There's no other ideology that I know of that captures the beliefs and methods of you two. So I think it's appropriate to use the term. Prove me wrong. But perhaps hyper-Calvinism is a better term
Christ’s death and resurrection
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There's no other ideology that I know of that captures the beliefs and methods of you two. So I think it's appropriate to use the term. Prove me wrong. But perhaps hyper-Calvinism is a better term
Brother, you’ve explained your point well, and I respect the thought you’ve put into it. I agree that many of God’s promises include a call to obedience — His Word often gives both command and reward in one breath.
But we also see throughout Scripture that obedience never creates grace; it responds to it. Romans 4:16 (KJV) says, “Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace.” The command tests faith; it doesn’t replace it.
Take your example of forgiveness — Jesus isn’t teaching that our forgiving earns God’s forgiveness, but that a forgiven heart naturally forgives others (Matthew 18:32–35 KJV). The action flows from having already received mercy.
Likewise with baptism — it’s commanded, yes, but always as the act that follows belief (Acts 10:44–48 KJV). The heart believes unto righteousness; the mouth confesses unto salvation (Romans 10:10 KJV).
So yes, God’s Word often includes both command and promise together — but the saving power is always in the grace that faith receives, not in the act itself.
Grace and peace — always in His Word.
Brother, I don’t identify with Calvinism, hyper-Calvinism, or any system of men.
If something I’ve said aligns with Scripture, then it’s biblical — not ideological.
2 Timothy 3:16–17 (KJV) reminds us, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God… that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”
My goal is simple — to keep the focus on the Word, not on labels.
Grace and peace — always in His Word.
Scripture never teaches that water baptism itself forgives sins or has intrinsic power to remit them.
The only “remission” (forgiveness) of sins comes through the blood of Christ, not through the water of baptism.
Brother, with respect, Scripture never says that the water of baptism itself remits sin. Forgiveness comes only through the shed blood of Christ.
Ephesians 1:7 (KJV) — “In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace.”
1 John 1:7 (KJV) — “The blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”
When Peter said, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins” (Acts 2:38 KJV), the word “for” (eis in Greek) can mean because of or in view of remission — not in order to obtain it. The same construction is used in Matthew 12:41, where people “repented at (eis) the preaching of Jonah.” They didn’t repent to get Jonah’s preaching — they repented because of it.
Peter himself clarifies later in Acts 10:43 (KJV): “That through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.” That happens before baptism, not by it.
So the power to forgive sin is in Christ’s finished work — His death and resurrection — not in any physical act we perform. Baptism is our public confession that we’ve already received that forgiveness through faith in His name.
Grace and peace — always in His Word.
“But we also see throughout Scripture that obedience never creates grace; it responds to it.”
yeah that seems like a reasonable point a totally new one to what we’re talking about but a good point . It doesn’t at all change or address what I was saying and showing there in scripture though .
Gods true saving Grace is already here for everyone in the gospel he sent to all creation promising salvation but like faith it’s trying to teach us to repent and live upright lives because Jesus died for that purpose to redeem us from serving sin to serve the food will of God
“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
Titus 2:11-15 KJV
Gods grace offering salvation is here for everyone free of charge do is faith that saves …..
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
like Paul taught there the grace in the gospel that offers salvation to all teaches us to repent of doing evil and live upright lives while we await the lords return .
So again there’s really no way to remove the teaching to repent and live right our actions are also included . We aren’t waiting for grace to come it’s presented to everyone already in Christ Jesus and the gospel .
“The command tests faith; it doesn’t replace it.”
i haven’t made the arguement that it replaces faith . I’ve made the argument that what God says creates faith in a person who hears him. And that thier duty is to believe and obey him if he’s commanded an action .
“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 KJV
Sometimes he doesn’t call for any action but simply hearing and belief like we hear “ Jesus died for our sins , was buried and rose up again the third day “
theres bo action called for its just God speaking forth seeds for the peoples hearts to hear and believe . Or like John 3:16 Tells us that whoever believes in him will have everlasting life it only calls for belief in him . Ect there’s alot of his word that’s like that it’s informing us but. Ot calling us to do anything just teaching us the truth about God , about ourselves ma kind and who we are meant to be , about his plan for everlasting life in his kingdom ect ect
Other parts of his word adress the spiritual issues we face and the struggles in our hearts like this true information that’s really important
“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: all these evil things come from within, and defile the man.”
Mark 7:21-23 KJV
there’s no action or commandment but there’s knowledge of our struggle that helps us understand how to overcome ect
but then there’s Jesus teaching us what to do and what not to do. I’m in no way talking about Moses words in the law . But talking about Jesus teachings and judgements in the gospel
for instance here is another seed of faith to help someone reconcile Paul’s writing in the Roman’s letter chapter 2
“Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
Luke 6:36-38 KJV
Again you see how important the hearer especially the one who believes in Jesus , you can see how reletive thier actions become because of faith. Paul is actually teaching them not to judge each other when tbey themselves are imperfect sinners commiting the same type of things as the ones they are accusing .
Hesliterally telling them by doing this they are healing uo wrath for themselves in the day of judgement when God will repay all men for thier deeds whether good or evil . And tbat by judging each other for the other guys sin we’re only condemning our own selves for our sins … like Jesus taught in the gospel
my Point is that’s part of Christian faith. To not judge other sinners when we ourselves aren’t perfect but to be merciful and forgiving towards others who aren’t perfect .
“Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:”
Romans 2:1-6 KJV
Our actions should be part of our faith not seperated from it or made to be in ck te ruin with it .
if we learn simple ideas “ I have faith so I don’t need to obey I’m saved amen “ or maybe it’s “ I have faith so I’m going to follow the lord with all my heart and strength and life “
whichever we learn and accept is going to be sort of how we see everything. It’s important to make sure the message is that faith and grace are given to us so we can do our part and not to excuse us from doing our part. The idea is to bring us to obedience not to make obedience irrelevant
at here should be no issue with you bedience and faith working together I think the message is clearly throughout the scripture. If we believe God , and he’s saying “ if you do this thing I’ll remit your sins “ there’s faith to be had and Kaye’s hold of but also we can reject it and look for other ideas
“Scripture never teaches that water baptism itself forgives sins or has intrinsic power to remit them.
The only “remission” (forgiveness) of sins comes through the blood of Christ, not through the water of baptism.”
ahh now we’re at your point .
“”Scripture never teaches that water baptism itself forgives sins”
no one made that argument.
We get baptized in his name because we believe Jesus died for our sins .
What Jesus did
“for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
Matthew 26:28 KJV
What we do because we heard and believe it
“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
Acts 2:38 KJV
your argument seems to be “ Jesus shed his blood therefore baptism has no relevance lol it’s the opposite because of what he did and said we can get baptized into his death for remission of our sins .
“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. …knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Romans 6:3-
That’s explaining what baptism means for those who get baptized in his name for remission of sins . There’s absolutely no argument in tbe bu ke to not get baptized in Jesus name for remission of sins or anything that makes baotism itrelvant because we believe he died and rose it’s the exact opposite because we believe those doctrines have power
But you slightly missed my main point: that obedience is the fruit of faith, not the source of grace.
Brother, I appreciate your sincerity and the Scripture you’ve shared; Titus 2:11–15 KJV is a powerful reminder that grace teaches us to live righteously. I don’t disagree with any of that.
But the key distinction I was making is where grace and faith originate versus what they produce. Grace doesn’t wait for our obedience; grace creates the faith that then leads to obedience. Romans 4:16 (KJV) says, “Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace.” The order matters — grace brings salvation, faith receives it, and obedience follows as its evidence.
Even Titus 2 confirms this: “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us…” — notice, grace appears first, then it teaches. Grace is not the result of our repentance; repentance is the result of grace working in our hearts.
Your examples about living soberly and righteously are absolutely right — those are the marks of a transformed life. But transformation begins with believing the gospel message (Romans 10:17 KJV):
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Faith isn’t born from our actions; our actions are born from faith. Jesus Himself said, “This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent” (John 6:29 KJV).
Obedience and faith are not rivals — they’re companions — but we must keep them in the right order:
- Grace initiates.
- Faith receives.
- Obedience responds.
Grace and peace — always in His Word.
Pilgrimshope that is shifting the focus from cause and effect (grace → faith → obedience) to faith plus an act = remission, but Scripture always keeps the cleansing power in Christ’s blood alone, not the water.
Brother, I hear you and I’m not arguing against baptism at all. I’m emphasizing what Scripture consistently teaches about what baptism represents rather than what it accomplishes by itself.
You said it perfectly: “We get baptized because we believe Jesus died for our sins.” Exactly — faith in His finished work is what brings remission; baptism follows as the outward expression of that faith.
Jesus said, “This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” — Matthew 26:28 KJV
So the remission itself is anchored in His blood — that’s the cause.
Then Peter calls believers to baptism because they’ve received that message and believed:
“Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for (εἰς, eis = because of) the remission of sins.” — Acts 2:38 KJV
The same construction appears in Matthew 12:41 KJV — “They repented at (eis) the preaching of Jonah.” They didn’t repent to get Jonah’s message; they repented because of it.Peter later makes this crystal clear:
“To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.” — Acts 10:43 KJV
That happened before baptism. When Cornelius and his household believed, the Holy Spirit fell on them first — and then they were baptized (Acts 10:44–48 KJV).
Romans 6 beautifully pictures what baptism symbolizes — identification with Christ’s death and resurrection — but it doesn’t teach that the act itself removes sin. The believer is “baptized into Jesus Christ,” not merely into water. It’s union with Christ by faith that frees us from sin (Romans 6:7 KJV).
So baptism is precious, commanded, and symbolic — but its power lies in what it confesses, not in what it causes. We obey because we’ve already been cleansed by His blood (1 John 1:7 KJV).
Grace and peace — always in His Word.
Sadly, yes — it’s needed. There’s been so much confusion and mixed-up theology about baptism that it’s important to keep bringing people back to what Scripture actually says. The goal isn’t to argue, but to clear up the misunderstandings that have crept in and point everyone back to the Word itself.Oh neat, another water baptism thread.
Grace and Peace
But you're not dealing with what the scripture says. You're dealing with what it means. The black and white is easy... there it is. But knowing the nature of the Lord and the Spirit's meaning of what is written requires wisdom. This is not new: Paul had a "message for the mature" that the Corinthians could not receive because of their lack of growth.
Let the children "not go beyond what is written". Their doctrine is for children. But the mature will walk in the meaning of the scriptures. And so what if the children lose some freedom in their walk? Their maturity requires some restraint. But the mature should walk as examples to the young.
It should go something like this:
Immature Believer: "You all need to be baptized in water to be saved to go to heaven!"
Mature Believer: "Then by all means, get baptized with water!"
Immature Believer: "But you have to agree with me!"
Mature Believer: "Run along now and look for water."
We should really deal with the mythology (started by the Anglican Church) that the Bible can be understood through heurmeneutics absent from the Spirit of Understanding.
Thank you for sharing that, brother. I agree that true understanding comes through the Spirit — not mere intellect or systems of interpretation. The natural man “receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God” (1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV), so discernment indeed requires spiritual maturity.
But at the same time, the Spirit never contradicts the written Word He inspired. The same Spirit who gives understanding also anchors us in what is written — not beyond it (1 Corinthians 4:6 KJV). That’s why Paul told Timothy to “hold fast the form of sound words” (2 Timothy 1:13 KJV).
Hermeneutics, when rightly used, simply helps us read what the Spirit already gave — not replace His guidance. The danger today is when “meaning” drifts from what the text actually says. Scripture remains the final authority, and the Spirit illumines, not alters, its meaning.
Grace and peace, always in His Word.
“Understanding Hermeneutics, Eisegesis, and Exegesis — How We Interpret Scripture”
These three terms often come up together in Bible study, but they mean very different things.
1. Hermeneutics
Definition:
The method or science of interpretation — the rules and principles we use to correctly understand Scripture.
Think of it as: The “how” of interpreting the Bible.
Example:
Hermeneutics says: “When interpreting a verse, consider its grammar, context, audience, and harmony with the rest of Scripture.”
So hermeneutics = the framework for proper interpretation.
2. Exegesis
Definition:
The process of drawing out the meaning of the text from its original context. I've covered this in other posts.
The word comes from Greek exēgeisthai — “to lead out.”
Think of it as:
Reading out of the text what the author actually intended.
Example:
Reading Romans 6:4 and concluding:
Exegesis = drawing truth out of Scripture.
3. Eisegesis <--bad
Definition:
The opposite of exegesis. It means reading into the text — inserting your own ideas, opinions, or theology rather than discovering what it actually says.
From Greek eis (“into”) + hēgeisthai (“to lead”).
Think of it as:
Reading into the text what you want it to say.
Example:
Reading 1 Peter 3:21 and claiming,
Here is a Summary Table:
Basically....
Hermeneutics = rules for interpretation
Exegesis = drawing truth out of the text
Eisegesis = pushing your own ideas into the text
Grace and Peace
These three terms often come up together in Bible study, but they mean very different things.
1. Hermeneutics
Definition:
The method or science of interpretation — the rules and principles we use to correctly understand Scripture.
Think of it as: The “how” of interpreting the Bible.
Example:
Hermeneutics says: “When interpreting a verse, consider its grammar, context, audience, and harmony with the rest of Scripture.”
So hermeneutics = the framework for proper interpretation.
2. Exegesis
Definition:
The process of drawing out the meaning of the text from its original context. I've covered this in other posts.
The word comes from Greek exēgeisthai — “to lead out.”
Think of it as:
Reading out of the text what the author actually intended.
Example:
Reading Romans 6:4 and concluding:
“Baptism symbolizes our identification with Christ’s death and resurrection.”
That’s exegesis — you pulled meaning from the text itself.
Exegesis = drawing truth out of Scripture.
3. Eisegesis <--bad
Definition:
The opposite of exegesis. It means reading into the text — inserting your own ideas, opinions, or theology rather than discovering what it actually says.
From Greek eis (“into”) + hēgeisthai (“to lead”).
Think of it as:
Reading into the text what you want it to say.
Example:
Reading 1 Peter 3:21 and claiming,
“Water baptism itself saves you,”
while ignoring the second half of the verse that clarifies it’s “not the putting away of the filth of the flesh.”
That’s eisegesis — forcing an interpretation rather than following what’s written.
Eisegesis = inserting meaning into Scripture.Here is a Summary Table:
Basically....
Hermeneutics = rules for interpretation
Exegesis = drawing truth out of the text
Eisegesis = pushing your own ideas into the text
Grace and Peace
So, if I wrote a letter to my wife and it was examined by the most talented scholars to discern its meaning but my wife says, "No, that's not what he means. He means this..." Would you believe the scholars or my wife?
I believe what the holy spirit witnesses when I read scripture, but it will never go beyond what is written
For example, water baptism is commanded in scripture, was ubiquitously practiced and is said in several places to forgive sins and save. Where in scripture was that ever changed? Many say it's not necessary any more, but on what basis do they make that claim? Without scriptural support it is going beyond what is written.
There are several threads full of scriptural support for why water baptism does not equate to salvation to go to heaven. #shrug