No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

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brightfame52 said:
They are condemned for their sins, unbelief is a sin Jn 8:24

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Notice sins plural
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Sin is the result of rejecting God, trading one's own desires for the will of God. Such is more than unbelief. One can doubt which, is a form of unbelief, without actually rejecting the message. The Lord has mercy on ignorance. 1 Tim.1:13

James 1:15
Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Desire conceived is rejection of truth which gives rise to sin. Adam's desire to be like God is not a sin in and of itself but rejecting God's plan for life (don't eat) is what results in the eating which, is the sin. Rejection of truth is evil for it is a rejection of reality and tries to replace reality with a false reality.

Yes, we all have committed many sins but rejecting Christ is singular. No means no, as they say. :)
 
sawdust said:
Sin is the result of rejecting God, trading one's own desires for the will of God. Such is more than unbelief. One can doubt which, is a form of unbelief, without actually rejecting the message. The Lord has mercy on ignorance. 1 Tim.1:13

James 1:15
Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Desire conceived is rejection of truth which gives rise to sin. Adam's desire to be like God is not a sin in and of itself but rejecting God's plan for life (don't eat) is what results in the eating which, is the sin. Rejection of truth is evil for it is a rejection of reality and tries to replace reality with a false reality.

Yes, we all have committed many sins but rejecting Christ is singular. No means no, as they say. :)
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They are condemned for their sins plural
 
sawdust said:
They are condemned for not believing in Jesus.
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They are condemned for their sins Plural, unbelief is only one sin, singular, they die in sins plural Jn 8:24

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
 
brightfame52 said:
They are condemned for their sins Plural, unbelief is only one sin, singular, they die in sins plural Jn 8:24

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
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They are condemned for not believing in Jesus. The scripture is plain.

They die in the multitude of their sins but that is not the reason, that is the consequence of not believing.

What condemned them to their sins? Not believing. It really is simple English mate.
 
sawdust said:
They are condemned for not believing in Jesus. The scripture is plain.
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They are condemned for their sins, plural, not just for unbelief singular.

And Jesus says some don't believe in Him because they are not His Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
 
brightfame52 said:
They are condemned for their sins, plural, not just for unbelief singular.

And Jesus says some don't believe in Him because they are not His Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
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So once again they are condemned on the basis of not believing (singular). Sins (plural) are not even mentioned here.

Do you like making my arguments for me? ;):ROFL:
 
sawdust said:
So once again they are condemned on the basis of not believing (singular). Sins (plural) are not even mentioned here.

Do you like making my arguments for me? ;):ROFL:
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What about Jn8:24

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Sins plural
 
brightfame52 said:
What about Jn8:24

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Sins plural
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What about it?

They are dying in their sins plural because ...?????
a. they have multiple sins?
b. they don't believe in Christ Jesus?

This ain't rocket science mate.

We were all condemned on the basis of Adam's sin even before we committed any of our own sins. We remain in that condemnation because we don't believe not because we have racked up a pile of sins after the fact.
 
lrs68 said:
Why are you not just answering the question but dancing around singing I did this and that?
You generally always agree with Cameron and I've talked about world and meaning at least 30 times. So either you were agreeing to his definition or something else he posted. It's not like I can know the specifics. But what I do know is you don't want to answer did Jesus die for the entire world meaning all people. That much is evident to everyone reading.
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Jesus died for the whole world, but the Father is the one who chooses by granting repentance to those who will fill the Son's spiritual body. The Father can choose anyone from everyone. Through the portal called the Holy Spirit, The Father resides in the Son, and the Son resides in us. When the Son went back to the Father to get glorified, he was then able to baptize in the name of the Holy Spirit. That means that he was able to fill humans with portals through which both Father and Son can enter the beings indwelled. That is how Jesus is one with the Father, and we are one with both the Father and Jesus. John 10: 30 I and the Father are one. John 17: 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us.
Eph 2: 18 For through him (Jesus Christ) we both (Jews and Gentiles) have access by one Spirit (portal) unto the Father. John 14: 6 ...no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14: 7-11 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also; and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been such a long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? Because Jesus is filled with the Father's Holy Spirit, this is the Father talking directly to Philip through Jesus. John 12:49, John 14:24, John 7: 16
 
sawdust said:
What about it?

They are dying in their sins plural because ...?????
a. they have multiple sins?
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If Christ died for their sins already then those sins have been put away and justice satisfied for them. God won't recharge them back, that is injustice and double jeopardy.
 
sawdust said:
We were all condemned on the basis of Adam's sin even before we committed any of our own sins
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Christ died for the sin of man in Adam, and all their subsequent sins. Are you implying that Christ didn't die for all the sins of them He died for?
 
brightfame52 said:
If Christ died for their sins already then those sins have been put away and justice satisfied for them. God won't recharge them back, that is injustice and double jeopardy.
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You're right which is why people don't go to the lake of fire for their sins, they go because they rejected Christ.
All sin is forgiven in Christ. If a person wants to know that forgiveness then there is only one place to be. Rejecting Christ doesn't get you there.

This is what I have been saying all along. They're condemned (to the lake of fire) because they refuse to believe in Jesus Christ. We were all born condemned to death because of sin, Adam's sin. We didn't need any of our own sins to make us condemned to death. Born dead spiritually to die physically. Christ altered that for those who believe by paying the price of sin. He didn't die to prevent death in this age but to overcome it so we no longer need fear it.

brightfame52 said:
Christ died for the sin of man in Adam, and all their subsequent sins. Are you implying that Christ didn't die for all the sins of them He died for?
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You're the one who is saying they are condemned because of their sins, not me. You should be asking yourself that question.

Again I say, they are not condemned for the multitude of their sins, but for not believing in the Christ. The power of love removed the sin barrier for all. Grace ensures all men have the opportunity to respond to that love of their own free will just as Adam was free, or Christ was free, or all the angels were free to respond to God of their own free will.
 
sawdust said:
You're right which is why people don't go to the lake of fire for their sins, they go because they rejected Christ.
All sin is forgiven in Christ. If a person wants to know that forgiveness then there is only one place to be. Rejecting Christ doesn't get you there.

This is what I have been saying all along. They're condemned (to the lake of fire) because they refuse to believe in Jesus Christ. We were all born condemned to death because of sin, Adam's sin. We didn't need any of our own sins to make us condemned to death. Born dead spiritually to die physically. Christ altered that for those who believe by paying the price of sin. He didn't die to prevent death in this age but to overcome it so we no longer need fear it.



You're the one who is saying they are condemned because of their sins, not me. You should be asking yourself that question.

Again I say, they are not condemned for the multitude of their sins, but for not believing in the Christ. The power of love removed the sin barrier for all. Grace ensures all men have the opportunity to respond to that love of their own free will just as Adam was free, or Christ was free, or all the angels were free to respond to God of their own free will.
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Matt 7: 21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father, who is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity. It seems that these people who are rejected by Christ believed in him, but did not do the will of the Father (which is to love Him first and all others as they loved themselves) and were not known by Christ. You are known by Christ when you are baptized by him with the Holy Spirit so that both the Father and Son can enter the being indwelled in order to know him and fill him with the deep godly love necessary. Read post #550.
 
sawdust said:
You're right which is why people don't go to the lake of fire for their sins, they go because they rejected Christ.
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That's a sin Christ died for, and the rest of their sins. You keep overlooking they die in their sins Plural
 
decipher said:
Matt 7: 21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father, who is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity. It seems that these people who are rejected by Christ believed in him, but did not do the will of the Father (which is to love Him first and all others as they loved themselves) and were not known by Christ. You are known by Christ when you are baptized by him with the Holy Spirit so that both the Father and Son can enter the being indwelled in order to know him and fill him with the deep godly love necessary. Read post #550.
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They believed in their version of the Christ not the real Jesus. If they were true believers, they would have had faith. Faith is the word living and working within for only the word has the power to produce the absolute confidence of faith and it would have produced the Lord's commendation, not rebuke.

Heb.11:1-2
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.
 
brightfame52 said:
That's a sin Christ died for, and the rest of their sins. You keep overlooking they die in their sins Plural
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It is not a sin Christ died for because Christ cannot reject Himself.

2 Timothy 2:13
if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

The only thing I overlook is your persistent error. ;)

Dying in their sins is not what condemns them, that is the result of their condemnation.
 
brightfame52 said:
Christ died for the sins of them He died for, so they cannot die for sins and unbelief is one of their sins
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You hold to a reformed theology whereby Christ only died for the Elect, all of whom are believers so you're point is illogical to start with.

There are two judgments. The first one was for our sins. Christ paid that price, death, spiritual and physical. The second is for our evil. Our evil is rejection of the truth from which our sins come. Believers are evaluated at the seat of Christ to see how well they handled the truth they were given. As an example if you are wrong about Christ only dying for the Elect? You will lose rewards because you handled the truth badly. Unbelievers are judged at the Great White Throne and they have rejected the Central truth who is Christ and in whom all truth is found so they die the second death, the lake of fire.

James 1:15
Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Desire conceived occurs when the truth is rejected. This is evil. Christ cannot die for this rejection of truth because He cannot deny Himself. He is Truth and therefore cannot reject Himself. It is impossible for Him to conceive of Himself to be anyone other than who He is ergo, He cannot stand in our stead on that matter.

2 Timothy 2:13
if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

Please try and think a little deeper on this matter instead of simply handing back to me your worn out phrases. :)
 
brightfame52 said:
Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No man can come here means no man has the ability to come to Christ. That cancels out the myth that man has a freewill,

It also means that no man has the ability to believe on Christ for Salvation. Because Christ equates believing on Him with coming to Him. Jn 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


What about those Jesus says to them Jn 5:40

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Thats answered in Jn 6:44 they simply will not come because they cannot come unless the Power of God draws them and makes them willing

Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

If and when one comes to believe on Christ willingly, the credit goes to Gods Power !
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Yes, even though He calls us we still have free will.
 
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