Atheist arguments, viewed differently

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TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#41
The Theory of evolution is incorrect. If evolution were correct there would be in-between skeletons in the fossil record. There are none. There are no skeletons of any animals in the middle of "evolving" into something else.
Sorry, but you're mistaken. There are plenty of fossils and skeletal records of creatures in the process of evolving from one thing to another. In fact, there are plenty of LIVE SAMPLES of creatures in this process. You're one of them.

Also if Genesis were just to be taken as a myth there would be no genealogy of Adam.
Why not? A genealogy is in fact common device used in story-telling, and has been for thousands of years. In fact, anyone who has studied the history of the early Hebrews would tell you that in fact, a genealogy is yet another indication that it is a story.

I haven't read any part of the bible where it referenced any other part of the bible as a myth.
You really should try the New Testament Gospels, where it says that Jesus continued teaching them using parables. Good reading there.

The bible is the word of God and Truth.
That does not preclude that it is also myth. Just because something is myth doesn't mean it isn't true. In fact, I would argue that it is MORE likely to be true if it is myth than if it is mere "historical record." Historical records are notoriously re-written by the victors. Myths stay alive despite them.
 
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MissCris

Guest
#42
Is it not possible that Genesis 2:19 means nothing more than that God gathered together the creatures He HAD ALREADY formed out of the ground? That seems plausible enough to me.
 
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TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#43
Is it not possible that Genesis 2:19 means nothing more than that God gathered together the creatures He HAD ALREADY formed out of the ground? That seems plausible enough to me.
Read Genesis 2 carefully.

In verse 5, there are NO living things on the earth. No plants, no animals, no nothing. And the FIRST living thing God creates is The Man, in verse 7. AFTER this, God creates plants, rivers, etc., and puts The Man into the Garden of Eden to work the ground. And there's the description of the Rivers (which are actual rivers but they never meet ... further evidence that the author is saying, "Hey, folks, this is a myth, a story, hello...." It'd be like me writing about something that happened in "Chicago, Indiana." My audience would immediately know I was telling a story, because they all know that Chicago is in Illinois, not Indiana. Of course, someone from China reading the same thing, maybe 4,000 years in the future, may not realize that. They may see the city name, and think, "Woah, this must have really happened. I've heard of Chicago."

Anyway. Back to Genesis.

It's not until verses 18-19 that the Lord even considers any other animals. He doesn't want The Man to be alone, so he creates beasts of the field, birds of the sky, etc. He creates those out of the ground. It doesn't say, "God grabbed all the animals he had already created and brought them to The Man." It says "He formed them OUT OF THE GROUND." They didn't exist before.

Again, if you understand all the clues the author is giving you that it is a story, there is no conflict. I don't know why, but somewhere around the mid-18th-century, a few American Christians decided that they wanted to try to force Genesis to be literal rather than allegorical, as it had been understood for thousands of years up to that point.

The problem is, if you try to force it to be literal, it contradicts itself. You have to be a contortionist to "explain away" all the anomalies. "Oh, God created the animals, then he created man, then he had to create some more animals." It's utter nonsense, enough to make me think maybe the Catholic Church was right in saying common people shouldn't be reading the Bible. I mean, if that's what they get out of it...

No, I don't really believe common people shouldn't be reading the Bible. After all, I was rather common and uneducated when I started reading it, and I managed okay, as have millions of others. It seems to me its only people who have been brainwashed into thinking that it has to be literal who have this problem.

It's also problematic, because somewhere along the way, we are taught that if it isn't literal it isn't real. But for thousands of years, humans have understood "reality" differently. When my son says, "No, mom, I didn't break the glass. Someone else who looked exactly like me was clowning about, and he dropped the glass and it broke." Of course, I know what really happened. But my son's story is also kind of true. He is saying, in his tiny little way, that he knew goofing around while holding a glass was a bad idea, and that is why the glass broke. He is telling me -- though he may not fully realize it -- "Yes, mom, I broke the glass because I was being foolish and I'm sorry." He doesn't really think his story is going to fool me, he's not purposely lying to me. He's being a child, and telling the story from a child's mind. And I get that. That's why I tell him, "Well, you be sure to tell that child that it was indeed foolish to play with the glass, but it's all cleaned up now, and it's a good thing no one was hurt." And he knows that's my way of saying, "I forgive you." He may not fully understand it, but he knows it, in his child's mind. He groks it.
 
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MissCris

Guest
#44
Well, that's something to think about.

BTW, I've just recently started to actually READ my Bible, within the last several months. I've HEARD the stories before, but I'm just now getting around to really reading them myself. And cross referencing in other versions. The NIV Genesis 2:19 uses the word 'had' when talking about God forming the animals out of the ground, so if taken literally the way I'm doing, that COULD mean He gathered them together AFTER having created them...but other versions of same verse? No 'had'.

So, either I need to quit worrying whether it's literal or not and just take it as a nice creation story, or build a time machine so I can travel back and see first-hand what really happened.
 
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TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#45
So, either I need to quit worrying whether it's literal or not and just take it as a nice creation story, or build a time machine so I can travel back and see first-hand what really happened.
I would recommend not to worry whether it's literal, but know that it's not "just" a nice creation story. In fact, I've found taking them non-literally means you have to work harder to glean the message. It's not a history lesson, where you just need to memorize the dates and names of places and people. It's a literature assignment, where you have to understand the meanings behind those names, places, etc.

I'm so glad you're reading the Bible. It's fun, isn't it? I learned Hebrew and Greek, so I sometimes sit down with the original texts, which is really fun.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#46
Read Genesis 2 carefully.

In verse 5, there are NO living things on the earth. No plants, no animals, no nothing. And the FIRST living thing God creates is The Man, in verse 7. AFTER this, God creates plants, rivers, etc., and puts The Man into the Garden of Eden to work the ground. And there's the description of the Rivers (which are actual rivers but they never meet ... further evidence that the author is saying, "Hey, folks, this is a myth, a story, hello...." It'd be like me writing about something that happened in "Chicago, Indiana." My audience would immediately know I was telling a story, because they all know that Chicago is in Illinois, not Indiana. Of course, someone from China reading the same thing, maybe 4,000 years in the future, may not realize that. They may see the city name, and think, "Woah, this must have really happened. I've heard of Chicago."

Anyway. Back to Genesis.

It's not until verses 18-19 that the Lord even considers any other animals. He doesn't want The Man to be alone, so he creates beasts of the field, birds of the sky, etc. He creates those out of the ground. It doesn't say, "God grabbed all the animals he had already created and brought them to The Man." It says "He formed them OUT OF THE GROUND." They didn't exist before.

Again, if you understand all the clues the author is giving you that it is a story, there is no conflict. I don't know why, but somewhere around the mid-18th-century, a few American Christians decided that they wanted to try to force Genesis to be literal rather than allegorical, as it had been understood for thousands of years up to that point.

The problem is, if you try to force it to be literal, it contradicts itself. You have to be a contortionist to "explain away" all the anomalies. "Oh, God created the animals, then he created man, then he had to create some more animals." It's utter nonsense, enough to make me think maybe the Catholic Church was right in saying common people shouldn't be reading the Bible. I mean, if that's what they get out of it...

No, I don't really believe common people shouldn't be reading the Bible. After all, I was rather common and uneducated when I started reading it, and I managed okay, as have millions of others. It seems to me its only people who have been brainwashed into thinking that it has to be literal who have this problem.

It's also problematic, because somewhere along the way, we are taught that if it isn't literal it isn't real. But for thousands of years, humans have understood "reality" differently. When my son says, "No, mom, I didn't break the glass. Someone else who looked exactly like me was clowning about, and he dropped the glass and it broke." Of course, I know what really happened. But my son's story is also kind of true. He is saying, in his tiny little way, that he knew goofing around while holding a glass was a bad idea, and that is why the glass broke. He is telling me -- though he may not fully realize it -- "Yes, mom, I broke the glass because I was being foolish and I'm sorry." He doesn't really think his story is going to fool me, he's not purposely lying to me. He's being a child, and telling the story from a child's mind. And I get that. That's why I tell him, "Well, you be sure to tell that child that it was indeed foolish to play with the glass, but it's all cleaned up now, and it's a good thing no one was hurt." And he knows that's my way of saying, "I forgive you." He may not fully understand it, but he knows it, in his child's mind. He groks it.
Nowhere in verse 5 does it say that there no living things on earth. There is no reason why we can't take the account of Creation in Genesis as literal. Someone telling you only dummies believe that creation is true is not enough to make it false. Evolution is false and yet mostly "smart" people believe it, weird.

What proof do you have that people are evolving? What are they evolving into? It's all preposterous to me but if you have the answers I'd sure like to know.
 
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TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#47
Nowhere in verse 5 does it say that there no living things on earth.
Verse 5: "Now no shrub of the field was yet in the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the LORD God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground."

Ummm ... were you in the wrong chapter? No rain. No plants. No animals. No living creatures. That is EXACTLY what verse 5 says.

There is no reason why we can't take the account of Creation in Genesis as literal.
Well, if you want to call God a liar, sure, go on ahead and take it literally if you like. Personally, I prefer to read the Bible as God intended it, and thereby not call God a liar.
 
W

Wonder

Guest
#48
This was meant to be more of a "agrument comeback" thread, but I was over tired, so didn't really come out as planned, I was meant to click preview not post. I wasn't sure how to edit/delete so just went to sleep.

However from the looks of it, it has caused a nice little discussion.
 
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Wonder

Guest
#49
By the way... Have you guys thought about the posibility that Creationism and Evolution share some ground?
 
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TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#51
By the way... Have you guys thought about the posibility that Creationism and Evolution share some ground?
Would you care to share what "common ground" you think creationism has with pure evolution?
 
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MissCris

Guest
#52
By the way... Have you guys thought about the posibility that Creationism and Evolution share some ground?
That's what my sister thinks- she says God created most living things through evolution.
 
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rainacorn

Guest
#53
That's what my sister thinks- she says God created most living things through evolution.
Not a terrible argument. We kinda see God operating like that a lot. He sets things in motion rather than just poofing them into existence. Even with Jesus...He was born as a widdle baby. Plus loads of groundwork needed to be laid for Him to fulfill all of the prophesies. It was a long-game.

The creation discussion is a difficult one to have. People hold very firmly to what they think they know and refuse to even consider another point of view. Meh.
 
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TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#54
That's what my sister thinks- she says God created most living things through evolution.
This is what I believe, also. It is called "theistic evolution." It is an acceptance of the theories of evolution with a recognition that God is behind it all.

"Creationism" is the belief that Genesis is literal, and that God created the universe in 6 24-hour days. (Although recently I've come to learn that there's a version of this who says Genesis is correct but that "day" doesn't necessarily mean 24 hour but it could mean 1,000,000 years.) Basically, creationism argues that evolution is wrong.

Evolution does not make any claims one way or the other about God. It simply describes a process that is observable and testable. Since God is neither observable nor testable, pure science doesn't care about God. (There are scientists who are devout believers, but they recognize that God is outside the realm of science.) It's like 2+2=4 makes no assumptions one way or another about the existence of God. 2+2 doesn't =4 only if God exists, or if God does not exist. It's true no matter what you believe about God. The same can be said of evolution.

Now, there are some scientists who insist that, since we can explain everything worth explaining using science, there is no need for any supernatural explanations. And since there is no need for God, there is no God. Some of them argue that "theistic evolution" is not true evolution, because evolution doesn't need any further explanation of the existence of a god. The majority of the scientific community simply says that evolution stands by itself, without either proving or disproving God, and that God is not part of the equation at all.
 
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TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#55
The creation discussion is a difficult one to have. People hold very firmly to what they think they know and refuse to even consider another point of view. Meh.
I have in the past and will continue to consider other points of view. If they are scientific, I will test the science and either accept them or denounce them on the basis of that science. If they are not scientific, I will consider them and either accept or deny them according to my own beliefs.

The problem is when people present points of view that are purely faith-based, and expect them to stand up to science. That's where I have a problem.
 
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rainacorn

Guest
#56
I have in the past and will continue to consider other points of view. If they are scientific, I will test the science and either accept them or denounce them on the basis of that science. If they are not scientific, I will consider them and either accept or deny them according to my own beliefs.

The problem is when people present points of view that are purely faith-based, and expect them to stand up to science. That's where I have a problem.
Yeah you should have a problem. It's apples and oranges.

There is a certain amount of harmony that can be found between faith and science, but to expect them to provide equally valid arguments based on the same set of criteria is just stupid.
 
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MissCris

Guest
#57
I've just read and re-read Genesis 1 and 2, and this is a thought that occurred to me:

Genesis 2 is a more detailed account of God's creation in the six days of Genesis 1.

Genesis 2:4-"This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created." Not after they were created, and not "this is what happened next".

Also, Genesis 2 starts out "Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array."

Why would it say that, that the heavens and the earth were completed, if they weren't? If God was just going to re-create the animals for Adam? That idea has never made any sense to me, and having read more carefully, I feel it's certain that God DIDN'T re-create anything- it was already there, and Genesis 2 is just giving us the details.

Genesis 1:27- "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them."

If God created them male AND female on the 6th day, then why would he need to then re-create a helper for Adam in Genesis 2? He wouldn't, and he didn't. Genesis 2:18-22 is just explaining why God created both male and female.

As for Gen. 2:19, where God supposedly created animals then and there for Adam, I think that if read in context of being an account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, means that God DID simply gather the animals and bring them to Adam. Again, why re-create something that is already there?

This is so clear to me now that I can't believe I didn't understand it before. It happens all the time, that a person will say that "such and such just happened", only to then go on to EXPLAIN what happened with all the hows and whys.
 
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MissCris

Guest
#58
Oh...I didn't even see the other posts since my last one about my sister...well, what I said is still valid anyway, as far as I still firmly believe that Genesis 1 and 2 can both be taken literally. I've just realized why that can be, is all.
 
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TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#59
Genesis 1:27- "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them."

If God created them male AND female on the 6th day, then why would he need to then re-create a helper for Adam in Genesis 2? He wouldn't, and he didn't. Genesis 2:18-22 is just explaining why God created both male and female.
Except that if he had already created male and female, then man wouldn't have been alone, so God wouldn't have had to say "it is not good that man is alone."

It seems to me you are twisting Scripture to make it fit your pre-conceived ideas. Scripture in Genesis two does not say that God gathered animals that he had already created. It says that he formed them out of the ground, right then and there, to bring to The Man. The Man was already around when God was forming the animals, according to the story in Genesis 2.

And, as you know, The Man was not around when God was forming the animals, according to the story in Genesis 1.

You are certainly entitled to your interpretation. Your re-telling of the story in Genesis 2 is no better or worse than anyone else's. My issue is not in how you have interpreted Genesis 2, but that you seem to think that it's a literal reading of Genesis 2. It is not. A LITERAL reading of Genesis 2 says that animals were created after man. If you want to interpret that differently, that's fine, but it is not a literal reading of the text.
 
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MissCris

Guest
#60
Except that if he had already created male and female, then man wouldn't have been alone, so God wouldn't have had to say "it is not good that man is alone."

It seems to me you are twisting Scripture to make it fit your pre-conceived ideas. Scripture in Genesis two does not say that God gathered animals that he had already created. It says that he formed them out of the ground, right then and there, to bring to The Man. The Man was already around when God was forming the animals, according to the story in Genesis 2.

And, as you know, The Man was not around when God was forming the animals, according to the story in Genesis 1.

You are certainly entitled to your interpretation. Your re-telling of the story in Genesis 2 is no better or worse than anyone else's. My issue is not in how you have interpreted Genesis 2, but that you seem to think that it's a literal reading of Genesis 2. It is not. A LITERAL reading of Genesis 2 says that animals were created after man. If you want to interpret that differently, that's fine, but it is not a literal reading of the text.
I'm certainly not twisting Scripture by reading Genesis 2 as exactly what it says it is right from verse 4- an account of the heavens and the earth when they were created. I don't HAVE to twist it to make it fit when I read it like that.