Unsystematic theology.

[Gideon300]

Many Christians wish the Bible was clearer. There are many passages that are hard to understand. Some seem contradictory or contrary to nature. Brilliant scholars with vast knowledge of Greek and Hebrew fail to agree on some interpretations. What hope have people like me, who have no knowledge of Hebrew and only slight knowledge of Greek?

Why does God do this? If we were writing the Bible, we would ensure that there was no place for confusion. The Bible itself tells us why.

The first problem is what is called "the natural man". This is an individual who is either not born again at all or perhaps, spiritually dormant. Those who are born again but rely entirely on their intellect are often confused by what they read. As Paul said to the Corinthians,

"The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14).

This is one reason why it is so important to have the mind renewed. Often, the spirit of the born again believer knows intuitively what the Bible means. But when logic and reason argue against intuition, we have a battle on our hands.

For example, perhaps the greatest truth in God's word for us personally is that God loves us. Unconditionally. Yet how often we look at ourselves and wonder how God can love someone like us. Perhaps our circumstances are hard, even impossible, so we doubt. We wonder if God has forsaken us, yet God's word says that He will never leave us or forsake us.

Luke 10:21 says that God has hidden spiritual truths from the wise and revealed them to little children. So much for the doctorate of divinity.

God has provided the means for any believer, no matter how lacking in knowledge, to receive the true understanding of His word. Paul prayed for the Ephesians what we do well to pray for ourselves, "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in your knowledge of Him." (Ephesians 1:17). Those who are born again can call upon the help of the Holy Spirit to give them understanding of what they are reading.

God may not answer your request immediately. We may need to persist in our request. God's priority is for us to know Him and to know Jesus. Knowledge for the sake of it is not edifying and may result in pride (and I know a lot about that). On the other hand, it is the truth that sets us free. And that apparent contradiction is exactly what I am talking about.

 

[Magenta]

2 Peter 3 v 15-16 ~ Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

 

[Eli1]

The first problem is what is called "the natural man". This is an individual who is either not born again at all or perhaps, spiritually dormant. Those who are born again but rely entirely on their intellect are often confused by what they read. As Paul said to the Corinthians,

"The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14).

Thank you for your great posts recently in this forum. I understand you a whole lot better than most.
Question. What is a "natural man" for us English as a 2nd language people? Is it the Sinful man or a Non-Believer?

 

[Magenta]

Thank you for your great posts recently in this forum. I understand you a whole lot better than most.
Question. What is a "natural man" for us English as a 2nd language people? Is it the Sinful man or a Non-Believer?

In 1 Cor 2 verse 14, the natural man, still unsaved, cannot comprehend the spiritual things of God. He does not understand Christ’s atoning sacrifice, for that is foolishness to him (1 Cor 1 verse 18). The Holy Spirit Himself must convict him of its reality, and of his standing before God (John 16 verses 7-11).So this natural man is unregenerated, one who does not have the Holy Spirit residing within him. As Jesus said, “Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit” (John 3 verse 6).

 

[Eli1]

In 1 Cor 2 verse 14, the natural man, still unsaved, cannot comprehend the spiritual things of God. He does not understand Christ’s atoning sacrifice, for that is foolishness to him (1 Cor 1 verse 18). The Holy Spirit Himself must convict him of its reality, and of his standing before God (John 16 verses 7-11).So this natural man is unregenerated, one who does not have the Holy Spirit residing within him. As Jesus said, “Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit” (John 3 verse 6).
.

So, an unbeliver then?

 

[Ouch]

Some of HIS word is deep, but if we know the JESUS and the JESUS knows us, than HE can lead us.

JESUS told HIS disciples NOT to go out with out the Holy Ghost and after that HE thought the Holy Ghost would lead them.

Acts 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.


JESUS also said in John,
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

So he made it clear if we are reborn with water and spirit we can SEE the kingdom (verse 3) and ENTER the kingdom (verse 5).

So if we know the author and the author will know you and lead us.

I think the problem is people read what HIS word says and don't like it and maybe the man they are following says it does not say what it says so then confusion comes in.

 

[Edward429451]

Many Christians wish the Bible was clearer. There are many passages that are hard to understand. Some seem contradictory or contrary to nature. Brilliant scholars with vast knowledge of Greek and Hebrew fail to agree on some interpretations. What hope have people like me, who have no knowledge of Hebrew and only slight knowledge of Greek?

Why does God do this? If we were writing the Bible, we would ensure that there was no place for confusion. The Bible itself tells us why.

The first problem is what is called "the natural man". This is an individual who is either not born again at all or perhaps, spiritually dormant. Those who are born again but rely entirely on their intellect are often confused by what they read. As Paul said to the Corinthians,

"The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14).

Agreed. You can't really read scripture from your carnal mind, or soul. When we read it and it reads us and speaks to us then we tend to apply it and try to frame it and understand it according to the material world. Most people, Christians included get up in the morning and say, I want...I think...I feel. Such is life for most people. The problem with that is they wont understand it and besides, God don't care what you want, God don't care what you think...God don't care what you feel. That's soulish (mind/will/emotions), and God is a Spirit and wants to be worshipped in spirit and in truth. It's all about God's will for your life. Don't we trust Him? Did we give our life to Him? So it's not us.

So approach Him in spirit. And reading His Word too. Then the Holy Spirit will be our guide and lead us into all truth. So talk to Him while you read the Word. and ask Hi to speak to you and listen when you ask.

If Christians aren't being led by the Spirit when reading the word, then how shall they meet their contact? Holy Spirit is our guide and scripture instructs us to be led by the Spirit. When we don't, we're stumbling around on our own. And confusion sets in, lol.

It is imperative that one make contact with His Guide and comforter every day, or you wont grow spiritually.

The Holy Spirit is my best friend. He met me on the street running (walking) from cops who were searching for me and told me which way to go so they wont find me! There was 3 teams of cop cars searching for me and I was on foot, with a bad back! So I had to stay close. I heard Holy Spirit's voice inside of me, and it was like He turned up the volume to make sure I heard it all! I did not go to jail that day! Praise the Lord!

That's a great testimony I have but you got the summarized version, lol.

John 4:23-24
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth..../KJV

 

[timf]

the natural man is of the flesh. The Spiritual man is one who ha grown in Christ-likeness. To do so is to tradition from living for self to living for others.

2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

 

[Prycejosh1987]

God may not answer your request immediately. We may need to persist in our request. God's priority is for us to know Him and to know Jesus. Knowledge for the sake of it is not edifying and may result in pride (and I know a lot about that). On the other hand, it is the truth that sets us free. And that apparent contradiction is exactly what I am talking about.

Well said. I do believe we should persist in our goals and demands in life. The fruits will come.

 

[Gideon300]

Thank you for your great posts recently in this forum. I understand you a whole lot better than most.
Question. What is a "natural man" for us English as a 2nd language people? Is it the Sinful man or a Non-Believer?

The "natural man" is the man without the indwelling Holy Spirit. In other words, a non believer. I avoid the word "sinner" because people immediately imagine evil. We need to remember that Adam ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. So the natural man is not necessarily especially wicked.

Yes, compared to God's standard of perfection, he falls short as we all do. But he may be a good husband and father, work hard and have good morals. But the things of God are a mystery to him. Nicodemus is a good example. Lord Jesus baffled him with the concept of being born again.

 

[Gideon300]

Well said. I do believe we should persist in our goals and demands in life. The fruits will come.

If our goals in life are according to God's will, absolutely.

 

[GWH]

Many Christians wish the Bible was clearer. There are many passages that are hard to understand. Some seem contradictory or contrary to nature. Brilliant scholars with vast knowledge of Greek and Hebrew fail to agree on some interpretations. What hope have people like me, who have no knowledge of Hebrew and only slight knowledge of Greek?

Why does God do this? If we were writing the Bible, we would ensure that there was no place for confusion. The Bible itself tells us why.

The first problem is what is called "the natural man". This is an individual who is either not born again at all or perhaps, spiritually dormant. Those who are born again but rely entirely on their intellect are often confused by what they read. As Paul said to the Corinthians,

"The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14).

This is one reason why it is so important to have the mind renewed. Often, the spirit of the born again believer knows intuitively what the Bible means. But when logic and reason argue against intuition, we have a battle on our hands.

For example, perhaps the greatest truth in God's word for us personally is that God loves us. Unconditionally. Yet how often we look at ourselves and wonder how God can love someone like us. Perhaps our circumstances are hard, even impossible, so we doubt. We wonder if God has forsaken us, yet God's word says that He will never leave us or forsake us.

Luke 10:21 says that God has hidden spiritual truths from the wise and revealed them to little children. So much for the doctorate of divinity.

God has provided the means for any believer, no matter how lacking in knowledge, to receive the true understanding of His word. Paul prayed for the Ephesians what we do well to pray for ourselves, "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in your knowledge of Him." (Ephesians 1:17). Those who are born again can call upon the help of the Holy Spirit to give them understanding of what they are reading.

God may not answer your request immediately. We may need to persist in our request. God's priority is for us to know Him and to know Jesus. Knowledge for the sake of it is not edifying and may result in pride (and I know a lot about that). On the other hand, it is the truth that sets us free. And that apparent contradiction is exactly what I am talking about.

I agree that Scripture is not written systematically, which is why I made the thread about Hermeneutics regarding how to harmonize GW.
As I obeyed the instruction of Paul in 1Thes. 5:21 to “Test everything. Hold on to the good”, I came to value two NT teachings as key points from which to triangulate or use to guide my interpretation of the Bible:

First: 1Tim. 2:3-4 - "God our savior wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." This verse is in the same vein as Rom. 5:8, "God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Matt. 5:44&48 teaches that God even loves His enemies, which would include Satan.

Second: 2THS 1:6a - "God is just." This is stated also in RM 9:14, "Is God unjust? Not at all!" and in DT 32:4b, "...all His ways are just."
Justness = righteousness, so many other verses are in this vein. Explanations of God’s Word should not impugn God’s justice for all.
I mine these truths from the Scriptural veins to employ as the starting point of my understanding.

What about you? What is your approach or guiding doctrines?

 

[Eli1]

The "natural man" is the man without the indwelling Holy Spirit. In other words, a non believer. I avoid the word "sinner" because people immediately imagine evil. We need to remember that Adam ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. So the natural man is not necessarily especially wicked.

Yes, compared to God's standard of perfection, he falls short as we all do. But he may be a good husband and father, work hard and have good morals. But the things of God are a mystery to him. Nicodemus is a good example. Lord Jesus baffled him with the concept of being born again.

Thank you.
I understood you pretty well until you mentioned Adam.
Do you consider Adam a natural man or an unbeliever ?

 

[Gideon300]

I agree that Scripture is not written systematically, which is why I made the thread about Hermeneutics regarding how to harmonize GW.
As I obeyed the instruction of Paul in 1Thes. 5:21 to “Test everything. Hold on to the good”, I came to value two NT teachings as key points from which to triangulate or use to guide my interpretation of the Bible:

First: 1Tim. 2:3-4 - "God our savior wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." This verse is in the same vein as Rom. 5:8, "God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Matt. 5:44&48 teaches that God even loves His enemies, which would include Satan.

Second: 2THS 1:6a - "God is just." This is stated also in RM 9:14, "Is God unjust? Not at all!" and in DT 32:4b, "...all His ways are just."
Justness = righteousness, so many other verses are in this vein. Explanations of God’s Word should not impugn God’s justice for all.
I mine these truths from the Scriptural veins to employ as the starting point of my understanding.

What about you? What is your approach or guiding doctrines?

My starting point is to acknowledge that my intellect is not able to discern spiritual truth. Spiritual thing are understood spiritually. I also realise that one of the functions of the Holy Spirit is to lead us into all truth. Decades ago, I asked God to grant me the Spirit of Wisdom and Revelation.

I am well aware that it is possible to be deceived. I have spent a great deal of time studying God's word, which is essential to protect against deception. I've learned a great deal from others over the decades. They include the late Ivor Marshall (you won't have heard of him), Watchman Nee and Derek Prince. There are many others.

I endeavor to ensure that I do not pull scripture out of context. Where I can, I look at similar passages. I avoid the King James as I speak modern English and I live in the 21st century. At the same time, there are a few verses where the KJV gets it right and translators of modern versions impose their own opinions on the literal translation. I like to check the literal translation if I'm doing a verse study.

I use Bible Hub as I can compare many versions. I incline towards the Berean, NASB and Amplified.

 

[Gideon300]

Adam, prio

Thank you.
I understood you pretty well until you mentioned Adam.
Do you consider Adam a natural man or an unbeliever ?

Adam, prior to the fall, was a natural man. He was neither for nor against God. He did not have the indwelling Spirit. If he did, he would have rejected Satan's temptation. Adam was not a sinner until he disobeyed God.

Adam remained a natural man. The difference was that he became hostile to God and a sinner by nature.

 

[Eli1]

Adam, prio

Adam, prior to the fall, was a natural man. He was neither for nor against God. He did not have the indwelling Spirit. If he did, he would have rejected Satan's temptation. Adam was not a sinner until he disobeyed God.

Adam remained a natural man. The difference was that he became hostile to God and a sinner by nature.

You know, during my stay in an English speaking country I have noticed, as an outside observer, how the English language has deteriorated a bit due to leftist confusions who try to change language and meanings.
I said that not because you’re a leftist but because I noticed some confusion here in what you just said, perhaps as a side effect of the lefties ideology.

At this point we need to take a break discussing the Bible and theology and we need to discuss the English language itself.

How can Adam be a non-believer when he was in the PRESENCE of God?
A non believer means that you don’t believe that something exists!
So when my father tells me to do something, I can obey or disobey but I don’t believe he doesn’t exist because he’s right there in my house in his bedroom.

Do you want to perhaps rethink what a “natural man” is? Or at least describe it or define it correctly?
To me it means a “Non Believer” and Adam CANNOT be called a Non Believer when he could see and hear God right then and there.

 

[Gideon300]

Now we have to define waht

You know, during my stay in an English speaking country I have noticed, as an outside observer, how the English language has deteriorated a bit due to leftist confusions who try to change language and meanings.
I said that not because you’re a leftist but because I noticed some confusion here in what you just said, perhaps as a side effect of the lefties ideology.

At this point we need to take a break discussing the Bible and theology and we need to discuss the English language itself.

How can Adam be a non-believer when he was in the PRESENCE of God?
A non believer means that you don’t believe that something exists!
So when my father tells me to do something, I can obey or disobey but I don’t believe he doesn’t exist because he’s right there in my house in his bedroom.

Do you want to perhaps rethink what a “natural man” is? Or at least describe it or define it correctly?
To me it means a “Non Believer” and Adam CANNOT be called a Non Believer when he could see and hear God right then and there.

Now we have to define what a non believer is. I believed that God was real, that Jesus was a real Person, God in the flesh, who lived, died and rose again. I believed that to the same degree that I believed Nero was a Roman emperor and it meant about as much. I was an unbeliever in the sense that I had no idea of who God is or why Jesus died and rose again.

Adam was neutral towards God, neither for Him nor against Him. If Adam had been for God, Satan's temptation would have been ineffective. So I see it this way: An unbeliever is against God, as I was even though I was sure He existed. A non believer was neither a believer or hostile to God. Adam did not hide from God until after he had disobeyed. But he also did not partake of the fruit of the tree of life, which would have made him immortal. (Genesis 3:22)

 

[Eli1]

Now we have to define waht

Now we have to define what a non believer is. I believed that God was real, that Jesus was a real Person, God in the flesh, who lived, died and rose again. I believed that to the same degree that I believed Nero was a Roman emperor and it meant about as much. I was an unbeliever in the sense that I had no idea of who God is or why Jesus died and rose again.

Adam was neutral towards God, neither for Him nor against Him. If Adam had been for God, Satan's temptation would have been ineffective. So I see it this way: An unbeliever is against God, as I was even though I was sure He existed. A non believer was neither a believer or hostile to God. Adam did not hide from God until after he had disobeyed. But he also did not partake of the fruit of the tree of life, which would have made him immortal. (Genesis 3:22)

Thank you.
This first part touches on salvation or the process of salvation and I’ll leave that alone for a bit because I don’t think it would be an interesting thing for me to discuss but I DO like your interpretations of salvation on many of your recent topics where you don’t make it a one time event and where you don’t focus it in the future only but also in the now.
So thank you for that.

However, a non believer means that you simply don’t believe or reject the idea of God. That’s what a non-believer is.
And agnostic means “I don’t know if God exists”. So an agnostic is in the middle whereas as an atheist mainly rejects God (which is also a belief onto itself).
But the fact remains in the sense that when we see or hear things with our own eyes, it’s not about belief but in the case of Adam or any other man, disobedience.
Because God told him an instruction, he heard it and he disobeyed .
It has nothing to do with belief. He head, he disobeyed.


Which leads us to your last paragraph on how I understand Adam and the story of humanity.
The story of humanity is the same story of your own lifetime.
You come into this world with ungratefulness and no awareness of consequences.
You could be born into a rich family or a poor family. In either case you have no idea of what’s good or bad or the consequences of your actions.
Through your life’s journey you gain the experience, wisdom AND gratefulness so you can say Thank You to God for this daily bread.
But as a child you have no awareness of a lot of things.
When I was 5 years old and my grandmother told me to not put my hand near the stove because it would burn, not only I didn’t listen to her but I thought that she was making it up.
But when I learned the hard way, I then gained more wisdom of what words mean in relation to reality especially from the people who love you.
This is the story of humanity.
We came in as children, no gratefulness or appreciation. The Father loves us but gave us free will. They took those things for granted, just like we might take all the things for granted including the air we breathe.
Through free will we gain wisdom and more importantly appreciation.
Because for me, right now God is the most important above my family and everything else.
So it’s free will itself which gives you the desire to be with God in the garden again and say “I am sorry it took me such a long time to get back to you Father”.

 

[GWH]

My starting point is to acknowledge that my intellect is not able to discern spiritual truth. Spiritual thing are understood spiritually. I also realise that one of the functions of the Holy Spirit is to lead us into all truth. Decades ago, I asked God to grant me the Spirit of Wisdom and Revelation.

I am well aware that it is possible to be deceived. I have spent a great deal of time studying God's word, which is essential to protect against deception. I've learned a great deal from others over the decades. They include the late Ivor Marshall (you won't have heard of him), Watchman Nee and Derek Prince. There are many others.

I endeavor to ensure that I do not pull scripture out of context. Where I can, I look at similar passages. I avoid the King James as I speak modern English and I live in the 21st century. At the same time, there are a few verses where the KJV gets it right and translators of modern versions impose their own opinions on the literal translation. I like to check the literal translation if I'm doing a verse study.

I use Bible Hub as I can compare many versions. I incline towards the Berean, NASB and Amplified.

Well Gideon, good luck discerning whether your intellect or your spirit enables your learning GW, but I also pray for wisdom, acknowledge my fallibility, and have studied Scripture for 55 years. My sources include everything summarized in the HOB thread,
which is Lessons 6 & 7 of our website <truthseekersfellowship.com> but mainly Scripture, especially the NT.

I also agree with your concern not to proof-text, which is why I major on harmonizing GW as much as possible and systematic Bible study. I have read four translations all of the way through making notes in the margins, but I mainly quote from the NIV. (Years ago I tried to memorize the Today's English Version of the NT, but that was an exercise in futility!)

I look forward to discussing with you on all of my threads, but especially The Didache, on which I am leading a study of doctrines that build on the elementary gospel.

 

[Aaron56]

If I may...

This is just an outline. I can expound upon any point.

You will not find "non-believer" in the scriptures. There is only "unbeliever". The distinction is this: belief is a standard of behavior NOT simply a thought in the mind. All men know God is but, because of tradition, rebellion, carnality, etc. most men live as unbelievers... not living as if God is real.

This is like the word "disobedient" in the New Testament. The root of the word is the same word for apathy. We understand apathy to mean "uncaring or disinterested". To be "disobedient" is to ignore the reality of a standard being.

The key is this: human living assumes a standard of life. The standard for all men is Christ Jesus. Most men are unbelievers; men who do not live as if He is real even though they know He is real. In that reality disobedience is normal.

Last item: Adam had the spirit of God in him. This was the pneuma (nāp̄aḥ in the Hebrew) or the breath of God that was breathed into the lump of clay to bring him alive. Adam and Woman most certainly could have resisted the enemy in the garden.