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Depends on whether one views faithfulness and obedience as a means to become and remain saved or whether one views them as a result of salvation.
Obedience before salvation can lead someone to think they earn their salvation. Obedience after salvation can lead to legalism and thinking one earns his own righteousness.One problem with "obedience" is that we tend to think of it in terms pf compliance with law. The Christian life was to be more an active expression of our recognition and application of Christian principles.
Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Here we have an example of going past the limitations of obeying the law.
Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Here we have an example of going past the limitations of obeying the law.
Spot on. We can’t earn our salvation even as the result of having perfect obedience to God’s law because it was never given as a way of earning our salvation, so that has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the law. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of have first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of those works is part of the content of His gift of salvation. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God’s law (Acts 21:20).
Relying on ourselves does not involve relying on any else, so it is contradictory for someone to rely on themselves by obediently relying on God’s law. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to rely on God is by obediently relying on His instructions and it would be contradictory for someone to think that we should rely on God Word made flesh for salvation instead of obediently relying on God’s Word.
We trust in being led of the Holy Spirit and doing works of love.
We are not saved by our works motivated by us to please God.
But we are saved by works of God and if we do not do those works we are not saved.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.
Charity, love in action, works, is greater than faith, and faith works by love, and grace is given through faith.
No love then no faith then no grace then no salvation.
True faith will have the proper perspective of faith that God's kingdom is love so help people with their needs whatever it may be.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
1Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
Love can only be valid if done in works so if you do not have works of love you are not saved.
What does faith mean if you neglect love when love is greater than faith, and faith works by love.
If you do not have love then how can faith be in operation.
1Co 13:5 thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth.
Love does not think an evil thought and allows the Spirit to lead them to abstain from sin hating evil.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
If a person allows the Spirit to lead them and do not want sin they can abstain from sin.
And God will deliver them from temptation.
So there is no excuse.
2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Some people do not allow the Spirit to lead them and love sin more than God.
They say we are saved by faith and they cannot abstain from sin and do not come to the truth.
A person cannot say they are saved by faith and there is no other requirement.
For there is the requirement of having works of love and abstaining from sin to be saved.
And if they do not their faith is no good then no grace then no salvation.
Because they lack love they are not saved.
And it is not a part time thing or once in a while.
We are saved by faith, and not works, when we first come to Christ for that is all we can do.
But when the Spirit works in our life we have to have works of love to be saved.
There is a requirement to have works or you are not saved.
But some people want to drag not saved by works through their Christian walk and in error thinking none of those things have a bearing on salvation.
But they do have a bearing on salvation.
It is like getting an entry level job where you will be taught as you go along which they expect you to improve as time goes on.
But you do not learn and improve anymore than the first day and you been there a month which they will skedaddle you out the door.
Some people think they can confess Christ and say they they have faith but they do not advance to be Christlike but say works does not matter and they cannot abstain from sin so they will never be Christlike.
1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
The love of money is the root of all evil because it neglects the poor and needy, and love is the fulfilling of the law.
Whoever goes by their wants violates this and it is not love.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
We must have the action, works, of righteousness to be in position for salvation.
For if not we are of the devil.
You can confess Christ and say I am saved by faith and nothing else is required but if you do not have the actions, works of righteousness you are not saved.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.
2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
2Co 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.
2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
2Co 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
Jesus said if you do not obey His commandments you do not love Him.
1Sa 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
1Sa 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
If you do not obey it is witchcraft and idolatry for you are asserting your own authority and ways.
Trying to earn our salvation has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of why we should obey God’s law.
Character traits are not earned as the result of our works but rather they are embodied through our works. The only way to attain a character trait is through faith apart from being required to have first done enough works in order to earn it as the result but what it means to attain a character trait is to become a doer of works that embody that trait. For example, the only way for someone to become courageous is through faith apart from works, but it would be contradictory for someone to become courageous apart from becoming a doer of courageous works, and the same is true for righteousness and every other character trait. This is why the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works does not abolish our need to obey God’s law, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:28-31) and why everyone who is a doer of righteous works in obedience to God’s law is righteous even as they are righteous (1 John 3:4-7).
We are instructed not to hate our brother in Leviticus 19:17, so that is in complete compliance with God’s law.
If you were to teach someone what it means to have a particular character trait, then it would be overwhelming to exhaustively teach them how to embody that trait in every possible situation, so a trait is broader then the examples, but the point is to teach them by giving them a limited set of examples or laws that all have that trait in common so that they can extrapolate it. If they correctly understand that trait, then it will lead them to take actions that embody that trait in accordance with the examples that you gave them and they even be able to discern how to embody that trait in situations, but correct understanding that trait will never lead them away from following the laws that gave them and the same is true with the Law of God.
B
Believer08
Guest
That kind of statement often sounds orthodox at first (“we can’t earn salvation”), but subtly slips in the idea that obedience — especially baptism — is a requirement to complete salvation rather than the fruit of it.
Salvation is by faith alone, apart from works
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
— Ephesians 2:8-9
“Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.”
— Romans 4:4
“To him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”
— Romans 4:5
Obedience is never the root of salvation — it is the fruit that follows it.
True obedience comes after saving faith
“We are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
— Ephesians 2:10
“If ye love me, keep my commandments.”
— John 14:15
The keeping of commandments flows from love — love flows from salvation.
The order matters: we are saved first, then we obey.
The pattern in Scripture: belief first, baptism follows
“Then they that gladly received his word were baptized.”
— Acts 2:41
“Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?”
— Acts 10:47
They received the Spirit before baptism — showing baptism is a testimony of faith, not a condition of forgiveness.
Our obedience doesn’t maintain salvation — Christ does
“He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.”
— Philippians 1:6
“And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”
— John 10:28
Faithfulness is evidence of His keeping power — not the means of keeping ourselves.
“Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD.” — Isaiah 1:18 KJV
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.” — Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV
“To him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” — Romans 4:5 KJV
“Then they that gladly received his word were baptized.” — Acts 2:41 KJV
Faith first — obedience follows.
“We love him, because he first loved us.” — 1 John 4:19 KJV
“If ye love me, keep my commandments.” — John 14:15 KJV
“Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.” — Philippians 1:6 KJV
Obedience is the fruit of salvation, not the price of it.
Grace and peace.
B
Believer08
Guest
Ah. Yes..of course @LightBearer316 has to dislike it. Good thing I’ve got you on ignore!! No more blabbering nonsense from you!
It’s all good. I don’t hold anything against you. May the Lord bless you and help us both keep our hearts right as we discuss His Word.
Grace and Peace
Acts 17:11 (KJV):
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
I know a catholic who believes in works=salvation and they are very big on obedience but they believe in earning your salvation and also obedience and works to keep it. it is nott hat obediience is bad but to think it earns or even keeps your salvation is going to lead one down the wrong path. Jesus was obedient to the father in every way and he is our example but he also knew the fleshly weakness of man and that no one can be fully obedient all the time except for him
Obedience is a matter of the heart think deeply on that
Obedience is a matter of the heart think deeply on that
Have you ever gone back and read how the angel spoke to Satan regarding Moses’ body, saying, “The Lord rebuke you”? Even angels appeal to His authority. That name—the name Peter and John spoke of, the name Yeshua/Jesus Christ we are in all creation the only ones that have the right to use it... not even angels possess.
Jesus said “Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.”
Christ behold I give you all power ""Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you" That power means power also means authority. Man is the only one in all creation given that right not even angels have it.
So when people speak about “relying on one’s own self” as though we are heaven-bound simply because we made a choice—as if salvation began with our will alone—that misses the truth. We didn’t find Him. He found us. What was dead, He made alive. He made a new man, a new spirit.
OT: The lord promised "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."
Unless someone only tasted but never truly drank from Christ—saw the works, experienced the gifts of the age to come, yet turned away (Judas comes to mind)—then they were never truly as John said “one of us.”
I stopped debating long ago. He found me when I was about nine years old, and looking back through my life, I can see His hand even when it seemed invisible. We see our past and present, but He sees the future as clearly as the beginning from the our side looking in. What God gives, He does not take back. We can argue, debate, or try to reason it away—but salvation is not a mere invitation or decision card. He created a new spirit within us, and no human being has the power or authority to undo what only God Himself has done. This is what I believe