Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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Jul 3, 2015
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There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. Romans 3 verses 11-12; Romans 8 verses 5-8; 2 Timothy 2 verses 25-26
 

Cameron143

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But you didn't answer my question and I didn't see the passage to which you are referring.

Did God choose Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to believe in Him or to make a nation?
I don't believe the Bible speaks of God choosing people to believe. I believe it speaks of individuals being chosen in Christ. Faith or belief is the means by which God facilitates this. But if that is what you meant, I believe both are true.
 

Cameron143

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Not an attempt at humor. Just a simple question.
I will ask the question again.

Is Magenta's question on post # 3253 fair and honest?

Am I truly a heretic for not answering it as written?
It's a fair question. No I don't believe you are a heretic.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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The only ones who bring up TULIP are the ones who say they don't believe it. Yet somehow, they enjoy using extra biblical terminology for doctrines where biblical language is available. Odd.
TULIP is the anacronym for the problematic part of the doctrine of election, which says God determines that only some sinners will be saved and that the majority of humanity are condemned to hell. This dogma may be described as follows:

T – total depravity, meaning souls are unable to exercise sufficient MFW to seek salvation.

U – unconditional election, meaning that souls need not satisfy a divine requirement such as faith or repentance, but God chooses to save some while damning the rest to hell.

L – limited atonement, meaning that Christ died to pay the penalty of sin only for elect souls.

I – irresistible grace, meaning that elect souls cannot resist or refuse God’s will for them to be saved.

P – perseverance of the saints, meaning that the elect cannot repudiate their salvation and commit apostasy, because God perseveres in keeping them saved.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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The only ones who bring up TULIP are the ones who say they don't believe it. Yet somehow, they enjoy using extra biblical terminology for doctrines where biblical language is available. Odd.
funny ... I have seen some comment that the term "free will" and/or "free willer" is extra biblical terminology.

In another thread, I asked folks to please define the terms "free will" and "free willer". Of those who attempted to state what was meant by the terms, it was apparent that the terms did not apply to those who were referred to as an adherent to "free will" and/or called "free willer".

So how about those who toss the term "TULIP" use whatever biblical terminology those who are referred to as "TULIP" prefer ... just let everyone know what is your preferred terminology.

And the "free willers" can let everyone know what is the preferred terminology.

For myself, I generally refer to so-called "TULIP" and so-called "free willers" as believers.

fwiw ... God sees folks as jew, gentile, or church of God:

Jew = jews who are not born again.
gentile = non-jews who are not born again.
church of God = all born again believers who are now members of the one body of the Lord Jesus Christ ... and He is Head over all things to the church. I'm sure He enjoys all the bickering that goes on within His body ... wonder if He ever gets a Headache over all the nonsense ...


Ephesians 4:29-32 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
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Oct 19, 2024
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Considering they have zero verses that articulate and support their view it is kind of not surprising that they pull
out the stops and sink to the levels they do trying to discredit those who post the Truth of what Scripture says.
Scriptures supporting belief in MFW include:

56. M – Gen. 2:17 begins the biblical revelation of God’s moral nature and requirement and is followed up by Gen. 6:5-6 revealing that God is grieved by sin, which truth Paul noted in Eph. 4:30. A main point of the Sermon on the Mount (Matt. 5-7) per Jesus in Matt. 5:20 is that souls should be righteous, and main point of the Sermon on Salvation (Rom. 1-11) per Paul in Rom. 3:21-22 is that righteousness is attained through faith in Jesus as Lord (cf. Acts 16:30-31).

57. F – Deut. 30:19 is one of the clearest statements of the condition of volition in Scripture, and Jesus lamented the sinful misuse of this divine gift in Matt. 23:37. Jesus commanded the correct application of volition in Matt. 7:7 (cf. Heb. 11:6). Paul indicates that God enables sinners to seek salvation in Rom. 2:4, where he says that God’s kindness toward sinners leads them toward repentance. In 1Tim. 2:3-4 Paul taught that God wants all souls to be saved, but he lamented that many resisted God’s will in Acts 28:26-27, like Jesus did in Matt. 13:14-15.

58. W – The short version of Paul’s Sermon on Salvation in Romans is found in Eph. 2:8-10, which states that God’s grace is received through faith, not works, implying that the condition of cooperating (called partnership in Phil. 1:4-5, cf. 2:12-13) with God both by professing Christ at conversion (from first/first day) and by producing the fruit of the Spirit during sanctification (to last/the day of Christ Jesus) is NOT meritorious or a reason to think salvation is earned (Rom. 1:17). However, choosing to disbelieve God or resist His kindness does manifest spiritual separation from His blessings and warrant eventual experiencing of divine wrath per Rom. 2:4-6 (cf. Matt. 23:37).

The concerns of those who accept TULIP—to affirm the sovereignty of God and the inability of souls to earn salvation—are valid, but the solutions are problematic, because they deny or ignore Scripture teaching the love of God for all sinners and the moral accountability of sinners for rejecting the love of God, thereby effectively perverting the Gospel (Gal. 5:6) and impugning God’s justness/righteousness (Psa. 33:5, Isa. 9:7).

The apparent reasons for these errors are threefold: 1. Ignorance of Scripture that contradicts their dogma, such as those teaching the possibility of apostasy, 2. Viewing faith as a meritorious work rather than as the non-meritorious condition of cooperating with God’s grace, and 3. Unconcern about portraying God as unjust by showing favoritism toward the elect. Once these errors are cured by including Scripture supporting MFW, doctrinal harmony is enhanced.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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I have not seen Cameron pushing TULIP. Liars claim he does, though.

Consider these Scriptural truths if you dare. Man up.


"Free will" in the Bible? ~ Freedom is something believers are called to (Galatians 5 verse 13). We need Jesus to “set us free” (Galatians 5 verse 1). If Jesus has not freed us from the bondage of sin, then we are still slaves to sin (Romans 6 verses 6-7). Freedom is found in the presence of the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3 verse 17). Only Jesus can give us true freedom (John 8 verse 36). Only through His lovingkindness can we truly make choices unfettered by a nature that is inherently hostile toward God.
MFW in the Bible:

56. M – Gen. 2:17 begins the biblical revelation of God’s moral nature and requirement and is followed up by Gen. 6:5-6 revealing that God is grieved by sin, which truth Paul noted in Eph. 4:30. A main point of the Sermon on the Mount (Matt. 5-7) per Jesus in Matt. 5:20 is that souls should be righteous, and main point of the Sermon on Salvation (Rom. 1-11) per Paul in Rom. 3:21-22 is that righteousness is attained through faith in Jesus as Lord (cf. Acts 16:30-31).

57. F – Deut. 30:19 is one of the clearest statements of the condition of volition in Scripture, and Jesus lamented the sinful misuse of this divine gift in Matt. 23:37. Jesus commanded the correct application of volition in Matt. 7:7 (cf. Heb. 11:6). Paul indicates that God enables sinners to seek salvation in Rom. 2:4, where he says that God’s kindness toward sinners leads them toward repentance. In 1Tim. 2:3-4 Paul taught that God wants all souls to be saved, but he lamented that many resisted God’s will in Acts 28:26-27, like Jesus did in Matt. 13:14-15.

58. W – The short version of Paul’s Sermon on Salvation in Romans is found in Eph. 2:8-10, which states that God’s grace is received through faith, not works, implying that the condition of cooperating (called partnership in Phil. 1:4-5, cf. 2:12-13) with God both by professing Christ at conversion (from first/first day) and by producing the fruit of the Spirit during sanctification (to last/the day of Christ Jesus) is NOT meritorious or a reason to think salvation is earned (Rom. 1:17). However, choosing to disbelieve God or resist His kindness does manifest spiritual separation from His blessings and warrant eventual experiencing of divine wrath per Rom. 2:4-6 (cf. Matt. 23:37).

The concerns of those who accept TULIP—to affirm the sovereignty of God and the inability of souls to earn salvation—are valid, but the solutions are problematic, because they deny or ignore Scripture teaching the love of God for all sinners and the moral accountability of sinners for rejecting the love of God, thereby effectively perverting the Gospel (Gal. 5:6) and impugning God’s justness/righteousness (Psa. 33:5, Isa. 9:7).

The apparent reasons for these errors are threefold: 1. Ignorance of Scripture that contradicts their dogma, such as those teaching the possibility of apostasy, 2. Viewing faith as a meritorious work rather than as the non-meritorious condition of cooperating with God’s grace, and 3. Unconcern about portraying God as unjust by showing favoritism toward the elect. Once these errors are cured by including Scripture supporting MFW, doctrinal harmony is enhanced.
 

sawdust

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I don't believe the Bible speaks of God choosing people to believe. I believe it speaks of individuals being chosen in Christ. Faith or belief is the means by which God facilitates this. But if that is what you meant, I believe both are true.
So you don't believe God chooses people to believe in Him but you believe God chooses people to believe in Him? I'm sure I must be misunderstanding what you are saying. :confused:

Grace is the means of salvation, faith is the result. We get faith when we believe because God graciously joins us to the Word from whom faith comes. His word in us = faith. Our believing is not what produces faith which is why we are not saved by our believing. No-one produces reality because they believe a certain thing. It's one of the reasons we cannot have relative truth.

You have a habit of asking a lot of questions but you don't answer many. I asked you earlier if your believing the sun will rise tomorrow makes it rise. The obvious answer is no ergo, why would you think that our believing God is telling the truth save us? Our believing changes nothing, it is the power of God in Christ that changes everything.
 

Cameron143

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So you don't believe God chooses people to believe in Him but you believe God chooses people to believe in Him? I'm sure I must be misunderstanding what you are saying. :confused:

Grace is the means of salvation, faith is the result. We get faith when we believe because God graciously joins us to the Word from whom faith comes. His word in us = faith. Our believing is not what produces faith which is why we are not saved by our believing. No-one produces reality because they believe a certain thing. It's one of the reasons we cannot have relative truth.

You have a habit of asking a lot of questions but you don't answer many. I asked you earlier if your believing the sun will rise tomorrow makes it rise. The obvious answer is no ergo, why would you think that our believing God is telling the truth save us? Our believing changes nothing, it is the power of God in Christ that changes everything.
Wow. I answered your question, but I don't answer questions.

Ephesians 1 speaks of people being chosen in Christ. I don't find in scripture where it says people are chosen to believe. If you know of a verse that says people are chosen to believe, please share it.
And I believe wholeheartedly the power is of God. I believe it's all of God.
 
Jul 3, 2015
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The question under consideration was your question to him.
And then he asked you a question, to which you responded with the assessment of it being fair.

So it was not clear which question you thought was fair. And Lamar did misrepresent what I had said.

It is a common problem around here and then he wonders what can be done to improve things when he refuses to man up.

One of his first responses to me was one to mock. Yeah, that is helpful (NOT!). He has zero understanding
of what I am talking about but he goes with mocking instead of asking questions for clarification.
 

studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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You still don't get it.

We are in Christ because God has determined He will save believers. We have determined we will believe. Not rocket science, real simple stuff. :)
Actually, if we could shed the baggage of what's meant by @Rufus and begin looking at this rhetoric with a little effort applied to semantics, logic, other Scripture, and some mutual understanding and grace to work, I could work with it.

"By you're [your] freewill choice [to believe God] you are in Christ Jesus"
  • 1Cor1:30 clearly identifies God as the origin, the source, the cause for believers being in Christ Jesus. No matter how much poor argumentation is thrown against us, I'm comfortable some of us fully understand and believe this foundational truth - from God we are in Christ Jesus.
  • And from God is required that we choose to believe Him to be entered into Christ Jesus by Him. So, in this sense of God requiring that we choose to believe Him, it could be said that we do enter into Christ in part by choice as is God's will and design and actually, His command and requirement.
  • Following @Rufus method of FTFY, I've changed His rhetorical statement to reflect God's requirement to believe which I believe we do make the choice to do just as He requires that we do. I just wouldn't change 1Cor1:30 and would find other Scripture to back this up which I'm not going to do now.
 

sawdust

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Wow. I answered your question, but I don't answer questions.

Ephesians 1 speaks of people being chosen in Christ. I don't find in scripture where it says people are chosen to believe. If you know of a verse that says people are chosen to believe, please share it.
And I believe wholeheartedly the power is of God. I believe it's all of God.
Don't misrepresent what I said. You do ask a lot of questions but rarely answer mine. To get the previous answer I had to press and ask twice.

What is all of God though? If God is not choosing us to believe, who is doing the choosing to believe?
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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And then he asked you a question, to which you responded with the assessment of it being fair.

So it was not clear which question you thought was fair. And Lamar did misrepresent what I had said.

It is a common problem around here and then he wonders what can be done to improve things when he refuses to man up.

One of his first responses to me was one to mock. Yeah, that is helpful (NOT!). He has zero understanding
of what I am talking about but he goes with mocking instead of asking questions for clarification.
I understood what happened. I don't consider any questions unfair. Sometimes the question reflects another's views or terminology that another disagrees with or is unfamiliar. But that can be addressed in the answer or someone can ask for clarification.
 
Mar 13, 2014
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I am not saying Mag is not what you said, but I sure am curious to know what post(s) prompted you to say it,
so I also may be edified, because I have been traveling and missing some discussion. Thanks!
This member has written over 65,000 posts over a period of over 10 years. Extensive, consistent, post history to draw your own conclusions.
 
Jul 3, 2015
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I understood what happened. I don't consider any questions unfair. Sometimes the question reflects another's views or terminology that another disagrees with or is unfamiliar. But that can be addressed in the answer or someone can ask for clarification.
Thank you for responding. Another problem I see is people claiming they agree with the Scriptures I post
but not my interpretation of said Scriptures. Well, guess what? I way more often than not simply let the
Scriptures speak for themselves. Then I get people :poop::poop::poop: all over me for the Scriptures I post and they
deny, flat out deny, what they say but then claim they agree. The lies that fly around here are out of this world.