Systematic Bible Study
- Thread starter GWH
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
A literal translation of the Greek text -
Eph 4:11 And ( καὶ ) he ( αὐτὸς, emphatic: the risen glorified victorious Christ) gave ( ἔδωκεν, aorist active indicative ) the indeed apostles ( τοὺς μὲν ἀποστόλους ); but also the prophets ( τοὺς δὲ προφήτας ); but also the evangelists ( τοὺς δὲ εὐαγγελιστάς ); but also the pastors and teachers ( τοὺς δὲ ποιμένας καὶ διδασκάλους );
Eph 4:12 Towards ( πρὸς ) the complete furnishing ( τὸν καταρτισμὸν ) of the saints ( τῶν ἁγίων ), into work ( εἰς ἔργον ) of ministry ( διακονίας ), into edifying ( εἰς οἰκοδομὴν ) of the body ( τοῦ σώματος ) of Christ ( τοῦ Χριστοῦ ):
Eph 4:13 Till ( μέχρι ) we settle down instead ( καταντήσωμεν , aorist active subjunctive , from kata/down and anti/instead) the all ( οἱ πάντες ) into the unity ( εἰς τὴν ἑνότητα ) of the faith ( τῆς πίστεως ), and of the knowledge ( καὶ τῆς ἐπιγνώσεως ) of the Son ( τοῦ υἱοῦ ) of God ( τοῦ θεοῦ ), into a perfect man ( εἰς ἄνδρα τέλειον ), into a measure ( εἰς μέτρον ) of stature ( ἡλικίας ) of the fulness ( τοῦ πληρώματος ) of Christ ( τοῦ Χριστοῦ ):
My paraphrase of the sense of the Greek text -
11 And He gives/gave the very apostles upon whom and also upon Christ, all churches are built, but also, from the midst of those churches , the prophets, as well as the evangelists, and also the pastor-teachers, 12 to assist toward the completely furnishing of the saints for the kind of work of service that builds up the body of Christ, 13 until as a community we should, in contrast to our present state, all settle down instead, at some point, into the unity of the faith of the Son of God, and the unity of the knowledge of the Son of God: into a perfect man, into the fulness of Christ's measure of stature.
1. "And He gives/gave the very apostles upon whom and also upon Christ, all churches have been planted" - The aorist form is not really a tense, but an aspect. It regards the action as being observed at a particular single point in time, like a photograph taken at a point in time. The photo could be of the past, present or future. The action photographed could be momentary, continuous or intermittent. Sometimes context gives some clue as to which of these options appertains, but not always. I would lean towards the aorists here being gnomic: whenever apostles are sent out by the Lord, it is the Lord giving them to the church for the purpose that Paul will give soon.
2. "but also, from the midst of those churches derived from the apostles, the prophets, as well as the evangelists, and also the pastor-teachers," - The apostles planted churches and from within those churches there also arose prophets, evangelists and pastor-teachers. Prophets speak forth a new timely word from God to the church and the world.
Evangelists present the gospel message to the unsaved that faith in Jesus Christ might arise in their hearts.
Pastors tend the flock of God, defending them, tending to wounds with compassion, leading by example. To do this competently, they must also be able to teach from God's word.
Teachers feed the flock of God, but should also have a broader pastoral concern for those they teach. Hence IMO Paul here links pastors and teachers together as one category: pastor-teachers.
3. "to assist toward the completely furnishing of the saints for the kind of work of service that builds up the body of Christ," - These ministries are given to the church by Christ for a specific purpose: to train others to serve in such a way as to grow the body of Christ in numbers and to build a more Christlike maturity in members' lives. If the church is not bringing in new converts, or the members are not becoming more Christ-like, then those of us with these gifts are not exercised them properly. We need to ask God for better understanding and study more intently how Jesus exercised our gift/s in His ministry.
4. "until as a community we should, in contrast to our present state, all settle down instead, at some point, into the unity of the faith of the Son of God," - The word " καταντήσωμεν , aorist active subjunctive " is a combination of kata (down) and anti (instead). It indicates going from one place to another place instead. It us used of leaving somewhere and arriving somewhere else. Churches at present are a mixture of mature and immature, doubting and confident, broken and healed, error and truth, sin and holiness, worldliness and self-control.... But the Holy Spirit is given, and His gifts are given to the church to move members on from immaturity, brokenness, sin and worldliness ... to a place and time to come when we will all have a deep abiding unshakeable faith in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
5. "and the unity of the knowledge of the Son of God" - There will also be a time to come when we will all know Christ as we are known by Him, seeing Him face to face, interacting with His physical presence on the earth, and all our disputes about what He is like and what He wants of us will be obsolete. In the meantime, these gifts need to be exercised to move the members of the church along a path of more confidence in Christ and an increasingly genuine experience of Him.
6. " into a perfect man, into the fulness of Christ's measure of stature." - One day, at the resurrection of the just, all our shortcomings in terms of character and behaviour, and all our theological and doctrinal disagreements will be brought into conformity to Christ's own character, behaviour and truth, so that we co-operate fully in performing God's will toward one another and the rest of creation.
Eph 4:11 And ( καὶ ) he ( αὐτὸς, emphatic: the risen glorified victorious Christ) gave ( ἔδωκεν, aorist active indicative ) the indeed apostles ( τοὺς μὲν ἀποστόλους ); but also the prophets ( τοὺς δὲ προφήτας ); but also the evangelists ( τοὺς δὲ εὐαγγελιστάς ); but also the pastors and teachers ( τοὺς δὲ ποιμένας καὶ διδασκάλους );
Eph 4:12 Towards ( πρὸς ) the complete furnishing ( τὸν καταρτισμὸν ) of the saints ( τῶν ἁγίων ), into work ( εἰς ἔργον ) of ministry ( διακονίας ), into edifying ( εἰς οἰκοδομὴν ) of the body ( τοῦ σώματος ) of Christ ( τοῦ Χριστοῦ ):
Eph 4:13 Till ( μέχρι ) we settle down instead ( καταντήσωμεν , aorist active subjunctive , from kata/down and anti/instead) the all ( οἱ πάντες ) into the unity ( εἰς τὴν ἑνότητα ) of the faith ( τῆς πίστεως ), and of the knowledge ( καὶ τῆς ἐπιγνώσεως ) of the Son ( τοῦ υἱοῦ ) of God ( τοῦ θεοῦ ), into a perfect man ( εἰς ἄνδρα τέλειον ), into a measure ( εἰς μέτρον ) of stature ( ἡλικίας ) of the fulness ( τοῦ πληρώματος ) of Christ ( τοῦ Χριστοῦ ):
My paraphrase of the sense of the Greek text -
11 And He gives/gave the very apostles upon whom and also upon Christ, all churches are built, but also, from the midst of those churches , the prophets, as well as the evangelists, and also the pastor-teachers, 12 to assist toward the completely furnishing of the saints for the kind of work of service that builds up the body of Christ, 13 until as a community we should, in contrast to our present state, all settle down instead, at some point, into the unity of the faith of the Son of God, and the unity of the knowledge of the Son of God: into a perfect man, into the fulness of Christ's measure of stature.
1. "And He gives/gave the very apostles upon whom and also upon Christ, all churches have been planted" - The aorist form is not really a tense, but an aspect. It regards the action as being observed at a particular single point in time, like a photograph taken at a point in time. The photo could be of the past, present or future. The action photographed could be momentary, continuous or intermittent. Sometimes context gives some clue as to which of these options appertains, but not always. I would lean towards the aorists here being gnomic: whenever apostles are sent out by the Lord, it is the Lord giving them to the church for the purpose that Paul will give soon.
2. "but also, from the midst of those churches derived from the apostles, the prophets, as well as the evangelists, and also the pastor-teachers," - The apostles planted churches and from within those churches there also arose prophets, evangelists and pastor-teachers. Prophets speak forth a new timely word from God to the church and the world.
Evangelists present the gospel message to the unsaved that faith in Jesus Christ might arise in their hearts.
Pastors tend the flock of God, defending them, tending to wounds with compassion, leading by example. To do this competently, they must also be able to teach from God's word.
Teachers feed the flock of God, but should also have a broader pastoral concern for those they teach. Hence IMO Paul here links pastors and teachers together as one category: pastor-teachers.
3. "to assist toward the completely furnishing of the saints for the kind of work of service that builds up the body of Christ," - These ministries are given to the church by Christ for a specific purpose: to train others to serve in such a way as to grow the body of Christ in numbers and to build a more Christlike maturity in members' lives. If the church is not bringing in new converts, or the members are not becoming more Christ-like, then those of us with these gifts are not exercised them properly. We need to ask God for better understanding and study more intently how Jesus exercised our gift/s in His ministry.
4. "until as a community we should, in contrast to our present state, all settle down instead, at some point, into the unity of the faith of the Son of God," - The word " καταντήσωμεν , aorist active subjunctive " is a combination of kata (down) and anti (instead). It indicates going from one place to another place instead. It us used of leaving somewhere and arriving somewhere else. Churches at present are a mixture of mature and immature, doubting and confident, broken and healed, error and truth, sin and holiness, worldliness and self-control.... But the Holy Spirit is given, and His gifts are given to the church to move members on from immaturity, brokenness, sin and worldliness ... to a place and time to come when we will all have a deep abiding unshakeable faith in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
5. "and the unity of the knowledge of the Son of God" - There will also be a time to come when we will all know Christ as we are known by Him, seeing Him face to face, interacting with His physical presence on the earth, and all our disputes about what He is like and what He wants of us will be obsolete. In the meantime, these gifts need to be exercised to move the members of the church along a path of more confidence in Christ and an increasingly genuine experience of Him.
6. " into a perfect man, into the fulness of Christ's measure of stature." - One day, at the resurrection of the just, all our shortcomings in terms of character and behaviour, and all our theological and doctrinal disagreements will be brought into conformity to Christ's own character, behaviour and truth, so that we co-operate fully in performing God's will toward one another and the rest of creation.
I was considering translating "capture at the point of a spear" as "menace into surrender", but I thought the face to face confrontation implied by at the point of a spear was important. Jesus did not just command from His throne in heaven and force satan to release those in Hades He wanted freed. In His glorified form He went down into Hades, said "I'm baaack!" and faced off with satan, demanding the release of those He wanted, in a metaphor, forcing satan and he demons back away from the imprisoned souls at spearpoint. and taking them before their very eyes, up to the earth's surface. Maybe some of those souls were allowed to visit loved ones on their way up into heaven, and perhaps they were the ones Matthew mentions. Bodies may not be physical bodies here. but rather heavenly bodies that saints have in heaven as they await the resurrection.
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Naw they aren’t the things from the law of Moses like this are what Paul’s talking about “ works of the law @
“And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.”
Exodus 21:23-25
“And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him; breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.”
Leviticus 24:19-20 KJV
That’s a Hindrance to the gospel of the lord
“Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”
Matthew 5:38-39 KJV
It went from the people repaying the sinner equally eye for eye tooth for tooth justice among them to “ don’t do that old thing you heard but instead be merciful to those who wrong you and you’ll receive mercy forgive those who offend you and you’ll be forgiven turn the other cheek rather than relatiating equally “
or marriage is another good example of how the law hinders the gospel
Moses said
“When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
Deuteronomy 24:1-2 KJV
“They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery:
and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.”
Matthew 19:7-9
moses had said the opposite in the law
“let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.”
they were Constantly asking him about the laws precepts and he was constantly telling them other , new and better things . “The works of the law “ has nothing to do with obedience to chi diet and his word that’s why it can’t save anyone can’t be saved by repaying evil with an equal amount evil that’s not Christianity
“For the law was given by Moses,
but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
John 1:17 KJV
Our faith begins at Jesus not Moses to reject his word is insanity
“And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.”
Exodus 21:23-25
“And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him; breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.”
Leviticus 24:19-20 KJV
That’s a Hindrance to the gospel of the lord
“Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”
Matthew 5:38-39 KJV
It went from the people repaying the sinner equally eye for eye tooth for tooth justice among them to “ don’t do that old thing you heard but instead be merciful to those who wrong you and you’ll receive mercy forgive those who offend you and you’ll be forgiven turn the other cheek rather than relatiating equally “
or marriage is another good example of how the law hinders the gospel
Moses said
“When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
Deuteronomy 24:1-2 KJV
“They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery:
and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.”
Matthew 19:7-9
moses had said the opposite in the law
“let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.”
they were Constantly asking him about the laws precepts and he was constantly telling them other , new and better things . “The works of the law “ has nothing to do with obedience to chi diet and his word that’s why it can’t save anyone can’t be saved by repaying evil with an equal amount evil that’s not Christianity
“For the law was given by Moses,
but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
John 1:17 KJV
Our faith begins at Jesus not Moses to reject his word is insanity