The A, B, C,s of Faith and faithing.

[studier]

In 1987 at 28 years old i had an experience, I'll just say it was a text book born again experience. The spiritual awakening, the conscious contact with God, and more that i don't share.

Experiencing that, i had this burning desire to know what happened, and how it happened. So i started to listen to every bible teacher i could find. It didn't take long before i ran across a bible teacher that was validating my experience to the tee, the only one!

So i looked into him and found he wasn't just a teacher, but a teachers teacher. Regarded by many to be the greatest bible teacher of our time. Stanford grad, Stanford prop, fluent in teaching all the ancient languages, and had amassed the largest bible collection in private hands behind the Vatican, and that's what he taught from. I was very happy to have this validation by such a prominent teacher.

His name is Dr. Gene Scott. He is where i learned about the A,B,C,s of Faith. and where i learned of the mistranslation of pisteuo, and the words believe, believer, and believing. He graduated in 05, and passed his mantle onto his wife Dr. Dr. Melissa Scott, who in her own right can run circles around any pastor of our time.

It took me about 20 years to know his teaching maybe better than he did, at least concerning Faith and faithing.

He taught that Jesus was the first goer of Faith. Then, their was a second goer, then a third, and so on. I like to think i'm standing on his shoulders to get a better look at Jesus than even he did.

I'll wait studier, to see if this is a problem for you before i spend anymore time discussing Faith and faithing with you.

Satan has done a number online concerning Dr. Scott. i need to know if you can get passed that first.


Jay

Are

I know who he is - or was - and watched him at times. His presentation of himself and his ministry was strange - definitely not the norm. Many pretty ladies about. Always seemed quite brilliant and informative about the Text. A lomg time ago for me.

Thanks for the info.

From there it's just a matter of dealing with the Text. If you use some of Scott's information that I can read online, it might be helpful at times. I mainly deal with the Text and several lexicons and am trained in Greek.

 

[studier]

We can discuss "obedience" after we get a good understanding of Faith and faithing, which we've already begun. Then i'll share the process in which pisteuo (faithing) is applied in what i call the salvation process. All the things that must happen in the salvation journey, and happen in the right order.

If we get a consensus on that, we can then talk about where obedience fits in.
Looking forward to talking with you.

Jay

Your thread. You lead. Request that you take it point-by-point and not too much at a time so we don't get lost in long posts. Also request if you can that you cite any references and provide links so I can look at them.

Salvation is a process, so in a few ways, it may be a good start.

 

[Watchman22]

Your thread. You lead. Request that you take it point-by-point and not too much at a time so we don't get lost in long posts. Also request if you can that you cite any references and provide links so I can look at them.

Salvation is a process, so in a few ways, it may be a good start.

Sorry for the absence, had something come up.

Why don't we start at the beginning, because most Christians don't know what Faith and faithing, pistis and pisteuo is. We've had some agreement , maybe we can solidify it a bit.

"Faith" is our English word for , pistis in the Greek. The English word "Faith" is simple because we have single words to communicate it.
Those words are conviction, reliance upon, credence. Faith is a noun, a thing. We have Faith in many different things each day.

Now we have the corresponding verb to pistis, pisteuo. Pisteuo can't be translated into the English because the English language has no corresponding verb to the noun Faith.

Pisteuo being a verb is an act, based upon a belief, sustained by confidence. We fulfill 100s of these acts , based upon a belief, sustained by confidence all day long.

Here are examples of some of the acts of pisteuo we do every day.

1) When you went to bed last night, did you check to make sure the air in the room was safe to breath?
No, you performed an act of getting into bed, based upon the belief the air was good, sustained by confidence that you would wake up in the morning. And, your life was at risk if the air wasn't sufficient.

2)When you sat in your dinning room chair for supper, did you check to make sure the chair would break when you sat in it?
No, you performed an act, sitting in the chair with all your weight behind it, based upon a belief that the chair was safe, sustained by confidence that it would hold you. And, it it had broke, your life was at risk for injury.

3) When you got in your car, did you check the tires, brakes, make sure there's no gas leaks?
No, you performed an act, got in and started the car, based upon the belief that the car was fine, sustained by the confidence to drive it away. And, if one of those things were not working correctly, your life could have been at risk.

4) When you drove through the intersection in your car on the way to work. you had a green light, but did you make sure that the other guy who had the red light was really stopping and doing what he was supposed to do?
No, you performed an act of driving through the intersection, based upon a belief that everyone else was doing what they were supposed to be doing, sustained by the confidense that you would make it through the intersection safely. And, if any of those people weren't doing what they were supposed to be doing, your life was at risk.

We do 100s of these acts of Faithing all day everyday,. And we don't recognize them in large part because the English language has no word to communicate it. We were created to be faithers.

Now with that foundation laid, lets look at the specific Faithing that is in relation to the living God.

Faith and faithing towards God is the act of a personal surrender to Him, and a life inspired by such surrender, based upon the belief that He will accept the surrendered life, Sustain by the confidense He will keep and protect the surrendered life. This is what saving Faith is.

Do we need to discuss this in more depth, or can we use this to go forward.

Jay

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Faith and faithing towards God is the act of a personal surrender to Him, and a life inspired by such surrender, based upon the belief that He will accept the surrendered life, Sustain by the confidense He will keep and protect the surrendered life. This is what saving Faith is.

Surrender needs to be expanded, or broken down, into practical terms. For example, the pre-eminent command is to love. OK, how do we do that? Practical love is treating others like we want to be treated, not showing partiality, not doing harm to others, seeking peace, forgiving, showing mercy, etc.

 

[Watchman22]

Sorry for the absence, had something come up.

Why don't we start at the beginning, because most Christians don't know what Faith and faithing, pistis and pisteuo is. We've had some agreement , maybe we can solidify it a bit.

"Faith" is our English word for , pistis in the Greek. The English word "Faith" is simple because we have single words to communicate it.
Those words are conviction, reliance upon, credence. Faith is a noun, a thing. We have Faith in many different things each day.

Now we have the corresponding verb to pistis, pisteuo. Pisteuo can't be translated into the English because the English language has no corresponding verb to the noun Faith.

Pisteuo being a verb is an act, based upon a belief, sustained by confidence. We fulfill 100s of these acts , based upon a belief, sustained by confidence all day long.

Here are examples of some of the acts of pisteuo we do every day.

1) When you went to bed last night, did you check to make sure the air in the room was safe to breath?
No, you performed an act of getting into bed, based upon the belief the air was good, sustained by confidence that you would wake up in the morning. And, your life was at risk if the air wasn't sufficient.

2)When you sat in your dinning room chair for supper, did you check to make sure the chair would break when you sat in it?
No, you performed an act, sitting in the chair with all your weight behind it, based upon a belief that the chair was safe, sustained by confidence that it would hold you. And, it it had broke, your life was at risk for injury.

3) When you got in your car, did you check the tires, brakes, make sure there's no gas leaks?
No, you performed an act, got in and started the car, based upon the belief that the car was fine, sustained by the confidence to drive it away. And, if one of those things were not working correctly, your life could have been at risk.

4) When you drove through the intersection in your car on the way to work. you had a green light, but did you make sure that the other guy who had the red light was really stopping and doing what he was supposed to do?
No, you performed an act of driving through the intersection, based upon a belief that everyone else was doing what they were supposed to be doing, sustained by the confidense that you would make it through the intersection safely. And, if any of those people weren't doing what they were supposed to be doing, your life was at risk.

We do 100s of these acts of Faithing all day everyday,. And we don't recognize them in large part because the English language has no word to communicate it. We were created to be faithers.

Now with that foundation laid, lets look at the specific Faithing that is in relation to the living God.

Faith and faithing towards God is the act of a personal surrender to Him, and a life inspired by such surrender, based upon the belief that He will accept the surrendered life, Sustain by the confidense He will keep and protect the surrendered life. This is what saving Faith is.

Do we need to discuss this in more depth, or can we use this to go forward.

Jay

This is first day at bible college information.

 

[studier]

"Faith" is our English word for , pistis in the Greek. The English word "Faith" is simple because we have single words to communicate it.
Those words are conviction, reliance upon, credence. Faith is a noun, a thing. We have Faith in many different things each day.

I'm going to be bringing up questions and making comments. Hopefully this will work for you.

Are you going to be asking us to accept what you say apart from citing any reference materials? You used Vine's and Strong's before. There are plenty of others to look at.

Are you going to be using Scripture to show how what you say assists us with it?

Now we have the corresponding verb to pistis, pisteuo. Pisteuo can't be translated into the English because the English language has no corresponding verb to the noun Faith.

Pisteuo being a verb is an act, based upon a belief, sustained by confidence. We fulfill 100s of these acts , based upon a belief, sustained by confidence all day long.

Same question and comments.

We do 100s of these acts of Faithing all day everyday,. And we don't recognize them in large part because the English language has no word to communicate it. We were created to be faithers.

The concept is understood. But there are plenty of words and phrases in the English language that we use every day and your language "acts of faithing" is trending into closing the gap between things like "acts in belief/trust/confidence" and such. Lexically there's also the meaning of "entrusting" ourselves to someone or something.

Greek Lexicons (I mostly use BDAG to begin but have about 10 + TDNT) have been developed over many years to assist us in translating into English so we don't have to make up words.

Now with that foundation laid, lets look at the specific Faithing that is in relation to the living God.

Faith and faithing towards God is the act of a personal surrender to Him, and a life inspired by such surrender, based upon the belief that He will accept the surrendered life, Sustain by the confidense He will keep and protect the surrendered life. This is what saving Faith is.

With respect, the foundation that's been laid is only what you've proposed for introducing a new word into the English language.

In Vine's we encountered the word "surrender" that already drew some question from @ChristRoseFromTheDead. IMO it should be questioned. It may well be more theological synthesis than actual Greek terminology.

Although I think we could discuss the concept, I don't automatically see "surrender" in the word pisteuo and I don't automatically rely on Bible Dictionaries. I'd have to see the concept from the Text.

There are Greek words - you've mentioned a few of them - that have to do with words like "submission" that are much closer to and can overlap with "surrender".

 

[studier]

This is first day at bible college information.

Depends on the Bible College.

 

[Watchman22]

I'm going to be bringing up questions and making comments. Hopefully this will work for you.

Are you going to be asking us to accept what you say apart from citing any reference materials? You used Vine's and Strong's before. There are plenty of others to look at.

Are you going to be using Scripture to show how what you say assists us with it?



Same question and comments.



The concept is understood. But there are plenty of words and phrases in the English language that we use every day and your language "acts of faithing" is trending into closing the gap between things like "acts in belief/trust/confidence" and such. Lexically there's also the meaning of "entrusting" ourselves to someone or something.

Greek Lexicons (I mostly use BDAG to begin but have about 10 + TDNT) have been developed over many years to assist us in translating into English so we don't have to make up words.



With respect, the foundation that's been laid is only what you've proposed for introducing a new word into the English language.

In Vine's we encountered the word "surrender" that already drew some question from @ChristRoseFromTheDead. IMO it should be questioned. It may well be more theological synthesis than actual Greek terminology.

Although I think we could discuss the concept, I don't automatically see "surrender" in the word pisteuo and I don't automatically rely on Bible Dictionaries. I'd have to see the concept from the Text.

There are Greek words - you've mentioned a few of them - that have to do with words like "submission" that are much closer to and can overlap with "surrender".

Ya, i guess the first hurdle would be if you accept the Vines Greek definition of pisteuo.

You hinted you were ok with it. Are you?

Jay

 

[Watchman22]

Please give me a pass today studier and Christ rose from the dead. i haven't been able to give our discussion my full attention today. lets pick it up if you can tomarrow afternoon, Ohio time. I'll get us back on track.

Thanks Jay

 

[studier]

Ya, i guess the first hurdle would be if you accept the Vines Greek definition of pisteuo.

You hinted you were ok with it. Are you?

Jay

As I said, I don't use Vine's. The question is are you OK with it since you referenced it?

Here's a copy from the online version I linked you to earlier. The copy and paste apparently doesn't like the fonts, so I'll transliterate in bold:

BELIEF, BELIEVE, BELIEVERS A. Verbs.​

1. $ ( ", pisteuō 4100), “to believe,” also “to be persuaded of,” and hence, “to place confidence in, to trust,” signifies, in this sense of the word, reliance upon, not mere credence. It is most frequent in the writings of the apostle John, especially the Gospel. He does not use the noun (see below). For the Lord’s first use of the verb, see 1:50. Of the writers of the Gospels, Matthew uses the verb ten times, Mark ten, Luke nine, John ninety-nine. In Acts 5:14 the present participle of the verb is translated “believers. See COMMIT, INTRUST, TRUST.​

2. (&, peithō 3982), “to persuade,” in the middle and passive voices signifies “to suffer oneself to be persuaded,” e.g., Luke 16:31; Heb. 13:18; it is sometimes translated “believe” in the RV, but not in Acts 17:4, RV, “were persuaded,” and 27:11, “gave (more) heed”; in Acts 28:24, “believed. See AGREE, ASSURE, OBEY, PERSUADE, TRUST, YIELD. Note: For apisteō, the negative of No. 1, and apeitheō, the negative of No. 2, see DISBELIEVE, DISOBEDIENT.​

​

Since "surrender" doesn't show up there, here's Vine's re: Faith:

FAITH​

(& , pistis 4102), primarily, “firm persuasion,” a conviction based upon hearing (akin to peithō, “to persuade”), is used in the NT always of “faith in God or Christ, or things spiritual.”​

The word is used of (a) trust, e.g., Rom. 3:25 [see Note (4) below]; 1 Cor. 2:5; 15:14, 17; 2 Cor. 1:24; Gal. 3:23 [see Note (5) below]; Phil. 1:25; 2:17; 1 Thess. 3:2; 2 Thess. 1:3; 3:2; (b) trust-worthiness, e.g., Matt. 23:23; Rom. 3:3, RV, “the faithfulness of God”; Gal. 5:22 (RV, “faithfulness”); Titus 2:10, “fidelity”; (c) by metonymy, what is believed, the contents of belief, the “faith,” Acts 6:7; 14:22; Gal. 1:23; 3:25 [contrast 3:23, under (a)]; 6:10; Phil. 1:27; 1 Thess. 3:10; Jude 3, 20 (and perhaps 2 Thess. 3:2); (d) a ground for “faith,” an assurance, Acts 17:31 (not as in KJV, marg., “offered faith”); (e) a pledge of fidelity, plighted “faith,” 1 Tim. 5:12.​

The main elements in “faith” in its relation to the invisible God, as distinct from “faith” in man, are especially brought out in the use of this noun and the corresponding verb, $ pisteuō; they are (1) a firm conviction, producing a full acknowledgement of God’s revelation or truth, e.g., 2 Thess. 2:11-12; (2) a personal surrender to Him, John 1:12; (3) a conduct inspired by such surrender, 2 Cor. 5:7. Prominence is given to one or other of these elements according to the context. All this stands in contrast to belief in its purely natural exercise, which consists of an opinion held in good “faith” without necessary reference to its proof. The object of Abraham’s “faith” was not God’s promise (that was the occasion of its exercise); his “faith” rested on God Himself, Rom. 4:17, 20-21. See ASSURANCE, BELIEF, FAITHFULNESS, FIDELITY.​

Notes: (1) In Heb. 10:23, elpis , “hope,” is mistranslated “faith” in the KJV (RV, “hope”). (2) In Acts 6:8 the most authentic mss. have charis , “grace,” RV, for pistis, “faith.” (3) In Rom. 3:3, RV, apistia, is rendered “want of faith,” for KJV, “unbelief” (so translated elsewhere). See UNBELIEF. The verb apisteō in that verse is rendered “were without faith,” RV, for KJV, “did not believe.” (4) In Rom. 3:25, the KJV wrongly links “faith” with “in His blood,” as if “faith” is reposed in the blood (i.e., the death) of Christ; the en is instrumental; “faith” rests in the living Person; hence the RV rightly puts a comma after “through faith,” and renders the next phrase “by His blood,” which is to be connected with “a propitiation.” Christ became a propitiation through His blood (i.e., His death in expiatory sacrifice for sin). (5) In Gal. 3:23, though the article stands before “faith” in the original, “faith” is here to be taken as under (a) above, and as in v. 22, and not as under (c), “the faith”; the article is simply that of renewed mention. (6) For the difference between the teaching of Paul and that of James, on “faith” and works, see : 5 Notes on Galatians by Hogg and Vine, pp. 117-119.​

​

So, Vine says John1:12 speaks of a personal surrender & 2Cor5:7 speaks of a conduct inspired by such surrender.

• How so - how do these verses speak of "surrender"?
  • One of the issues with theological dictionaries - and many lexicons - is that they tend to insert theological conclusions into definitions rather than just defining words.
• Are we mainly concerned with the verb or the noun or both, since Vine says the surrender is related to both?

In answer to your question, there's too much here to simply accept. Do I simply accept "surrender" is stated in the 2 verses Vine references? No. Can you explain why we should accept what Vine says?

You also referenced Strong's Expanded. I don't have a copy and don't see it on open domain online. If you' like to quote what it says on topic, I'm happy to read it.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Please give me a pass today studier and Christ rose from the dead. i haven't been able to give our discussion my full attention today. lets pick it up if you can tomarrow afternoon, Ohio time. I'll get us back on track.

Thanks Jay

A tip for you to save time typing. When addressing someone type the @ sign, then start spelling the person's name and a list of forum members will appear, which you can select and it will be pasted into your post. My name is too long to have to type. Also they will be notified of your post

 

[studier]

Please give me a pass today studier and Christ rose from the dead. i haven't been able to give our discussion my full attention today. lets pick it up if you can tomarrow afternoon, Ohio time. I'll get us back on track.

Thanks Jay

Whenever you're ready. I'll watch as I can.

BTW, I watched a couple of Melissa Scott's videos. Are you watching her or just Gene Scott's older work, or any of it anymore?

 

[Watchman22]

Whenever you're ready. I'll watch as I can.

BTW, I watched a couple of Melissa Scott's videos. Are you watching her or just Gene Scott's older work, or any of it anymore?

I have 2000 hours of his teachings. I know Melissa's teachings, but i don't feed from her. She mandates that if your taught by her you pay her in tithes . I would have to stop other giving to fulfill that mandate. I have no problem with her teaching, i just can't do both so out of respect i don't eat at her table.

Jay

Studier, i've been up front that the foundation of saving Faith and faithing is a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender, as per the Vines definition of Pisteuo.

Could you give me your understanding of what you understand saving Faith and faithing to be?

It will be a few hours before i return, so if you could respond to that question so i have that info when i return.

Thanks Jay

 

[studier]

Studier, i've been up front that the foundation of saving Faith and faithing is a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender, as per the Vines definition of Pisteuo.

Could you give me your understanding of what you understand saving Faith and faithing to be?

Here's the first issue: I was looking forward to seeing where you would go with this surrender concept. @ChristRoseFromTheDead expressed a concern about surrender. Then I asked how Vine is coming up with it, because it is not clearly expressed in the verses he references.

"Surrender" is something that requires discussion because it's not a word I'm used to or that I immediately see in the Greek Text. As you said, Greek is very precise - but English is not. There are Greek words that could get us to surrender, but I don't see it specifically in "pisteuo".

The issue as I see it with what's been done with pistis and pisteuo, is that it's been reduced from its biblical meaning and richness, mostly to fit certain theological systems. So, I'm with you that it needs to be properly understood FROM the Bible. What I've found is that the Word of God does provide definition and explanation to these words which theology has stripped it of.

As you say, pisteuo is active - and biblically it's not just believing something - which is why I told you I understood (and have heard and read) this concept of "faithing".

I'll continue below.

We can discuss "obedience" after we get a good understanding of Faith and faithing, which we've already begun. Then i'll share the process in which pisteuo (faithing) is applied in what i call the salvation process. All the things that must happen in the salvation journey, and happen in the right order.

If we get a consensus on that, we can then talk about where obedience fits in.
Looking forward to talking with you.

I did not take up this modified language of faithing quite some time ago. I instead undertook my own studies from the Greek Text when I came to understand what theologies had done to the concept of having faith or believing and how they had stripped it of definition in order to distance it as much as possible from "works" and thus any semblance of human responsive and cooperative activity.

You stated above that we would discuss obedience later. I wanted to see where you'd go with this. Now, since you've asked me for my understanding, I'll say that the way I read the Text, there's no use in discussing pisteuo or pistis apart from discussing obedience, because there are places in the Text where the 2 are used interchangeably and appositionally (one noun explaining, clarifying, identifying another noun) or descriptively, and where logic requires us to see them inseparably intertwined and functioning simultaneously.

I can show you all of this in the Text. And as we dig deeper we see that genuine faith (terminology from 1&2 Timothy) has other characteristics we can pull from the Text - such as it is continual and meant and developed to be continuous, it endures, works are intrinsic to it, etc.

With this said, I can get close to your and Vine's "surrender" in concept via words that are connected to pistis and pisteuo and associated with it. Whether we speak of yielded to, submissive to, reverently bowing in obeisance to, obedient to, faithful to, genuine faith or faithing - as I said before, we seem to me to be headed to the same or at least to a similar place.

 

[Watchman22]

Here's the first issue: I was looking forward to seeing where you would go with this surrender concept. @ChristRoseFromTheDead expressed a concern about surrender. Then I asked how Vine is coming up with it, because it is not clearly expressed in the verses he references.

"Surrender" is something that requires discussion because it's not a word I'm used to or that I immediately see in the Greek Text. As you said, Greek is very precise - but English is not. There are Greek words that could get us to surrender, but I don't see it specifically in "pisteuo".

The issue as I see it with what's been done with pistis and pisteuo, is that it's been reduced from its biblical meaning and richness, mostly to fit certain theological systems. So, I'm with you that it needs to be properly understood FROM the Bible. What I've found is that the Word of God does provide definition and explanation to these words which theology has stripped it of.

As you say, pisteuo is active - and biblically it's not just believing something - which is why I told you I understood (and have heard and read) this concept of "faithing".

I'll continue below.



I did not take up this modified language of faithing quite some time ago. I instead undertook my own studies from the Greek Text when I came to understand what theologies had done to the concept of having faith or believing and how they had stripped it of definition in order to distance it as much as possible from "works" and thus any semblance of human responsive and cooperative activity.

You stated above that we would discuss obedience later. I wanted to see where you'd go with this. Now, since you've asked me for my understanding, I'll say that the way I read the Text, there's no use in discussing pisteuo or pistis apart from discussing obedience, because there are places in the Text where the 2 are used interchangeably and appositionally (one noun explaining, clarifying, identifying another noun) or descriptively, and where logic requires us to see them inseparably intertwined and functioning simultaneously.

I can show you all of this in the Text. And as we dig deeper we see that genuine faith (terminology from 1&2 Timothy) has other characteristics we can pull from the Text - such as it is continual and meant and developed to be continuous, it endures, works are intrinsic to it, etc.

With this said, I can get close to your and Vine's "surrender" in concept via words that are connected to pistis and pisteuo and associated with it. Whether we speak of yielded to, submissive to, reverently bowing in obeisance to, obedient to, faithful to, genuine faith or faithing - as I said before, we seem to me to be headed to the same or at least to a similar place.

Studier, your a perfect candidate for the teachings of Dr. Scott or Melissa Scott. What your asking me to do is what they do everyday. Since I am not educated or versed in the depth of proof your asking for, i would strongly advise you to give them a serious look. Dr. Scott called himself a Thomas. He spent 50 years proving everything in the bible is true. The only thing he can't prove is the resurrection, and he was still trying when he died. You belong there.

For me, i had an experience that put me on a path to understand what happened and how it happened. Over the last 38 years I've came to that knowledge and feel it's my job to share this with as many as possible. I am limited on how much i can share with you and others. I have to make sure that i leave your free choice to surrender your life in tact without you expecting anything in return. If you expect something in return, that's not a genuine surrender, that's a business deal.

My accountability ends with the information about pisteuo not being able to be translated correctly, that believe, believer , and believing are mistranslations. And, that real NT saving Faith is at its core a continually surrendered life. Everything else, the discussions i do for two reasons, i love to talk about Jesus and the salvation process, and i truly care about your salvation journey.

I will be back on around 6 or 7 tonight to talk more about this and address Christ rose from the dead's question.

Jay

 

[studier]

Studier, your a perfect candidate for the teachings of Dr. Scott or Melissa Scott.

With respect, no, I'm actually not. Maybe 25-30 years ago, but I was lead to go elsewhere and ultimately to be trained mainly in Greek and to redeem the past 20-25 years studying as well as teaching for a large part of them.

I am limited on how much i can share with you and others. I have to make sure that i leave your free choice to surrender your life in tact without you expecting anything in return. If you expect something in return, that's not a genuine surrender, that's a business deal.

As discussed in part, I likely fully understand much of what you mean by a surrendered life, but have to leave some room for you to explain yourself and the terminology you've been taught. I'm comfortable I'm living by choice what you would probably call a surrendered life although I would not use your terminology and I'd be asking you to begin to use the Text to explain yourself.

If you have some specific lesson from Scott you'd like to point me to - openly or privately - I'm happy to take a look at it. You'll have to leave room for me to agree or disagree with him and to explain why.

BTW, I do expect something from God - I expect everything He promises us, expecting Him to be perfectly faithful, and I expect Him to be perfectly righteous and just in evaluating me and all of us.

I would like to have seen you go further and deeper into this. @ChristRoseFromTheDead was right that it is of great interest to me. If you look around this forum you'll see quite a bit of the type of pisteuo and pistis you've been taught to recognize as error. It's very sadly very pervasive in Christendom.

 

[Watchman22]

Surrender needs to be expanded, or broken down, into practical terms. For example, the pre-eminent command is to love. OK, how do we do that? Practical love is treating others like we want to be treated, not showing partiality, not doing harm to others, seeking peace, forgiving, showing mercy, etc.

Ok CRFTD, this is for you and studier,

Important to remember, the English language is not the premise or the datum point for understanding, the Greek language is. So trying to make the English language fit into the Greek won't work.

So the best way I've found to get the exact meaning of Pisteuo, is each time the word pisteuo is used in the Greek, and each time the English word believe, believer, and believing is used, replace it with the correct definition. And that is, "A personal surrender to Him and life inspired by such surrender."

Now, when you do that it may not sound right, like it doesn't work. That's because the English writers fashioned the English text for the English, not the Greek. The exact definition has to be the point of reference for understanding what they were communicating.

Let's look at your questions about love, peace, forgiveness and mercy. We aren't capable of these things. These are the outgrowth of Christ being sealed inside us.

How does that happen? It's a process, the salvation process. That process begins, is maintained, and completed by a genuine fulfillment of pisteuo, "A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. " In this process, when the Grace deposit is sealed into us, it`s Christ's love coming out, it's His forgiveness coming out, it`s His mercy coming out. He is possessing us now, and that possession is either being perfected or melting away like snow. I have a salvation process thread if anyone is interested, and some prayers that helped me.

It all starts, maintains, and is completed with "A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. " That's the correct response to the gift of Grace.

studier.
This is also the case for "Obedience". We are not capable of biblical obedience. Biblical obedience states that if we fail at one commandment, we are guilty of them all. If we think about hate, lust, envy, and so on even for a millisecond, we fail the terms of obedience.

How can we be obedient? The same way we love, forgive, have mercy, by the Lord Jesus Christ possessing our mortal bodies. How can He do that? By responding to the call of the Father with pisteuo, "A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. "

Until pisteuo ( the offered life) is accepted, tested, and sealed, God's word and His promises are not ours yet.

This is a good time for more questions.

Jay

 

[Watchman22]

With respect, no, I'm actually not. Maybe 25-30 years ago, but I was lead to go elsewhere and ultimately to be trained mainly in Greek and to redeem the past 20-25 years studying as well as teaching for a large part of them.



As discussed in part, I likely fully understand much of what you mean by a surrendered life, but have to leave some room for you to explain yourself and the terminology you've been taught. I'm comfortable I'm living by choice what you would probably call a surrendered life although I would not use your terminology and I'd be asking you to begin to use the Text to explain yourself.

If you have some specific lesson from Scott you'd like to point me to - openly or privately - I'm happy to take a look at it. You'll have to leave room for me to agree or disagree with him and to explain why.

BTW, I do expect something from God - I expect everything He promises us, expecting Him to be perfectly faithful, and I expect Him to be perfectly righteous and just in evaluating me and all of us.

I would like to have seen you go further and deeper into this. @ChristRoseFromTheDead was right that it is of great interest to me. If you look around this forum you'll see quite a bit of the type of pisteuo and pistis you've been taught to recognize as error. It's very sadly very pervasive


Studier

They call Dr. Scott the teachers teacher.

I'm happy your living a surrendered life. I'm always reminding myself two things, genuine not perfect, and a half measure will avail nothing. Dr. Scott has a mountain of teaching on faith and faithing, hard to find online.

That expectation you are referencing is all wrapped up in pisteuo. A, B, C,s of Faith and faithing. The "act" of a personal surrender to Him. " Based upon a belief " that God will accept the surrendered life. "Sustained by confidence " that He will keep and protect the surrendered life. All other expectations are the result of the relationship.

Jay

 

[aChristian2]

Surrender needs to be expanded, or broken down, into practical terms. For example, the pre-eminent command is to love. OK, how do we do that? Practical love is treating others like we want to be treated, not showing partiality, not doing harm to others, seeking peace, forgiving, showing mercy, etc.

excellent discussion here on Surrender. If I may put my two sense in, as I feel strongly I am acquiring the t-shirt.

love, yes so important

I think surrender in the verses below concerning Paul. and I believe if one could truly not care for the path, blessings or what lyes ahead, yet rejoicing always.

Surrender

Act 20:23 except that the Holy Spirit witnesses in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions await me.

Act 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither do I count my life dear to myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus Christ, to testify fully the gospel of the grace of God.

powerful, I think to understand my utter and complete desperation for G-D Almighty in JESUS

rejoice in HIS GREATNESS
sing Praises unto HIS Great Name
count my blessings

covet nothing, not my blessing, charity, sorrows, dog, troubles, path that lay ahead

I shall not want
death to self, I always think of baptism, when we rise up out of the water, the self is to die as we live unto G-D'S Spirit, metaphorically drowning the self as we rise anew Surrendering to JESUS.

understanding I am not a super Christian, there was a hard lesson
that I endured, as pride & arrogance is being beaten out of me anew

understand that I am the foolish things of the world
this is easy for me as I truly am, and solidifies my utter need for
JESUS

I think of Cory Ten Booms Sister, the story of her thanking G-D for the lice, they had in the concentration camp, and as my memory serves me, Cory was saying I am not thanking G-D for the lice, later to hear one of the Guards say lets go sexually abuse these women and the other guard said no they have lice.

Trusting G-D

wow,,, Surrender is a Gift and education from G-D and sure it can take on many forms. all in HIS POWER

for me I think of, but somehow feel it mayn't be relevant, yet to me it comes to mind

Mat 16:25 For whoever desires to save his life shall lose it, and whoever desires to lose his life for My sake shall find it.

 

[aChristian2]

excellent discussion here on Surrender. If I may put my two sense in, as I feel strongly I am acquiring the t-shirt.

love, yes so important

I think surrender in the verses below concerning Paul. and I believe if one could truly not care for the path, blessings or what lyes ahead, yet rejoicing always.

Surrender

Act 20:23 except that the Holy Spirit witnesses in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions await me.

Act 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither do I count my life dear to myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus Christ, to testify fully the gospel of the grace of God.

powerful, I think to understand my utter and complete desperation for G-D Almighty in JESUS

rejoice in HIS GREATNESS
sing Praises unto HIS Great Name
count my blessings

covet nothing, not my blessing, charity, sorrows, dog, troubles, path that lay ahead

I shall not want
death to self, I always think of baptism, when we rise up out of the water, the self is to die as we live unto G-D'S Spirit, metaphorically drowning the self as we rise anew Surrendering to JESUS.

understanding I am not a super Christian, there was a hard lesson
that I endured, as pride & arrogance is being beaten out of me anew

understand that I am the foolish things of the world
this is easy for me as I truly am, and solidifies my utter need for
JESUS

I think of Cory Ten Booms Sister, the story of her thanking G-D for the lice, they had in the concentration camp, and as my memory serves me, Cory was saying I am not thanking G-D for the lice, later to hear one of the Guards say lets go sexually abuse these women and the other guard said no they have lice.

Trusting G-D

wow,,, Surrender is a Gift and education from G-D and sure it can take on many forms. all in HIS POWER

for me I think of, but somehow feel it mayn't be relevant, yet to me it comes to mind

Mat 16:25 For whoever desires to save his life shall lose it, and whoever desires to lose his life for My sake shall find it.

faith for me has landed or is landing

with JESUS Ability & Willingness to Transform me, and Deliver me
to The Father where HE Will Declare my name Before The Father

I had or have had problems with JESUS being able to change my Wicked heart for I have been shown some of the depths of my wicked heart, & His Willingness to Deliver the chief sinner as I am.

Hopefully I am a lot closer to believing this as I once was a few years ago, as I believe G-D revealed to me...

a work in progress I am for certain.

also When JESUS say your faith has made you whole, is penetrating my heart more & more, as this is so beautiful, as I think when every I am in sorrow or turmoil, faith can make me whole... so very beautiful