Acts 2:38 ca not be ignored..

[Thaddaeus]

Thaddeus, you have not been able to convincingly refute what I posted. The Church, not the bible, is the final authority against heresy. NOT THE BIBLE. There was no NT when the passage was written. And there is absolutely NOTHING SINCE THEN WHICH TELLS US THE NT is our final authority. The BIBLE itself does NOT SUPPORT SOLA SCRIPTURA.

That you have such a difficult time understanding this, that you have such a difficult time interpreting christian scripture, serves to emphasize how some people are indoctrinated in a point of view and when presenting with irrefutable evidence of their mistaken interpretation and viewpoint, simply cannot see and read and understand the evidence for what it is.

This is the case with you, Thaddeus. This is the case with fundamentalists at large, Thaddeus. You are so convinced of your unsubstantiated viewpoint, you either ignore or dismiss compelling evidence to the contrary because you are prone to read into anything put before you WHAT YOU WANT TO READ IN TO IT. You are the victim of a narrow, mistaken vision. I am afraid only you alone can break out of your straitjacket and develop beyond your current unchristian doctrine and join the Church of Jesus Christ.

Amen.

sir I said that God was the final authority over all things if you want to argue that and say that the Church has the final authority then go ahead for that is you . and not me , but sir if we put anything over God then that is idolatry, and we should learn from The God inspired Word of God waht happens when someone trys to raise up above God

Isa 14:12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
and you want new testament
Ac 12:21And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them.Ac 12:22And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man.Ac 12:23And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

Listen You say that the Church which actually you mean the leader of the church, the pope, has the final authority, but actually the Church and its leaders came out of the scriptures, we learn how to build a church from scriptures. it is not for an individual interpertation. so if we learn from the scriptures how to build a church and the church learns from scriptures how to be a church, how can the student have authority over the master( teacher )

Eph 5:23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the HEAD OF THE CHURCH: and he is the saviour of the body.
Jesus is my authority, you go under what ever you want to go under sir ,

plus I have shown your heresy from scriptures all you have shown is portions of scriptures to build your false doctrines, Sir I am done with your heresies

Lord I shake the Dust from my shoes of this man, thank You Lord for all these lives that have been sacrificed that we might have a true english Bible, that teaches us the way to restore our fellowship and relationship with You, Thank You for placing Your Son as the head of the Church and the final authority of the Church. I wished there had been another way that I could have earned my way in , But seeing that this was impossible for man, I thank You for providing away for my debt to be paid, through the death of Your own Son, I realize that with everything I could have done to repay my debt, that I would have still came up way short. thank You for Your love, Your patience, and Your longsuffering toward mankind. Father at this time I will confess to all in this forum that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. and this is the name, Jesus Christ that wI pray in at this time, Amen

 

[Dragoon9]

I’d like to look carefully at the scriptures Eric51 posted to diminish the power of scripture. I have found that when we allow the scripture to speak for itself, it speaks clearest. It is by the hearing the message that we gain faith... and the message is heard through the word of Christ (Ro 10:17)

Eric51’s Quotations to discount ‘Solo Scriptura’ #1

1 Cor 11:2 Saint Paul insists on his Apostolic Authority, not on a book: "Now I praise you, brethren, that in all things you are mindful of me and keep my ordinances as I have delivered them to you."

If you read the text, it says nothing of Apostolic Authority. It says to keep his ordinances (often translated as his ‘teachings&#8217. Where did he gain these teachings?

The scripture immediately before the passage you quote says, “Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.” (1 Co 11:1)
The passage immediately after the passage you quote states, “Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ…” (1Co 11:3)

It is Christ we follow, and not any man or even apostle. We only follow the apostle insofar as he follows the example of Christ. Paul in turn bases his thoughts not just on his own opinions, but upon the word of God.

“Do I say this merely from a human point of view? Doesn’t the Law (the Pentateuch, the first 5 Books of our Old Testament) say the same thing? For it is written in the Law of Moses…” (1 Co 9:8-9a)

It is a great comfort to know that the God we serve is not like shifting sand, but remains the same yesterday, today and forever. The same God that spoke through the Law and the Prophets speaks to us through the word made flesh... our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Dragoon9]

Eric51’s Quotations to discount ‘Solo Scriptura’ #2

2nd Thess. 2:15 •"Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle. 2nd Thess 3:6 "And we charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly and not according to the tradition which they have received of us.

Please note that the 1st passage quoted, says “Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle.” An epistle is a letter (esp a formal one). Even in times of the early apostles, the letters of Paul were considered breathed by God and thus ‘scripture’.

His (Paul’s) letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do other Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you already knw this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. But grow in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 3:17-18a)

Similarly, the second passage quoted here (2 Thes 3:6) is followed shortly by this admonition; “And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.” (2 Thess 3:14)

Isn’t this saying quite clearly that we are to be in obedience to these words (within this letter) and not to any man?

Eric, I apologize if this is causing you any upset, but please consider that the very words you have chosen to support your position speak against you. If I have misused any words of scripture, please do me the kindness of pointing that out to me. Yet perhaps you should look to the other scriptures you posted and look at what the scripture around them and related to them have to say. This is Sola Scriptura… allowing the fullness of the Word of God to speak to the words of God.

 

[Dragoon9]

Acts 8:27-35 Saint Phillip asks the Ethiopian Eunuch, "Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest?" and the Eunuch answered, "Howcan I lest someone show me?"

Gotta do this one just for funJ

Absolutely scripture can sometimes be confusing, and mature brethren are great to have around to lead us in our understanding. This is one of the joys of fellowshipping with one another… to have each of us use the gifts God has given us to strengthen and encourage one another, and to ensure that our own views are corrected or rebuked where they have strayed from what is good and Godly.

Yet where does understanding of scripture come from? Is it from years of study in universities or Bible colleges? These certainly did not exist in the time of the early church.

Scripture tells us that, “when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.” (John 16:13-15)

And again that, “We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.” (1 Cor 2:12)

I think these passages make plain that it is not the power of man that reveals the secret things of God… it is God alone who reveals them, through his promised Holy Spirit. What an awesome privilege it is to be privy to the Word of God. What a wonderful, Holy and righteous God we serve!

 

[wisdomseeker]

Gotta do this one just for funJ

Absolutely scripture can sometimes be confusing, and mature brethren are great to have around to lead us in our understanding. This is one of the joys of fellowshipping with one another… to have each of us use the gifts God has given us to strengthen and encourage one another, and to ensure that our own views are corrected or rebuked where they have strayed from what is good and Godly.

Yet where does understanding of scripture come from? Is it from years of study in universities or Bible colleges? These certainly did not exist in the time of the early church.

Scripture tells us that, “when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.” (John 16:13-15)

And again that, “We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.” (1 Cor 2:12)

I think these passages make plain that it is not the power of man that reveals the secret things of God… it is God alone who reveals them, through his promised Holy Spirit. What an awesome privilege it is to be privy to the Word of God. What a wonderful, Holy and righteous God we serve!

Amen brother

Love a friend in god

 

[Thaddaeus]

Gotta do this one just for funJ

Absolutely scripture can sometimes be confusing, and mature brethren are great to have around to lead us in our understanding. This is one of the joys of fellowshipping with one another… to have each of us use the gifts God has given us to strengthen and encourage one another, and to ensure that our own views are corrected or rebuked where they have strayed from what is good and Godly.

Yet where does understanding of scripture come from? Is it from years of study in universities or Bible colleges? These certainly did not exist in the time of the early church.

Scripture tells us that, “when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.” (John 16:13-15)

And again that, “We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.” (1 Cor 2:12)

I think these passages make plain that it is not the power of man that reveals the secret things of God… it is God alone who reveals them, through his promised Holy Spirit. What an awesome privilege it is to be privy to the Word of God. What a wonderful, Holy and righteous God we serve!

amen Great post

 

[eric51]

sir I said that God was the final authority over all things if you want to argue that and say that the Church has the final authority then go ahead for that is you . and not me , but sir if we put anything over God then that is idolatry, and we should learn from The God inspired Word of God waht happens when someone trys to raise up above God

Isa 14:12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
and you want new testament
Ac 12:21And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them.Ac 12:22And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man.Ac 12:23And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

Listen You say that the Church which actually you mean the leader of the church, the pope, has the final authority, but actually the Church and its leaders came out of the scriptures, we learn how to build a church from scriptures. it is not for an individual interpertation. so if we learn from the scriptures how to build a church and the church learns from scriptures how to be a church, how can the student have authority over the master( teacher )

Eph 5:23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the HEAD OF THE CHURCH: and he is the saviour of the body.
Jesus is my authority, you go under what ever you want to go under sir ,

c

Lord I shake the Dust from my shoes of this man, thank You Lord for all these lives that have been sacrificed that we might have a true english Bible, that teaches us the way to restore our fellowship and relationship with You, Thank You for placing Your Son as the head of the Church and the final authority of the Church. I wished there had been another way that I could have earned my way in , But seeing that this was impossible for man, I thank You for providing away for my debt to be paid, through the death of Your own Son, I realize that with everything I could have done to repay my debt, that I would have still came up way short. thank You for Your love, Your patience, and Your longsuffering toward mankind. Father at this time I will confess to all in this forum that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. and this is the name, Jesus Christ that wI pray in at this time, Amen

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Church came out of Scriptures? Which Scripture? NT didn't exist in time of Jesus. Church was established by Jesus from the Apostles. Apostles thru laying on of hands passed their delegated authority onto successors [episkopos, bishops]. NT didn't exist. So much for your "argument".

Matt. 18:17-18 - the Church (not Scripture) is the final authority on questions of the faith. This demands infallibility when teaching the faith. She must be prevented from teaching error in order to lead her members to the fullness of salvation.

Matt. 28:20 - Jesus promises that He will be with the Church always. Jesus' presence in the Church assures infallible teaching on faith and morals. With Jesus present, we can never be deceived.

Matt. 10:20; Luke 12:12 - Jesus tells His apostles it is not they who speak, but the Spirit of their Father speaking through them. If the Spirit is the one speaking and leading the Church, the Church cannot err on matters of faith and morals.

Moreover, Thaddeus, the NT was written by the CHURCH. IT didn't come floating down from heaven. The Church was established by Christ and it is the Vicar [the representative] of Christ on earth.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus said in Aramaic, you are "Kepha" and on this "Kepha" I will build my Church. In Aramaic, "kepha" means a massive stone, and "evna" means little pebble. Some non-Catholics argue that, because the Greek word for rock is "petra", that "Petros" actually means "a small rock", and therefore Jesus was attempting to diminish Peter right after blessing him by calling him a small rock. Not only is this nonsensical in the context of Jesus' blessing of Peter, Jesus was speaking Aramaic and used "Kepha," not "evna." Using Petros to translate Kepha was done simply to reflect the masculine noun of Peter.

Matt. 16:18-19 – to further rebut the Protestant argument that Jesus was speaking about Peter’s confession of faith (not Peter himself) based on the revelation he received, the verses are clear that Jesus, after acknowledging Peter’s receipt of divine revelation, turns the whole discourse to the person of Peter: Blessed are “you” Simon, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to “you,” and I tell “you,” “you” are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church. I will give “you” the keys to the kingdom, and whatever “you” bind and loose on earth will be bound and loosed in heaven. Jesus’ whole discourse relates to the person of Peter, not his confession of faith.

Matt. 16:13 - also, from a geographical perspective, Jesus renames Simon to rock in Caesarea Philippi near a massive rock formation on which Herod built a temple to Caesar. Jesus chose this setting to further emphasize that Peter was indeed the rock on which the Church would be built.

John 14:16 - Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would be with the Church forever. The Spirit prevents the teaching of error on faith and morals. It is guaranteed because the guarantee comes from God Himself who cannot lie.

When I say Church I mean those who hold delegated authority passed on by Jesus to his disciples who further passed it on their successors by laying on of hands. Read your bible!

Acts 1:20 - we see in the early Church that successors are immediately chosen for the apostles' offices. Just as the Church replaced Judas, it also replaced Peter with a successor after Peter's death.

John 21:15-17; Luke 22:31-32 - Jesus' creation of Peter's office as chief shepherd with the keys passed to Linus, Cletus, Clement I, all the way to our current Holy Father.

Matt. 23:2 - this shows that the Jews understood the importance of succession to the chair and its attendant authority. Here, Jesus respects Moses' seat ("cathedra") of authority which was preserved by succession. In the Church, Peter's seat is called the "cathedra," and when Peter's successor speaks officially on a matter of faith or morals, it may rise to the level of an "ex cathedra" (from the chair) teaching.

You claim you only look to God. But you lie, Thaddeus. When you interpret the bible and use an interpretation which is completely at odds at how the Church has interpreted it for 2000 years, you in effect are saying that YOU AS AN INDIVIDUAL SPEAK FOR GOD. Thaddeus, that is HERESY. Worse, it is blasphemy.

I sincerely urge you to reexamine yourself. Reexamine your motives. Pray to God for guidance. Separate yourself from the cult in which you are imprisoned. Liberate and open up your mind to God and His Church.

God Bless. Amen.

 

[Thaddaeus]

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Church came out of Scriptures? Which Scripture? NT didn't exist in time of Jesus. Church was established by Jesus from the Apostles. Apostles thru laying on of hands passed their delegated authority onto successors [episkopos, bishops]. NT didn't exist. So much for your "argument".

Matt. 18:17-18 - the Church (not Scripture) is the final authority on questions of the faith. This demands infallibility when teaching the faith. She must be prevented from teaching error in order to lead her members to the fullness of salvation.

Matt. 28:20 - Jesus promises that He will be with the Church always. Jesus' presence in the Church assures infallible teaching on faith and morals. With Jesus present, we can never be deceived.

Matt. 10:20; Luke 12:12 - Jesus tells His apostles it is not they who speak, but the Spirit of their Father speaking through them. If the Spirit is the one speaking and leading the Church, the Church cannot err on matters of faith and morals.

Moreover, Thaddeus, the NT was written by the CHURCH. IT didn't come floating down from heaven. The Church was established by Christ and it is the Vicar [the representative] of Christ on earth.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus said in Aramaic, you are "Kepha" and on this "Kepha" I will build my Church. In Aramaic, "kepha" means a massive stone, and "evna" means little pebble. Some non-Catholics argue that, because the Greek word for rock is "petra", that "Petros" actually means "a small rock", and therefore Jesus was attempting to diminish Peter right after blessing him by calling him a small rock. Not only is this nonsensical in the context of Jesus' blessing of Peter, Jesus was speaking Aramaic and used "Kepha," not "evna." Using Petros to translate Kepha was done simply to reflect the masculine noun of Peter.

Matt. 16:18-19 – to further rebut the Protestant argument that Jesus was speaking about Peter’s confession of faith (not Peter himself) based on the revelation he received, the verses are clear that Jesus, after acknowledging Peter’s receipt of divine revelation, turns the whole discourse to the person of Peter: Blessed are “you” Simon, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to “you,” and I tell “you,” “you” are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church. I will give “you” the keys to the kingdom, and whatever “you” bind and loose on earth will be bound and loosed in heaven. Jesus’ whole discourse relates to the person of Peter, not his confession of faith.

Matt. 16:13 - also, from a geographical perspective, Jesus renames Simon to rock in Caesarea Philippi near a massive rock formation on which Herod built a temple to Caesar. Jesus chose this setting to further emphasize that Peter was indeed the rock on which the Church would be built.

John 14:16 - Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would be with the Church forever. The Spirit prevents the teaching of error on faith and morals. It is guaranteed because the guarantee comes from God Himself who cannot lie.

When I say Church I mean those who hold delegated authority passed on by Jesus to his disciples who further passed it on their successors by laying on of hands. Read your bible!

Acts 1:20 - we see in the early Church that successors are immediately chosen for the apostles' offices. Just as the Church replaced Judas, it also replaced Peter with a successor after Peter's death.

John 21:15-17; Luke 22:31-32 - Jesus' creation of Peter's office as chief shepherd with the keys passed to Linus, Cletus, Clement I, all the way to our current Holy Father.

Matt. 23:2 - this shows that the Jews understood the importance of succession to the chair and its attendant authority. Here, Jesus respects Moses' seat ("cathedra") of authority which was preserved by succession. In the Church, Peter's seat is called the "cathedra," and when Peter's successor speaks officially on a matter of faith or morals, it may rise to the level of an "ex cathedra" (from the chair) teaching.

You claim you only look to God. But you lie, Thaddeus. When you interpret the bible and use an interpretation which is completely at odds at how the Church has interpreted it for 2000 years, you in effect are saying that YOU AS AN INDIVIDUAL SPEAK FOR GOD. Thaddeus, that is HERESY. Worse, it is blasphemy.

I sincerely urge you to reexamine yourself. Reexamine your motives. Pray to God for guidance. Separate yourself from the cult in which you are imprisoned. Liberate and open up your mind to God and His Church.

God Bless. Amen.

I shook off the dust from my shoes sir

 

[eric51]

Eric51’s Quotations to discount ‘Solo Scriptura’ #2


Please note that the 1st passage quoted, says “Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle.” An epistle is a letter (esp a formal one). Even in times of the early apostles, the letters of Paul were considered breathed by God and thus ‘scripture’.

His (Paul’s) letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do other Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you already knw this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. But grow in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 3:17-18a)

Similarly, the second passage quoted here (2 Thes 3:6) is followed shortly by this admonition; “And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.” (2 Thess 3:14)

Isn’t this saying quite clearly that we are to be in obedience to these words (within this letter) and not to any man?

Eric, I apologize if this is causing you any upset, but please consider that the very words you have chosen to support your position speak against you. If I have misused any words of scripture, please do me the kindness of pointing that out to me. Yet perhaps you should look to the other scriptures you posted and look at what the scripture around them and related to them have to say. This is Sola Scriptura… allowing the fullness of the Word of God to speak to the words of God.

“Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle.” An epistle is a letter (esp a formal one). Even in times of the early apostles, the letters of Paul were considered breathed by God and thus ‘scripture’.

Note the word, "word". Paul is saying oral tradition of the Apostles is equal to written tradition. That is my point. That was Paul's point. And for 2000 years Christianity has held Sacred Tradition of equal authority with scripture and the Church Magisterium [Teaching Authority]. It is called a Triad of Authority.

QUOTE: Isn’t this saying quite clearly that we are to be in obedience to these words (within this letter) and not to any man? No, it is quite clearly saying that we are in obedience to the Sacred Tradition and to the Church which upholds that Tradition and Teaches you by Her Authority.

QUOTE: “Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle.” An epistle is a letter (esp a formal one). Even in times of the early apostles, the letters of Paul were considered breathed by God and thus ‘scripture’." Note the word, "Tradition", capital "T". Which traditions, small "t", are you obdient to, Dragon? Other than the unchristian, man-made traditions of Sola Scriptura, Private Judgment and Faith Alone. Such traditions are NOT SACRED TRADITIONS; they are HERESIES.

What is upsetting me, Dragon, are your heresies. You interpret is based on unchristian doctrines. You have no knowledge of the context or meaning of what you quote. You ignore the authority of the Church of Jesus Christ, and put yourself forward as in effect, Speaking for God. You have neither the knowledge nor the authority to Speak for God. Only His Church, with its clergy consecrated by Holy Orders, have that authority.

My words substantiate what I have said. My quoted passages substantiate what I said. What I have said is consistent with Christian history for 2000 years. What substantiation have you provided, Dragon? What history can you point to, other than the man-made doctrines of your protestant reformers than only go back to the 16th century at the earliest? The heresy of Fundamentalism only goes back to the early 1900s.

Knowledge of Christian history, knowledge of Christian theology, stamps protestantism underfoot.

Amen.

 

[Dragoon9]

You claim you only look to God. But you lie, Thaddeus. When you interpret the bible and use an interpretation which is completely at odds at how the Church has interpreted it for 2000 years, you in effect are saying that YOU AS AN INDIVIDUAL SPEAK FOR GOD. Thaddeus, that is HERESY. Worse, it is blasphemy.

Is it blasphemy to go past the words of men to what the words of God say?

When people point you to scripture Eric, do you hold up the words of man as higher than the word of God? Certainly God has guided his saints in following His way, but God does not change, he is the same yesterday, today and forever. The words of God spoken through men will be in conformity to the words of God in scripture.

When I read the letters of Paul, Peter, John and all the Law, Prophets and Apostles, am I not conforming myself to God? This is not blasphemy or heresy. This is humility before God.

You seem to think that all non-Catholics submit to no authority but their own thinking. This is a fallacy. A true follower of Jesus Christ is always a person under authority, testing everything, submitting to correcting and rebuke so that we might grow more and more into the image of Christ Jesus, who is our Head and Great High Priest.

The correcting, rebuke and authority do not reside in a man though. They reside in God, in His Word, in the speech of mature believers in the Holy Spirit. Reading texts by the early fathers of the church, I do not see disagreement with what they read in scripture... rather I see the miracle that through 2000 years since the time of Christ, the Holy Spirit has continually led those who humble believe in God to the same unity in Jesus.

Might I remind you that this world and the things of this world are not the kingdom of God, but the kingdom of the Prince of Lies. If you build your kingdom upon the words, thoughts, and deeds of this world... then who are you really following?

You earlier mentioned;

Matt. 16:13 - also, from a geographical perspective, Jesus renames Simon to rock in Caesarea Philippi near a massive rock formation on which Herod built a temple to Caesar. Jesus chose this setting to further emphasize that Peter was indeed the rock on which the Church would be built.

Please note, that the temple you refer to was a temple built to honour Caesar... not God.

 

[Dragoon9]

What is upsetting me, Dragon, are your heresies. You interpret is based on unchristian doctrines. You have no knowledge of the context or meaning of what you quote. You ignore the authority of the Church of Jesus Christ, and put yourself forward as in effect, Speaking for God. You have neither the knowledge nor the authority to Speak for God. Only His Church, with its clergy consecrated by Holy Orders, have that authority.

My words substantiate what I have said. My quoted passages substantiate what I said. What I have said is consistent with Christian history for 2000 years. What substantiation have you provided, Dragon? What history can you point to, other than the man-made doctrines of your protestant reformers than only go back to the 16th century at the earliest? The heresy of Fundamentalism only goes back to the early 1900s.

Knowledge of Christian history, knowledge of Christian theology, stamps protestantism underfoot.

Interesting Eric. The only interpretation I have offered is using the text of scripture, and yes, I affirm 100% that the words of scripture are God breathed and speak for God. Please do not add to or twist the words I have said to say otherwise.

I should also point out that I've been talking specifically about the passages you listed, and letting scripture speak to itself. If you would like to add capital 'T's or ignore certain passages to try to argue a point that your church teaches, then that as well is your choice.

If one of the Apostles were to offer me words in contrast to the Word of God, I would do as Paul does to Peter in Galatians 2... I would gently correct and rebuke them, not because I am greater, but because "they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel" (Gal 2:14). Interesting how Paul here rebukes the words and 'oral tradition' of an Apostle when that teaching is contrary to the word of God. Where the Catholic church's teachings are in conformity with the Words of God, then I affirm them wholeheartedly and without reservation. Where they are not, I reject them, not because I am great, but because I can not serve two masters... my Lord is Jesus Christ, not any 'Pope' or other man.

If you have faith in your human led church to lead and guide you, then that is your right. To be honest, I haven't really been posting for you, but for those who may come in to read. I pray to God and trust in Him that all who have read thses posts will discern the spirits at work in each of those who have written here.

Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight.(Pr 3:5-6)

May the Lord of Arbraham and Isaac guide and bless you throughout your days Eric.

 

[eric51]

Is it blasphemy to go past the words of men to what the words of God say?

When people point you to scripture Eric, do you hold up the words of man as higher than the word of God? Certainly God has guided his saints in following His way, but God does not change, he is the same yesterday, today and forever. The words of God spoken through men will be in conformity to the words of God in scripture.

When I read the letters of Paul, Peter, John and all the Law, Prophets and Apostles, am I not conforming myself to God? This is not blasphemy or heresy. This is humility before God.

You seem to think that all non-Catholics submit to no authority but their own thinking. This is a fallacy. A true follower of Jesus Christ is always a person under authority, testing everything, submitting to correcting and rebuke so that we might grow more and more into the image of Christ Jesus, who is our Head and Great High Priest.

The correcting, rebuke and authority do not reside in a man though. They reside in God, in His Word, in the speech of mature believers in the Holy Spirit. Reading texts by the early fathers of the church, I do not see disagreement with what they read in scripture... rather I see the miracle that through 2000 years since the time of Christ, the Holy Spirit has continually led those who humble believe in God to the same unity in Jesus.

Might I remind you that this world and the things of this world are not the kingdom of God, but the kingdom of the Prince of Lies. If you build your kingdom upon the words, thoughts, and deeds of this world... then who are you really following?

You earlier mentioned;


Please note, that the temple you refer to was a temple built to honour Caesar... not God.

Quote: "When I read the letters of Paul, Peter, John and all the Law, Prophets and Apostles, am I not conforming myself to God? This is not blasphemy or heresy. This is humility before God"

Sigh. You still don't get it, even though I write far more simply than many a biblical author. When you read scripture, or any work for that matter, you bring your own preconceptions, limits of knowledge, cultural and personal background, to the fore. How you interpret is largely a product of those factors. The Church which goes back to the time of Jesus and His Apostles, and is infallibly guided by the Holy Spirit, is a far, far, far, more reliable interpretor of Scripture than you. When you espouse your private interpretation of Scripture --- and that is what you have been doing --- you in effect are claiming to SPEAK FOR GOD. That is heresy. That is blasphemy. The Church, and ONLY THE CHURCH, speaks for God. God reveals first and foremost to His Church, NOT TO YOU.

When I, with all my limitations, try to tell you what the Church says about this or that, I am trying to tell you what God has revealed to His Church. I am not speaking for man, I am putting forth in my own inadequate words what the Church has revealed through God.

QUOTE: "You seem to think that all non-Catholics submit to no authority but their own thinking. This is a fallacy. A true follower of Jesus Christ is always a person under authority, testing everything, submitting to correcting and rebuke so that we might grow more and more into the image of Christ Jesus, who is our Head and Great High Priest." When you in effect propagate your own private judgement, your own interpretation of Scripture, you may not be fully conscious of it, but in effect you are rejecting the Authority of God's Church, established by our Redeemer Himself. Again, you may not be conscious of it, but you are doing the same thing, that atheists, new agers are doing, they are claiming that man is the highest authority and therefore they have a right to their own opinion. You, and those like you, do something very similar, you reject the Church's interpretation and embrace your own, because you like the freedom to do so. You are exalting yourself above God's Church, above God Himself.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Eric you fail to understand that as Dragoon said, it is not merely our own opinion. We have God the Holy Spirit as our teacher, we also submit our own opinion to what the bible says, which is a record of God's spoken words. So we cannot be claiming man is the highest authority. This is very different to atheists - they put themself first, and new agers - put themself first, it is all about them. We are all about what God says in the bible, not about ourselves. God's Church encompasses all true believers of all denominations.So when an individual is revealed something by God, then in essence, God IS revealing something to His Church.

 

[Dragoon9]

Hello Eric,

You speak of the limits of knowledge, of cultural factors, of preconceptions... yet strangely (though not truly strange for those who have eyes to see)you are unable to see those in your own church traditions, nor do you seem able to step beyond those things in your own analysis. It is not that I do not understand your point Eric... it is simply that I reject them as extra-scriptural, in other words as either adding or falling short of what scripture clearly says.

I do not wish to launch into any attack on Catholic traditions or teachings, since such things are not beneficial and lead only to discord. Such things are easy enough to find anyway, for those that feel the need.

I shake your dust from my feet.

May the Lord be with you Eric, and give you His peace.

 

[eric51]

Hello Eric,

You speak of the limits of knowledge, of cultural factors, of preconceptions... yet strangely (though not truly strange for those who have eyes to see)you are unable to see those in your own church traditions, nor do you seem able to step beyond those things in your own analysis. It is not that I do not understand your point Eric... it is simply that I reject them as extra-scriptural, in other words as either adding or falling short of what scripture clearly says.

I do not wish to launch into any attack on Catholic traditions or teachings, since such things are not beneficial and lead only to discord. Such things are easy enough to find anyway, for those that feel the need.

I shake your dust from my feet.

May the Lord be with you Eric, and give you His peace.

QUOTE: " It is not that I do not understand your point Eric... it is simply that I reject them as extra-scriptural, in other words as either adding or falling short of what scripture clearly"

Obviously you reject them as extra-scriptural. which is a two-fold error. One, Scripture teaches them. Two, to look first, to look only, at Scripture to validate an authentic christian teaching, is a practice never taught by Christianity. Holy Spirit is with the Church as a Teacher. Your belief in looking to scripture and only scripture, arose with the protestant Reformation [I usely the word, reformation, loosely].

So, I leave you to your vices.

God Bless.

Amen

 

[eric51]

Eric you fail to understand that as Dragoon said, it is not merely our own opinion. We have God the Holy Spirit as our teacher, we also submit our own opinion to what the bible says, which is a record of God's spoken words. So we cannot be claiming man is the highest authority. This is very different to atheists - they put themself first, and new agers - put themself first, it is all about them. We are all about what God says in the bible, not about ourselves. God's Church encompasses all true believers of all denominations.So when an individual is revealed something by God, then in essence, God IS revealing something to His Church.

Nowhere it is taught, nowhere, neither in Scripture, Tradition nor Church, that Holy Spirit teaches doctrine to individuals. Holy Spirit is the Advocate that infallibly teaches the Church on matters of faith and morals.

You claim man is the highest authority because as you just said you believe that you, an individual, is infallibly guided on matters of faith and morals by the Holy Spirit. Jesus, the Apostles and the Church, say otherwise. You trust your own intellect, your own knowledge, above theirs. You are no different than an atheist or new ager. They also disregard any authority on morals, ethics, and look to their own devices.

Yes, you are all about your interpretation of the bible. As I have repeatedly pointed out, trusting in one's ability to interpret the bible, outside of Church Tradition, and looking only to the bible, is a two-fold heresy. One interprets the bible within the Tradition of Church interpretation. One looks to the Church's Teaching Authority, Sacred Tradition and the Bible. All three. You only look to the latter, and you only are willing to interpret it, with your seriously flawed understanding.

Enough said.

God Bless.

Amen.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Nowhere it is taught, nowhere, neither in Scripture, Tradition nor Church, that Holy Spirit teaches doctrine to individuals. Holy Spirit is the Advocate that infallibly teaches the Church on matters of faith and morals.

But Scripture does teach that all believers have the Spirit (Catholic or not). And scripture also teaches that the Spirit is the teacher. Put 1 + 1 together and you get 'The Spirit teaches us". Who are you to say what the Spirit can or cannot, does or does not teach?
As the Psalmist said:

Psa 143:10 Teach me to do thy will; for thou art my God: thy spirit is good; lead me into the land of uprightness.
The Spirit is also refered to as the spirit of widsom, revelation and knowledge, so that our understanding may be increased:
Eph 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him,
Eph 1:18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened


And yet you say the Spirit does not teach faith and morals. The fact is He does. Otherwise Protestants (who have the Spirit) would not be able to worship , know, praise, adore, love, Jesus Christ in Spirit and in truth.

You claim man is the highest authority because as you just said you believe that you, an individual, is infallibly guided on matters of faith and morals by the Holy Spirit.

Gee, I only said that I am guided by God. And God's not big enough to teach us is He? God, according to you, needs your most holy father pope it would seem. Yet you say that makes me the highest authority? No way, it is only God who is the highest authority. That's why I submit to what the Spirit says in matters of faith and morals.

Jesus, the Apostles and the Church, say otherwise. You trust your own intellect, your own knowledge, above theirs. You are no different than an atheist or new ager. They also disregard any authority on morals, ethics, and look to their own devices.

So you don't think the Holy Spirit who dwells within has enough authority to teach on morals and ethics? Ok then, if you don't think the Spirit is God, not my problem.

Yes, you are all about your interpretation of the bible.

Nope, because a), I get my interpretation from what the Spirit teaches me, b) I also learn from others who the Spirit has taught. I believe in God, and yet you say I'm no different than an atheist, who doesn't believe in God. That doesn't make sense.

As I have repeatedly pointed out, trusting in one's ability to interpret the bible, outside of Church Tradition, and looking only to the bible, is a two-fold heresy. One interprets the bible within the Tradition of Church interpretation. One looks to the Church's Teaching Authority, Sacred Tradition and the Bible. All three. You only look to the latter, and you only are willing to interpret it, with your seriously flawed understanding.

Well you're caught up in religion I'm afraid, the bad kind. Have you ever know the Spirit to teach you something? Do you believe you have the Spirit? Do you believe the Spirit is God? Or does only the Pope and your Church have the Spirit ? Do you know God personally or are you just following the teaching of a religious institution?

Are you a natural man or a spiritual man? As the following scriptures say, the Holy Spirit teaches.. we have received the Spirit of God so that we know what God has given us:
1Co 2:12 But we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit from God, so that we might know the things that are freely given to us by God.
1Co 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

And we know that every believer has received the Spirit of God, not just the apostles,




Now God gave the Spirit to teach His people ,through the elders, through the Law:
Neh 9:20 You also gave Your good Spirit to teach them, and did not withhold Your manna from their mouth, and gave them water for their thirst.
But in the new testament, God promised to pour out His Spirit on all flesh (i.e. not just a few select individuals) (Acts 2:17).


Jer 24:7 And I will give them a heart to know Me, that I am Jehovah;
Jer 31:33 but this shall be the covenant that I will cut with the house of Israel: After those days, says Jehovah, I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall no more teach each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah; for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says Jehovah. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sins no more.

Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. And I will remove the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh,
Eze 11:20 so that they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances, and do them. And they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

Pro 1:23 Turn at my warning; behold, I will pour out my Spirit to you; I will make my words known to you.


So we have scriptural support from both old and new testament of the role of the Spirit to teach us. In fact it is God's promise to His people that they all know Him and all taught by Him. And it is also the practical experience of many who have the Spirit which includes all Christians. If you doubt that protestants or anyone else have the Spirit:
1Co 12:3 .......no one can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Hopefully Eric you aren't merely following an institution which you call the Church, but rather you are knowing and being taught by God personally in your day to day life... as God said:

they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says Jehovah. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sins no more.