The A, B, C,s of Faith and faithing.

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Nobody comes to Christ unless the Father calls them.

I guess I'm assuming a basic understanding of Christianity and God's word here.
Should I not assume that?

Or , if your testing my spirit, that's perfectly ok.

JAY

You put the word called in quotes. That usually means there is something intended beyond the usual meaning of the word. Since I can't read your mind I asked for clarification

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I keep telling you to remember, this initial surrendered life is "before " we are in Christ. So His Word and the promises therein are not ours yet.

Acts 2:38 says that forgiveness of sins and the holy spirit are received when we are baptized into the name of Jesus. That seals us into the covenant though which the promises become ours.

 

[studier]

We're not commanded to fulfill pisteuo, we're "called" to fulfill pisteuo.

We're commanded to pisteuo:

ESV 1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, that we believe (pisteuo) in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.

 

[studier]

Your attempting to attach Dr. Scott to me as kind of like a ball in chain. He taught that pisteuo could not be translated into the English. He taught the ABCs of faith. That validated my experience. That was all I needed to stand on his shoulders to get a better look at the first goer.

I'm responding to what I read and understand.

All I've asked of you so far is if you agree with the vines Greek dictionary, that pisteuo or the application of faith to God just as it says, is "A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. " you seemed to agree, but insist that obedience carries the same definition.

I've answered your concern correctly, and would fall in line with what Gene Scott taught.

So let's get out of the weeds and reset.
Do you agree with the Vines definition enough to go onto the salvation journey?

Ps. I never heard Dr. Scott mention the Vines definition of pisteuo once.

Thanks for the last explanation.

I think I've been clear that Vine looks to be reading surrender into 2 verses of Scripture that don't clearly speak of "surrender". So, no, I don't accept Vine's definition.

I've also stated that I don't use Vine's. So, no, my foundation is not Vine's.

To be clear, I've explained that conceptually I'm OK with beginning where you are beginning and would like you to confirm it with Scripture. Vine's is not Scripture.

 

[Watchman22]

Acts 2:38 says that forgiveness of sins and the holy spirit are received when we are baptized into the name of Jesus. That seals us into the covenant though which the promises become ours.

If your referring to water baptism, that could be a part of fulfilling the initial acts of pisteuo. But water baptism by itself will avail nothing.

The word baptized, baptizo in the Greek is only used once. And in context, repentance was required first, then the act of faith(ceremonial washing) then being baptized into Christ. I can see the surrendered life in that text. Theres also the possibility that Acts 2:38 was part of Gods first fruit offering as in Pentecost. But that's not us now.

Remember, pisteuo (A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender) was repeated 248 times. When God repeats Himself, pay extra attention. DGS.

Jay

 

[Watchman22]

We're commanded to pisteuo:

ESV 1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, that we believe (pisteuo) in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.

"Commandment " entole in the Greek. Defined as an, "authoritive prescription ".
Believe, a mistranslation of pisteuo.

So this is how it reads in the Greek.
1 John 3:23 ,"and this is His authoritive prescription, that you personally surrender your lives to Him and live a life inspired by such surrender in the name of the Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as He authoritively prescribed us.

No problem here, the authoritve prescription is what the Op is discussing.


Jay

 

[Watchman22]

I'm responding to what I read and understand.



Thanks for the last explanation.

I think I've been clear that Vine looks to be reading surrender into 2 verses of Scripture that don't clearly speak of "surrender". So, no, I don't accept Vine's definition.

I've also stated that I don't use Vine's. So, no, my foundation is not Vine's.

To be clear, I've explained that conceptually I'm OK with beginning where you are beginning and would like you to confirm it with Scripture. Vine's is not Scripture.

So I guess we can throw out the Greek dictionaries.

Thanks for telling me you don't accept the Vines definition of pisteuo, it's a lot of work to post the application of it into the salvation process.

If you have a change of heart let me know.

Jay

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

So this is how it reads in the Greek.
1 John 3:23 ,"and this is His authoritive prescription, that you personally surrender your lives to Him and live a life inspired by such surrender in the name of the Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as He authoritively prescribed us.

This is not faith. We "surrender" our lives in, or through, faith. But it's really not surrending; it's putting the old man to death and walking according to the new man.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

"Commandment " entole in the Greek. Defined as an, "authoritive prescription ".

That's Strong's definition. Not a very good one IMO.

ἐντολή, -ῆς, ἡ, (ἐντέλλω or ἐντέλλομαι, q. v.), fr. Pind. and Hdt. down; Sept. often for מִצוָה, in the Pss. the plur. ἐντολαί also for פִקוּדִים; an order, command, charge, precept;
Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament

ἐντολή , ῆς f commandment; command, order; instruction
A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament

1953 ἐντολή (entolē), ῆς (ēs), ἡ (hē): n.fem.; ≡ DBLHebr 5184; Str 1785; TDNT 2.545—LN 33.330 commandment, regulation, an order (Mt 5:19; Mk 10:19; Lk 15:29; Jn 13:34; Ac 17:15; Ro 7:8; 1Co 14:37; Eph 2:15; Col 4:10; Tit 1:14; 2Pe 2:21)
Dictionary of Biblical Languages With Semantic Domains: Greek (New Testament)

 

[studier]

"Commandment " entole in the Greek. Defined as an, "authoritive prescription ".
Believe, a mistranslation of pisteuo.

So this is how it reads in the Greek.
1 John 3:23 ,"and this is His authoritive prescription, that you personally surrender your lives to Him and live a life inspired by such surrender in the name of the Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as He authoritively prescribed us.

No problem here, the authoritve prescription is what the Op is discussing.


Jay

Entole is defined that way by whom? Please cite your references.

Is an "authoritative prescription" a command?

So, since God commands pisteuo - if/when we pisteuo, have we also simultaneously obeyed God's command?

Here's a definition of entole and the Lexicon it's from. It's lengthy so I'm just posting the main definitions and not all the subpoints that elaborate re: "command" and commandment.

Bauer-Danker, Greek-English Lexicon of the NT (BDAG)

[BDAG] ἐντολή
• ἐντολή, ῆς, ἡ (s. ἐντέλλω; Pind., Hdt.+; also Mel., P. 7, 48; 48, 343)

1. an order authorizing a specific action, writ, warrant, perh. J 11:57 e;vντολὰς διδόναι ἵνα, as OGI 441, 59 [81 BC]).

2. a mandate or ordinance, command

What you posted is not how it reads in the Greek. What you posted is your paraphrased opinion of what it says in the Greek.

 

[studier]

So I guess we can throw out the Greek dictionaries.

Thanks for telling me you don't accept the Vines definition of pisteuo, it's a lot of work to post the application of it into the salvation process.

If you have a change of heart let me know.

You mean one dictionary? Have you provided any other quotes or citations to other references we can read that agree with Vine's.

Have you explained the verses Vine's references to Scriptures he bases his statement about "surrender" on?

As I'm now understanding you, this isn't Scott's teaching but yours?

 

[studier]

That's Strong's definition. Not a very good one IMO.

Thanks for identifying this.

I have a digitized version of Strong's put together by a guy years ago before all the online versions were available. I'm not checking those online ones, but here's the one I have resident which shows "commandment" as a proper translation, which most translators seem to have agreed with. I've never had or heard a disagreement with this:

G-1785. entole, en-tol-ay';

from G-1781; injunction, i.e. an authoritative prescription:--commandment, precept.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Thanks for identifying this.

More precisely, it appears to be from Mickelson's Concordance which is an updated Strong's

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

This is from the Enhanced Strong's Lexicon

1785 ἐντολή [entole /en·tol·ay/] n f. From 1781; TDNT 2:545; TDNTA 234; GK 1953; 71 occurrences; AV translates as “commandment” 69 times, and “precept” twice. 1 an order, command, charge, precept, injunction. 1A that which is prescribed to one by reason of his office. 2 a commandment. 2A a prescribed rule in accordance with which a thing is done. 2A1 a precept relating to lineage, of the Mosaic precept concerning the priesthood. 2A2 ethically used of the commandments in the Mosaic law or Jewish tradition.
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon

 

[studier]

More precisely, it appears to be from Mickelson's Concordance which is an updated Strong's

Thanks for the assist.

 

[studier]

This is from the Enhanced Strong's Lexicon

1785 ἐντολή [entole /en·tol·ay/] n f. From 1781; TDNT 2:545; TDNTA 234; GK 1953; 71 occurrences; AV translates as “commandment” 69 times, and “precept” twice. 1 an order, command, charge, precept, injunction. 1A that which is prescribed to one by reason of his office. 2 a commandment. 2A a prescribed rule in accordance with which a thing is done. 2A1 a precept relating to lineage, of the Mosaic precept concerning the priesthood. 2A2 ethically used of the commandments in the Mosaic law or Jewish tradition.
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon

Thanks again.

It would be nice to see everyone post their references or at least link us to them.

 

[Karlon]

Sorry Karlon,
I've never heard of him before.

he's famous for praising the Lord 10 times & saying, "what you confess is what you possess". also for adopting a Christian lesson for every letter of the alphabet. he would say, "vitamin A: "A-lways causes us to triumph through Jesus Christ, our Lord". vitamin B: "B-lessed with all spatial blessings in heavenly places in Christ Jesus".

 

[Watchman22]

You mean one dictionary? Have you provided any other quotes or citations to other references we can read that agree with Vine's.

Have you explained the verses Vine's references to Scriptures he bases his statement about "surrender" on?

As I'm now understanding you, this isn't Scott's teaching but yours?

I've shared with you my greatest treasure. I hope at some point it will be of help to you both.

I know we're all called out ones by our desire to know Him better, i hope we can agree on that.

I've been up front with you how I received the Grace deposit, I sill have no idea how you've received yours or if you have. So I've gone as far as I feel comfortable.

May God bless you.

Jay
.

 

[studier]

I've shared with you my greatest treasure. I hope at some point it will be of help to you both.

I know we're all called out ones by our desire to know Him better, i hope we can agree on that.

I've been up front with you how I received the Grace deposit, I sill have no idea how you've received yours or if you have. So I've gone as far as I feel comfortable.

May God bless you.

Jay
.

Understood.

 

[Watchman22]

Here are more truths on saving faith and faithing.

1) The English language tends to limit faith to the mind, to belief, to the emotions, and confidence or trust. And it leaves the "will" to another word, "obedience". The English biblical texts thus sets free faith from works. The Greek did not allow that. You don't have "faith" (pistis) until you added the will and hung the body in continuing action on what the mind believed and what the heart had confidence in. It was an expression of the whole man.

Jay