How do you see the parable of the wheat and tares / net?

[Pilgrimshope]

I have considered amillennialism but I just don't think its convincing. If you follow satan's travel log in the book of Revelation its clear. The devil is active currently in the epistles, in Revelation 12 he is active and deceiving the whole earth and in Revelation 20 he is bound from deceiving those nations.

The chronology from Revelation 19 to Revelation 21 is clear.

In Revelation 19 Babylon has fallen, Jesus returns and throws the beast and the false prophet into the lake of fire
In Revelation 20 the devil is bound and the saints are resurrected and rule and reign for a thousand years, at the end of which satan is thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet ARE which means they were there prior to the devil being there, proving chronology. At the end of Rev 20, we see the great white throne judgment and death and hell being thrown into the lake of fire. This is where Jesus' last enemy, which is death itself, is destroyed and thrown into the lake of fire.
In Revelation 21 we see the new heaven and the new earth being created. Eternity begins.

There are a lot of verses in the OT that talk about a state of life that has never happened, but also cannot be in eternity. Things like long life but not eternal life, things like fishing, planting vineyards, building things, ruling over the nations, biblical feasts being kept and the sun and moon being present are all things that require a millennium. In eternity there will be no more sun, no more night, no more death. Obviously the Christians who are resurrected will have eternal life in the milllenium, but the nations being ruled over will not.

“I have considered amillennialism but I just don't think it’s convincing.”

Is that believing that the riegn of Jesus and his saints of the first resurrection happens in heaven where he was taken to his throne ? Until he returns from heaven with them to gather those of the new covenant resurrection ?


“If you follow satan's travel log in the book of Revelation its clear. “

can you explain what that is I’ve never heard of it .

yeah it seems like you see revelation as one continuos vision like a timeline ?

 

[Omegatime]

Very little of prophecy or johns apacolypse is literal here’s a bunch of examples of what I’m saying

“And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes,

( the slain lamb is a representation of Jesus “ the sacrificial lamb “who was slain and rose up again and his eyes and horns represent the Holy Ghost went into the world the image is figurative not literal. It has deeper meaning than a bloody lamb , its testimony of Jesus and his death and resurrection that the lamb represents.

another example

“So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: and upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17:3-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there’s no literal woman or beast with seven heads and ten horns ect it’s all figurative the seven heads and ten horns are seventeen kings or rulers and there’s another who comes up rhe 8th king that is one of the seven kings but ….there’s no literal beast with seven heads and ten horns

regarding the horns the figures for the ten kings . There’s an example of this with a time period

“And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of Lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17:12-14, 16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

See these ten kings that are going to rise up and join together with the beast should we literally believe it’s for a span of a literal “hour “ in the midst of this very figurative vision he’s seeing ? of lambs with seven eyes and seven horns and giant beasts with seven heads and dragons and women riding this seven headed beast sitting on the “ many waters “ also a figure for the people and nations

Revelation is apacolypse it’s not a literal vision it’s not like an epistle where they are just talking and teaching it’s not even like a teaching parable really prophecy is operating from what’s known in the Bible “ Jesus is the lamb of god is in the Bible so John sees that image “ same with the time periods mentioned ( just a thought to consider however I respect that you don’t agree )

my position is like that” hour “ to me means a very short time period and not literally “ one hour” ….that the “thousand years “ represents a very extended period of time like peters saying here aboit the one thing we don’t want to be ignorant of

“knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:3-4, 8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

god isn’t on our version of time to you a year is a year a day a day a thousand years is a thousand years that’s not how gods timing works though . We might see a thousand years pass and it’s just been as a day to god .

and I don’t know why we would see how revelation is so figurative throughout yet insist to see something in it like “ the thousand years “ as figurative or not meaning actually a literal thousand years …. is far fetched seems at least in the ballpark and to have support but I digress

--------------------------------------------------
Until you do a personal time study you cannot understand this mystery

 

[Pilgrimshope]

--------------------------------------------------
Until you do a personal time study you cannot understand this mystery

Yeah that’s a fair opinion to have

 

[tablet123]

Thanks brother. Who populates the millennium if this is at Jesus' return?=

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Zec 14:5 and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Eze 39:1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

Eze 39:2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

Eze 39:3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.

Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Jesus and the saints will rule for a thousand years on earth over one sixth of the heathen that God spared.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Jesus came to fulfill the law by being sinless obeying God perfectly, and fulfilled the roles of Israel, King, High Priest, Prophet, and is the temple, and sacrifice, and whatever else He had to fulfill.

But Jesus did not fill the role of King which must be done on earth for every role He had to fulfill has to be done on earth for it pertains to people being right with God.

That is the reason for the millennial reign so Jesus can fulfill the role of perfect King and why Israel has to be restored as a kingdom for Jesus will rule in Jerusalem and Israel must be an operating nation and right in the eyes of God.

At the end of the millennial reign the law will be fulfilled and heaven and earth will pass away and the saints will dwell at a new earth and heaven.

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The disciples wanted to know about the end of the world which Matthew 24 does not mention the millennial reign.

So it sounds like it happens before the millennial reign.

At the end of the millennial reign God rains fire upon the heathen and devours them and the heathen go to the great white throne judgement.

So it sounds like the angels are not involved.

But it makes sense if the heathen go right to the lake of fire at the end because they took the mark of the beast, and the angels caused that.

Which the beast, man of sin, and the false prophet go to the lake of fire and are not judged.

Or the angels cast them in to the lake of fire after the great white throne judgement.

But then that does not make sense for they are dead and the dead rise and go to the judgement without the aid of angels.

So how did the angels gather them.

Also the angels shall gather all people that offend but the people at the end of the reign is not all people who offend.

Also the dead raise by the power of God.

So at the end of the reign why would the angels be involved.

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The angels gather the wheat and the tares at the same time period.

Which the saints are gathered before the reign.

Why would the angels have to gather the heathen at the end of the reign when there is a clear distinction between the saints in glorified bodies and the heathen in fleshy bodies.

The saints are ruling with Jesus and are with Him so the tares and the wheat are not growing together.

And there does not have to be a harvest for the saints are with Jesus.

The angels do not have to gather the saints at the end of the reign for they are already with Jesus.

And would not have to gather the heathen.

So at the end of the reign why would the angels be involved.

And God is the one that is the Judge and casts them in to the lake of fire.

So the angels that cast them in to a furnace of fire has to be hell.

But at the end of the reign they are raised from hell and get judged and not thrown in hell.

The angels gather them from the earth.

With all of that being said I think it is before the millennial reign and sometimes we do not see it right.

 

[Hakawaka]

“I have considered amillennialism but I just don't think it’s convincing.”

Is that believing that the riegn of Jesus and his saints of the first resurrection happens in heaven where he was taken to his throne ? Until he returns from heaven with them to gather those of the new covenant resurrection ?


“If you follow satan's travel log in the book of Revelation its clear. “

can you explain what that is I’ve never heard of it .

yeah it seems like you see revelation as one continuos vision like a timeline ?

I believe the reign in Revelation 20 is on earth, because the angel says Jesus will rule on the throne of David. Which is on earth, not in heaven.

Let me show you the travel log that I talked about:

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

1 Peter 5:8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

1 John 5:19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

--------

So as you can see: First satan is in heaven accusing the brethren, then he is cast out in Revelation 12, deceiving the whole earth and I put a few more verses in there showing that currently the world is in wickedness and the devil is definitely not bound. But then in Revelation 20 he IS bound with the effect that he is no longer deceiving the nations he previously deceived. And I know this binding hasn't occured at the first coming of Jesus because all these verses I posted have been written after Jesus' resurrection.

-----------

As for chronology of the book of revelation, I can see Revelation 19 thru 21 being in a timeline. But other chapters I would not be so sure about. I say this because in Revelation 6 islands flee and in Revelation 16 they flee again. Pretty sure we dont have islands fleeing twice. John is also rebuked by the angel twice for bowing to him, I doubt John made the same mistake twice

 

[GWH]

I haven't. Everything is literal until it can't possibly be taken as literal. Then it's symbolic.

And even truth conveyed via figurative rather than literal language is literally true.
Some folks say all language is symbolic. How ironic!

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I believe the reign in Revelation 20 is on earth, because the angel says Jesus will rule on the throne of David. Which is on earth, not in heaven.

Let me show you the travel log that I talked about:

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

1 Peter 5:8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

1 John 5:19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

--------

So as you can see: First satan is in heaven accusing the brethren, then he is cast out in Revelation 12, deceiving the whole earth and I put a few more verses in there showing that currently the world is in wickedness and the devil is definitely not bound. But then in Revelation 20 he IS bound with the effect that he is no longer deceiving the nations he previously deceived. And I know this binding hasn't occured at the first coming of Jesus because all these verses I posted have been written after Jesus' resurrection.

-----------

As for chronology of the book of revelation, I can see Revelation 19 thru 21 being in a timeline. But other chapters I would not be so sure about. I say this because in Revelation 6 islands flee and in Revelation 16 they flee again. Pretty sure we dont have islands fleeing twice. John is also rebuked by the angel twice for bowing to him, I doubt John made the same mistake twice

“I believe the reign in Revelation 20 is on earth, because the angel says Jesus will rule on the throne of David. Which is on earth, not in heaven.”

Read this

“Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:29-30, 32-36‬ ‭

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ:


for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:10-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Can you at the least acknowledge that when Jesus ascended to heaven to his throne at the right hand of God the reigns of the kingdom began in heaven ? And also th at the earth is in tbis state at the same time

“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:17‬ ‭

asp you have heaven celebrating because Jesus arrived in his throne and Satan was cast out into earth where he goes to war with the Christian’s carrying the testimony of Jesus ?

Like this oart also speaks to what I’m saying

“and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:20-21, 24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

see Jesus went into heaven to sit on the throne at gods right hand promised to David’s son . And at the end he’s going to return from heaven to gsther all those who are of this covenant time from the time he rose up into the heavens

“And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

my position is when Jesus went up the kingdom reign began in heavens and the resurrection promised in tbe ot to Israel’s faithful saints the 144000 in revelation ( also not a literal number )

But my position is that the kingdom requires tb of Jesus and the saints began after he ascended to his promosed throne and the “thousand years “ represents a very extended period of time between his ascention and his return to earth with those chosen and faithful saints to fether those who are of this covenant the “ many nations of people who appear after the 144000

can you acknowledge at the least that there’s a kingdom reign happening in heaven since Jesus ascended ?

“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I believe the reign in Revelation 20 is on earth, because the angel says Jesus will rule on the throne of David. Which is on earth, not in heaven.

Let me show you the travel log that I talked about:

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

1 Peter 5:8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

1 John 5:19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

--------

So as you can see: First satan is in heaven accusing the brethren, then he is cast out in Revelation 12, deceiving the whole earth and I put a few more verses in there showing that currently the world is in wickedness and the devil is definitely not bound. But then in Revelation 20 he IS bound with the effect that he is no longer deceiving the nations he previously deceived. And I know this binding hasn't occured at the first coming of Jesus because all these verses I posted have been written after Jesus' resurrection.

-----------

As for chronology of the book of revelation, I can see Revelation 19 thru 21 being in a timeline. But other chapters I would not be so sure about. I say this because in Revelation 6 islands flee and in Revelation 16 they flee again. Pretty sure we dont have islands fleeing twice. John is also rebuked by the angel twice for bowing to him, I doubt John made the same mistake twice

“ I say this because in Revelation 6 islands flee and in Revelation 16 they flee again. Pretty sure we dont have islands fleeing twice. John is also rebuked by the angel twice for bowing to him, I doubt John made the same mistake twice”


Yeah along this thinking your expressing here consider that there’s a vision of the seven seals , coming out from a secret book god has had sealed in heaven as the seals are opened these horsemen come rising out of heaven into earth …..

And then there’s a vision of the seven angels having trumpets in heaven sounding off to the people drawing everyone’s attention

then there are a lot of events and things we read then later on there a vision of the seven vials being actually poured out on earth .

what im getting at is consider that the things the seals reveal have one purpose and actually show the whole story bit from a certain angle of gods determinations being revealed ( unsealed ) to the earth from that hidden book . But what I mean is there are things associated with the seals vision throughout the book not only just in that part

and then consider the trumpets vision has its own purpose and is showing also the whole story from another perspective warning and announcing those determinations to the earth ( trumpets )

and then the vials actually being poured out vision also is showing the whole story from a different angle where

the fulfillment of

those determinations unsealed ,

that he announced with the trumpets , are being poured out now and fulfilled .

But what I’m saying is those three aspects are visable many visions within the book so there’s a progression for sure but not in a singular linear way but rather according to the understanding of the prior biblical line of gods plan and not according to time as we see it in a linear nature but more looking from gods perspective where time is not Linear “A day could be perceived as a thousand years or a thousand years as a day “ so it isn’t linear as we perceive it to be

 

[Hakawaka]

“I believe the reign in Revelation 20 is on earth, because the angel says Jesus will rule on the throne of David. Which is on earth, not in heaven.”

Read this

“Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:29-30, 32-36‬ ‭

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ:


for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:10-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Can you at the least acknowledge that when Jesus ascended to heaven to his throne at the right hand of God the reigns of the kingdom began in heaven ? And also th at the earth is in tbis state at the same time

“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:17‬ ‭

asp you have heaven celebrating because Jesus arrived in his throne and Satan was cast out into earth where he goes to war with the Christian’s carrying the testimony of Jesus ?

Like this oart also speaks to what I’m saying

“and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:20-21, 24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

see Jesus went into heaven to sit on the throne at gods right hand promised to David’s son . And at the end he’s going to return from heaven to gsther all those who are of this covenant time from the time he rose up into the heavens

“And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

my position is when Jesus went up the kingdom reign began in heavens and the resurrection promised in tbe ot to Israel’s faithful saints the 144000 in revelation ( also not a literal number )

But my position is that the kingdom requires tb of Jesus and the saints began after he ascended to his promosed throne and the “thousand years “ represents a very extended period of time between his ascention and his return to earth with those chosen and faithful saints to fether those who are of this covenant the “ many nations of people who appear after the 144000

can you acknowledge at the least that there’s a kingdom reign happening in heaven since Jesus ascended ?

“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Okay you have given me something to pray about.

Could you clarify this: "
my position is when Jesus went up the kingdom reign began in heavens and the resurrection promised in tbe ot to Israel’s faithful saints the 144000 in revelation ( also not a literal number )"

What do you mean? When were the 144,000 resurrected?

 

[Hakawaka]

“ I say this because in Revelation 6 islands flee and in Revelation 16 they flee again. Pretty sure we dont have islands fleeing twice. John is also rebuked by the angel twice for bowing to him, I doubt John made the same mistake twice”


Yeah along this thinking your expressing here consider that there’s a vision of the seven seals , coming out from a secret book god has had sealed in heaven as the seals are opened these horsemen come rising out of heaven into earth …..

And then there’s a vision of the seven angels having trumpets in heaven sounding off to the people drawing everyone’s attention

then there are a lot of events and things we read then later on there a vision of the seven vials being actually poured out on earth .

what im getting at is consider that the things the seals reveal have one purpose and actually show the whole story bit from a certain angle of gods determinations being revealed ( unsealed ) to the earth from that hidden book . But what I mean is there are things associated with the seals vision throughout the book not only just in that part

and then consider the trumpets vision has its own purpose and is showing also the whole story from another perspective warning and announcing those determinations to the earth ( trumpets )

and then the vials actually being poured out vision also is showing the whole story from a different angle where

the fulfillment of

those determinations unsealed ,

that he announced with the trumpets , are being poured out now and fulfilled .

But what I’m saying is those three aspects are visable many visions within the book so there’s a progression for sure but not in a singular linear way but rather according to the understanding of the prior biblical line of gods plan and not according to time as we see it in a linear nature but more looking from gods perspective where time is not Linear “A day could be perceived as a thousand years or a thousand years as a day “ so it isn’t linear as we perceive it to be

Thank you brother. Or maybe a sister? Which ever it is. Thanks.

I am looking into what you have said. You may have won me over. There are a lot of problems amillennialism will solve. The biggest one being the simplicity that we see in Peter, Paul and Jesus' parables which all seem to talk about the second coming being the end of it all, no intermediate state between this age and the eternal age and also no one left in the flesh. I realize I have been trapped by my insistense on premillennialism to force the clear parables and teachings to say something other than what they are saying just to make them fit the literal millennium teaching. This is why I love forums and discussions, it is a great way to learn and to have your beliefs tested.

The verses from Paul, Peter and Jesus that I mentioned:


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. [Context is Sheep and goats judgment]

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Thank you brother. Or maybe a sister? Which ever it is. Thanks.

I am looking into what you have said. You may have won me over. There are a lot of problems amillennialism will solve. The biggest one being the simplicity that we see in Peter, Paul and Jesus' parables which all seem to talk about the second coming being the end of it all, no intermediate state between this age and the eternal age and also no one left in the flesh. I realize I have been trapped by my insistense on premillennialism to force the clear parables and teachings to say something other than what they are saying just to make them fit the literal millennium teaching. This is why I love forums and discussions, it is a great way to learn and to have your beliefs tested.

The verses from Paul, Peter and Jesus that I mentioned:


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. [Context is Sheep and goats judgment]

“The biggest one being the simplicity that we see in Peter, Paul and Jesus' parables which all seem to talk about the second coming being the end of it all, no intermediate state between this age and the eternal age and also no one left in the flesh. I realize I have been trapped by my insistense on premillennialism to force the clear parables and teachings to say something other than what they are saying just to make them fit the literal millennium teaching. This is why I love forums and discussions, it is a great way to learn and to have your beliefs tested.”

i cannot tell you how impressed I am with your response . Not that I think I have to be right but just the fact that you actually considered a view other than your own that you had stated with an open mind and heart . Kudos big time a good example for myself and others to follow in some of these discussions .

yes many of the reasons I’ve noticed as well that you are speaking of and sharing there have led me to consider what I was saying there . I’m not claiming I’m surely right about anything just wanted to have you consider some of those thoughts . I really like reading your posts ot always inspires a lot of biblical thought

Yes those verses there that’s part of what began to make me take a second look years back I used to have basically the same idea of a thousand year reign on earth but over time things weren’t adding together properly everything still doesn’t but it’s much more visa ke and ordered taking the second look from a different angle ( which was my intent in your post to just see if you would take a look and see what you thought .

Whether you see it my way or not , I’d love to get some more of your thoughts after you’ve looked into it.

I’m pretty sure you might find some more tbat I could learn or havent noticed along those lines . To sort of send me in a direction I hadn’t noticed happens a lot here and really stimulates my own personal studies . Been hoping to pick your mind regarding revelation and also Daniel you seem to have a lot of knowledge regarding scripture particularly the prophetic parts


I think these are all differing details of the same thing

“For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭16:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:31‬ ‭

“The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:41‬ ‭

“Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭8:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And it’s just more revelation of it than n places like this more details of what’s going to happen when he comes

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭

“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe in that day.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Even Peter there in 2 pt3 also in my opinion (that’s all it is just an opinion ) all of them are pointing towards Jesus second coming at the end of the world like the parable of the tares and field

“As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:40-43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but each account is adding further minute and fine details fornus this is how I understand “ apacalyptic writing “ or apacolypse seems to work constantly revealing more in imcraments until it’s all unveiled and makes a fuller picture

sorry to ramble incoherently lol but hopefully it made some sense and again my only claim is that it’s what I think doesn’t mean I’m right

 

[Hakawaka]

“The biggest one being the simplicity that we see in Peter, Paul and Jesus' parables which all seem to talk about the second coming being the end of it all, no intermediate state between this age and the eternal age and also no one left in the flesh. I realize I have been trapped by my insistense on premillennialism to force the clear parables and teachings to say something other than what they are saying just to make them fit the literal millennium teaching. This is why I love forums and discussions, it is a great way to learn and to have your beliefs tested.”

i cannot tell you how impressed I am with your response . Not that I think I have to be right but just the fact that you actually considered a view other than your own that you had stated with an open mind and heart . Kudos big time a good example for myself and others to follow in some of these discussions .

yes many of the reasons I’ve noticed as well that you are speaking of and sharing there have led me to consider what I was saying there . I’m not claiming I’m surely right about anything just wanted to have you consider some of those thoughts . I really like reading your posts ot always inspires a lot of biblical thought

Yes those verses there that’s part of what began to make me take a second look years back I used to have basically the same idea of a thousand year reign on earth but over time things weren’t adding together properly everything still doesn’t but it’s much more visa ke and ordered taking the second look from a different angle ( which was my intent in your post to just see if you would take a look and see what you thought .

Whether you see it my way or not , I’d love to get some more of your thoughts after you’ve looked into it.

I’m pretty sure you might find some more tbat I could learn or havent noticed along those lines . To sort of send me in a direction I hadn’t noticed happens a lot here and really stimulates my own personal studies . Been hoping to pick your mind regarding revelation and also Daniel you seem to have a lot of knowledge regarding scripture particularly the prophetic parts


I think these are all differing details of the same thing

“For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭16:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:31‬ ‭

“The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:41‬ ‭

“Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭8:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And it’s just more revelation of it than n places like this more details of what’s going to happen when he comes

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭

“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe in that day.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Even Peter there in 2 pt3 also in my opinion (that’s all it is just an opinion ) all of them are pointing towards Jesus second coming at the end of the world like the parable of the tares and field

“As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:40-43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but each account is adding further minute and fine details fornus this is how I understand “ apacalyptic writing “ or apacolypse seems to work constantly revealing more in imcraments until it’s all unveiled and makes a fuller picture

sorry to ramble incoherently lol but hopefully it made some sense and again my only claim is that it’s what I think doesn’t mean I’m right

Thanks for the kind words, I will always be open to changing my view on a non-essential issue like eschatology, the Gospel and other things that I know for sure I will stand on. But eschatology is always somewhat of a puzzle. I feel likewise: Always a pleasure reading your posts.
Have you seen a potential parallel between the 1000 year reign and Daniel 7?

Daniel 7:13-14 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Many times this is misquoted as being a reference to the second coming, but clearly this is Jesus coming in the clouds going TO the Father in heaven, and there he was given a kingdom.

I looked into the number thousand, and I have discovered the number truly is a hyperbolic number in the Bible all the time. "To thousand generations" is used all the time. But we know God is faithful not only to a thousand generation, but forever.

My biggest problem is the first resurrection language, that is hard to explain as being the intermediate state when people die and go to heaven, or baptism.
Are there any alternatives? What about Matthew 27:52-53? Those people that rose from the dead?:

Matthew 27:52-53
and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

What do you think mate?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Daniel 7:13-14 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Many times this is misquoted as being a reference to the second coming, but clearly this is Jesus coming in the clouds going TO the Father in heaven, and there he was given a kingdom.

That is the heavenly view of what occurred immediately after Acts 1:9 when Christ entered the holy place a 2nd time with his blood to make reconciliation for his people (day of atonement) and to receive a kingdom from the father

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. Acts 1:9​

​

Revelation 5 is a more detailed description of Daniel 7:13-14, when Christ received a kingdom and dominion (the 7-sealed scroll) in Revelation 5:7 and glory in Revelation 5:8-14

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

That btw is why IMO the sanhedrin was so furious with Christ during his trial. They knew the Daniel 7:13-14 prophecy very well and were infuriated when Christ essentially told them that he was its fulfillment

But Jesus kept silent. And answering, the high priest said to Him, I put You on oath by the living GOD that You tell us if You are the Christ, the son of GOD. Jesus said to him, You say it. Moreover, from this time you shall see the son of man sitting out of the right hand of power, and coming upon the clouds of the heaven. Then the high priest tore his garments, saying, He blasphemed! Why do we have any more need of witnesses? Behold, now you have heard his blasphemy. What does it seem to you? And answering, they said, He is liable to death. Matthew 26:63-66​

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Thanks for the kind words, I will always be open to changing my view on a non-essential issue like eschatology, the Gospel and other things that I know for sure I will stand on. But eschatology is always somewhat of a puzzle. I feel likewise: Always a pleasure reading your posts.
Have you seen a potential parallel between the 1000 year reign and Daniel 7?

Daniel 7:13-14 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Many times this is misquoted as being a reference to the second coming, but clearly this is Jesus coming in the clouds going TO the Father in heaven, and there he was given a kingdom.

I looked into the number thousand, and I have discovered the number truly is a hyperbolic number in the Bible all the time. "To thousand generations" is used all the time. But we know God is faithful not only to a thousand generation, but forever.

My biggest problem is the first resurrection language, that is hard to explain as being the intermediate state when people die and go to heaven, or baptism.
Are there any alternatives? What about Matthew 27:52-53? Those people that rose from the dead?:

Matthew 27:52-53
and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

What do you think mate?

I can smell some edification in your words

as I was reading along this was what I was thinking when I got to this point could have been writing my thought

@Many times this is misquoted as being a reference to the second coming, but clearly this is Jesus coming in the clouds going TO the Father in heaven, and there he was given a kingdom.”

amen clearly . It was a vision of this

“Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭22:69‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. ….The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭110:1, 4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:13-14, 27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That last quote there we see in revelation 5 when the lamb is annointed king and everyone begins singing a new song to the lord and praising the lamb for his sacrifice worshipping god and exalting the king after Jesus ascended in the clouds to the fether and his throne like Peter is explaining after pentocost

“Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; he seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:30-33‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“I looked into the number thousand, and I have discovered the number truly is a hyperbolic number in the Bible all the time. "To thousand generations" is used all the time. But we know God is faithful not only to a thousand generation, but forever.”

Amen that’s what I was also noticing it often represents a vast number “ come in by the thousands but leave by the tens “ but doesn’t actually mean a specific count not always of course but often or like your example there that’s the same thinking I was looking at with the time periods on revelation .

Like even when the ten kings get power with the beast for “one hour “ I see that also as being the same just hyperbolic in the other direction representing a very brief period of time rather than a literal hour but exactly the thought I was rolling around and some of the same reasons .

especially with revelation because almost all the imagery is symbolic Jesus is a slain lamb , with seven eyes and horns , the kings and kingdoms are a giant beast with seven heads and horns Satan is a red dragon with the same image as the beast the great sinful city is a woman wearing diverse garments and holding a gold den cup on her hand ect

In the same way ( my opinion ) is what you’re saying there the same thought process . I really appreciate this reply and now want to do some study lol

My biggest problem is the first resurrection language, that is hard to explain as being the intermediate state when people die and go to heaven, or baptism.
Are there any alternatives? What about Matthew 27:52-53? Those people that rose from the dead?

i believe it to be the resurrection of the saints of Israel he promised in thier covenant which they were all baptized into Moses and drank the same spiritual drink we do as Christ the rock also followed after them. He says he would open tbier geaves and bring them into the land he promised thier fathers Abraham Isaac and Jacob Hebrews 11 tells us that’s a heavenly place I believe that to be the first resurrection and they were the saints not men like David who was a sinner but the saints in the ot like Noah or job or Daniel for instance but also am open to listening to any alternative thoughts you might have

 

[HeIsHere]

I haven't. Everything is literal until it can't possibly be taken as literal. Then it's symbolic.

Symbolic is way of describing what is literal/real.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

[/QUOTE]

maybe we could work this part out together and see where we end up

“My biggest problem is the first resurrection language, that is hard to explain as being the intermediate state when people die and go to heaven, or baptism.
Are there any alternatives? What about Matthew 27:52-53? Those people that rose from the dead?:

Matthew 27:52-53
and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

What do you think mate?”

in revelation 7s vision of the people he sees …did you notice that there are two groups distinct from each other ? And each have thier order ?

one the first group is a certain number of the tribes of Israel . the old covenant was made specifically with the children of israel it also speaks of a chosen remnant of the children of Israel numbered by God, who would be redeemed.

and the other the second group are people from all nations and languages and people and they the second group are praising God and The lamb shouting of salvation

“And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. ….

…After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:4, 9-10‬ ‭

so where I’m going with this regarding the first resurrection is each covenant has produced each group in the vision the children of Israel who appear and are sealed first

“These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭29:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And the next group who appears after that who are from all nations and peoples who are identifying the lamb praising him for thier salvation

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And in each of those covenants God promised the people of the covenant a resurrection in that covenant So the children of Israel’s covenant

“Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, and shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭37:12-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Which I believe is fulfilled here

“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if we don’t look at chapter seven as a linear example or timeline type situation but instead of we follow the subject matter according to the two covenants

“The law and the prophets were until John: ( only the children of Israel’s
Covenant 144000)

since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.” ( the gospel sent from Jerusalem to all creatures for a covenant )
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And so I believe each resurrection is a fulfillment of the promise
He made in each of the two covenants one for Israel’s faithful when he came and one for Christian’s when he returns

Every man in his own order Christ the firstfruits (Israel’s chosen including the early church when they died. )

and then they that are his at his coming

“saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And then

“And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: and they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:1-3‬ ‭

See notice in the first section these Israelites were being sealed on earth before something terrible was going to happen on earth but in the second they are before gods throne with Jesus in heaven and their foreheads have been marked and they are said to have been redeemed from the earth . But things are still occurring on earth while they are there

For me the linear nature we normally think of time in makes revelation here to grasp but if we’re able to not think in that linear timeline nature we do all
Of the content rewlly starts to come together like tbat puzzle you mentioned that was really well said and I agree with basically all you said there[/QUOTE]

 

[Hakawaka]

i believe it to be the resurrection of the saints of Israel he promised in thier covenant which they were all baptized into Moses and drank the same spiritual drink we do as Christ the rock also followed after them. He says he would open tbier geaves and bring them into the land he promised thier fathers Abraham Isaac and Jacob Hebrews 11 tells us that’s a heavenly place I believe that to be the first resurrection and they were the saints not men like David who was a sinner but the saints in the ot like Noah or job or Daniel for instance but also am open to listening to any alternative thoughts you might have

When did the resurrection take place?

So would you put the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrection as part of the "firstfruits" along with Christ? Id say it makes sense.

 

[Hakawaka]

That is the heavenly view of what occurred immediately after Acts 1:9 when Christ entered the holy place a 2nd time with his blood to make reconciliation for his people (day of atonement) and to receive a kingdom from the father

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. Acts 1:9​

​

Revelation 5 is a more detailed description of Daniel 7:13-14, when Christ received a kingdom and dominion (the 7-sealed scroll) in Revelation 5:7 and glory in Revelation 5:8-14

Do I remember correctly that you believed in the type of premillennialism like John Gill, where there were no people in the flesh during the millennium [only resurrected saints enter] and that the rebellion occurs from those resurrected after the millenium?

 

[Omegatime]

When did the resurrection take place?

So would you put the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrection as part of the "firstfruits" along with Christ? Id say it makes sense.

----------------------------------------

On the Passover weekend the Lord was crucified. 4000 years from creation. First resurrection in Revelation was written about 100 years after this event