.

TOP #55: Believers should renew their minds so that they will appreciate God’s good, pleasing and perfect will. [Rom. 12:2]

TOP #45: God has the power to determine what is required for salvation, and He is just to destroy those who resist His will. [Rom. 9:16-29] After noting (in verses 6-13) that God had chosen which one of Rebecca’s sons (through whom Messiah’s lineage would be traced) before they were born (cf. Mal. 1:2-3) . The word translated as “hate” (miseo) is the same as in Luke 14:26 with reference to family, so a better translation would be “preferred”: loving Jacob/hating Esau refers to God preferring that Jacob’s descendants serve as the heritage for Messiah rather than to individual salvation.

31. Romans 9:14-16 stresses that s/e depends on God’s mercy rather than being achieved by human effort, although the preceding context has shown that (the non-meritorious condition of) faith is involved, which truth can be stated as “God initiates; sinners cooperate—or not”, because of MFW.

32. Romans 9:17 refers to pharaoh in Exodus 9:13-35 as an example of someone whom God allowed to oppose His will so that His power might be manifested by the plagues. The OT passage indicates that pharaoh was conscious of his sin but “He and his officials hardened their hearts” (v.34b).

TOP #18: Those who ignore God’s urging of repentance will reap divine wrath on the day of judgment. [Rom. 2:3-5] God’s kindness or patience with sinners is meant to lead them toward repentance, which implies that sinners are able to repent because of God’s leading, and those who do not repent but instead stubbornly resist God’s leading are storing up wrath against themselves

TOP #19: On Judgment Day God will enforce just punishment via souls reaping what they have sown or done. [Rom. 2:5-6, cf. TOP #83 & #141] Punishment is just because God does not show favoritism (TOP #22). This truth is akin to karma (Gal. 6:7-9).

TOP #20: Those who persevere in seeking God’s salvation will receive eternal life. [Rom. 2:7-8&10, cf. 3:22-24 & 6:23b] Paul explains in detail that seeking to earn salvation by obeying moral law perfectly is impossible, so we should accept God’s plan of salvation/election (s/e) via faith in the Gospel of Christ’s atonement. Seeking echoes what Jesus commanded (in Matt. 7:7) and connects with the doctrine of perseverance (cf. Heb. 10:36 & Jam. 1:3-4).

[As a former tulipist who learned its error by reading GW for himself with an open mind/heart,
I pray all CC readers will be edified, enriched or given a spiritual boost because of what I share
or pass on before I pass on.]

It only takes a spark To get a fire going
And soon all those around Can warm up in the glowing
That’s how it is with God’s love Once you’ve experienced it
You spread His love To everyone
You want to pass it on.

What a wondrous time is spring When all the trees are budding
The birds begin to sing The flowers start their blooming
That’s how it is with God’s love Once you’ve experienced it
You want to sing It’s fresh like spring
You want to pass it on

I wish for you my friend This happiness that I’ve found
You can depend on Him It matters not where you’re bound
I’ll shout it from the mountain top I want the world to know
The Lord of Love Has come to me
I want to pass it on.
More walls of text to obfuscate and confuse. While you believe you are reconciling, you never address the myriad of verses that speak to the helpless estate of the fallen natural man. You have him able to do things scripture says he cannot do.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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what you say aligns against what the Bible says of the natural man..
No, what YOU say is contrary to what the Bible says about "natural man", imposing your own limits that do not exist.
Standard super-determinist gatekeeper mentality, an attitude that is brutal and mean and pharisaical.

********************************************************************************************************

These people did not TAKE THE GIFT THAT WAS OFFERED. By an act of their own volition, their desire, their will. Simple as that.

1Co 2:14
But the "natural man" receiveth G1209 not G3756 the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The KJV translates Strong's G1209 in the following manner: receive (52x), take (4x), accept (2x), take up (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. to take with the hand
    1. to take hold of, take up
********************************************************************************************

Whereas these people DID TAKE THE GIFT THAT WAS OFFERED. By an act of their own volition, their desire, their will.

1Co 2:12
Now we have received, G2983 , not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.


The KJV translates Strong's G2983 in the following manner: receive (133x), take (106x), have (3x), caught (3x), not translated (1x), miscellaneous (17x).

Outline of Biblical Usage
  1. to take
    1. to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
      1. to take up a thing to be carried
      2. to take upon one's self
***************************************************************************************************
[Gen 32:24 KJV]
And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.

[Gen 32:25 KJV]
And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.

[Gen 32:26 KJV]
And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he (Jacob) said, *** I will*** not let thee go, except thou bless me.

******************************************************************************************************
Further exegetical treatment is not necessary. Unless you are a super-determinist.
Because if you are, no amount of exegesis will make Genesis 32 clear.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
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Why do you attempt to change what I said? Nowhere do I say belief is a whim. Rather, that your understanding makes God subject to the whims of men. God either acts sovereignly according to His ways or He is not sovereign.
Sorry, why do you infer the choices of men are whims?

Per CoPilot definition: A "whim" is a sudden, impulsive, and often irrational desire or idea. It can also refer to a capricious or eccentric turn of mind. Essentially, it's a thought or wish that comes on suddenly without a clear or strong reason.

Maybe you this is how you make choices, but it doesn't mean all of us do.

God does act sovereignly according to His ways. He justifies men from faith just as He sovereignly requires from men. His ways are just not what you think they are.