The A, B, C,s of Faith and faithing.

[Watchman22]

Read the second half of my first paragraph again. Feel free to ask for clarification on any part of it.

Part of the biblical definition of pisteuo and genuine pistis is obeying God. That's a start and an important one - to pisteuo as God commands - for example, to believe in the name of God's Son Jesus Christ as God commands - then add the second command in 1John3:23 - to obey God's command to love one another as Jesus Christ commanded.

From there we can begin adding other words and explanations to pisteuo FROM Scripture in order to allow God to define and explain pisteuo and pistis comprehensively.

For example, there's another thread in process re: loss of salvation. Part of the fairly contentious discussion at the moment (and the topic is most always contentious) is whether or not endurance is part of faith. I would assume you think you need to remain surrendered no matter what happens in your life and if you fail long the way, then you return to that surrendered state. So, does your surrender need to last? Or do you never fail?

If faith and faithing stops, everything stops. Not all at once, like melting snow. And that's only after He accepts and seals His spirit in the surrendered life.

Before the surrendered life is accepted 3 out of the 4 soils will fail. Those3 failed soils can keep responding as long as the Father is still drawing them.

That would have come out in my salvation process thread, but we didn't get that far.

 

[studier]

If faith and faithing stops, everything stops. Not all at once, like melting snow. And that's only after He accepts and seals His spirit in the surrendered life.

Before the surrendered life is accepted 3 out of the 4 soils will fail. Those3 failed soils can keep responding as long as the Father is still drawing them.

That would have come out in my salvation process thread, but we didn't get that far.

You didn't address the first part of my response.

Questions and comments re: your above quoted statements:

• Are you saying pistis and pisteuo can stop (I assume by human choice) after His accepting and sealing?
• I mentioned this earlier when you mentioned a sequence of things including testing. This same concept as I read you shows up in your second paragraph where you're stating there never was acceptance in the first three soils. Correct?

 

[Watchman22]

You didn't address the first part of my response.

Questions and comments re: your above quoted statements:

• Are you saying pistis and pisteuo can stop (I assume by human choice) after His accepting and sealing?
• I mentioned this earlier when you mentioned a sequence of things including testing. This same concept as I read you shows up in your second paragraph where you're stating there never was acceptance in the first three soils. Correct?

Yes.
Yes, correct.
Can you show me the response again that I didn't address?

 

[Watchman22]

You didn't address the first part of my response.

Questions and comments re: your above quoted statements:

• Are you saying pistis and pisteuo can stop (I assume by human choice) after His accepting and sealing?
• I mentioned this earlier when you mentioned a sequence of things including testing. This same concept as I read you shows up in your second paragraph where you're stating there never was acceptance in the first three soils. Correct?

You haven't been super clear on your understanding of the salvation process concerning pisteuo.

Is your understanding that pisteuo fulfilled is obeying God's word, by believing what His word says about Christ's life and resurrection?
Maybe you can elaborate on that a little?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Is your understanding that pisteuo fulfilled is obeying God's word, by believing what His word says about Christ's life and resurrection?

What is pisteuo fulfilled? Perfected pisteuo?

 

[studier]

You haven't been super clear on your understanding of the salvation process concerning pisteuo.

Is your understanding that pisteuo fulfilled is obeying God's word, by believing what His word says about Christ's life and resurrection?
Maybe you can elaborate on that a little?

You're skipping many of my responses to you and questions for you. I'll assume you're busy and or doing so on purpose. Please don't ask me to go back and get things for you after this.

I directed you here (click for linked post) stated again below and highlighted for you re: pisteuo:

I did not read Vine's, maybe on a few occasions here and there that I recall, nor did I listen to Gene Scott for 2,000 hours, nor did I land on "surrender" as the only word that can be used to define believing in God and believing who Jesus Christ is and willingly submitting to God and His Christ as the Creator and Ruler of all creation, including us.

There are several ways to describe this and "surrender" is not formulaic - it's just another English word among several that are better derived from Greek.

BTW, I've been researching through a lot of material and reviewing Vine's use of the Scriptures he references for his "surrender" wording you're placing so much emphasis on. So, far, and I'm about done, Vine is the only one who uses "surrender" for "pisteuo" and "surrender" is not stated our even easily inferred in the Scriptures he cites. It looks to be his theological insertion and only his out of the numerous lexicons and basic searches I've done through summaries of some prominent scholars.

You're pretty much on your own here unless you can provide some backup. I'm unconvinced I even remotely need to view pisteuo as surrender. I can connect it FROM Scripture to other words close enough for me. If that is not acceptable to you, there's not much I care to look into at this point unless you provide it and it must be in and FROM Scripture apart from your inserting it into translation as Vine clearly seems to have done.

With that said, your 2 answers re: the soils and stopping pisteuo and pistis after sealing are well worth discussing IMO. I'll just use these two Greek words rather than surrender and the made-up English words you're promoting here. I see no validation in using them.

 

[Watchman22]

You're skipping many of my responses to you and questions for you. I'll assume you're busy and or doing so on purpose. Please don't ask me to go back and get things for you after this.

I directed you here (click for linked post) stated again below and highlighted for you re: pisteuo:


BTW, I've been researching through a lot of material and reviewing Vine's use of the Scriptures he references for his "surrender" wording you're placing so much emphasis on. So, far, and I'm about done, Vine is the only one who uses "surrender" for "pisteuo" and "surrender" is not stated our even easily inferred in the Scriptures he cites. It looks to be his theological insertion and only his out of the numerous lexicons and basic searches I've done through summaries of some prominent scholars.

You're pretty much on your own here unless you can provide some backup. I'm unconvinced I even remotely need to view pisteuo as surrender. I can connect it FROM Scripture to other words close enough for me. If that is not acceptable to you, there's not much I care to look into at this point unless you provide it and it must be in and FROM Scripture apart from your inserting it into translation as Vine clearly seems to have done.

With that said, your 2 answers re: the soils and stopping pisteuo and pistis after sealing are well worth discussing IMO. I'll just use these two Greek words rather than surrender and the made-up English words you're promoting here. I see no validation in using them.

If you don't agree with the Vines definition of pisteuo, "A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender," simply reply right here, right now, exactly how you define pisteuo. I'm not trying to be difficult, it's just important to know exactly how you responded to the call of the Father.

 

[studier]

If you don't agree with the Vines definition of pisteuo, "A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender," simply reply right here, right now, exactly how you define pisteuo. I'm not trying to be difficult, it's just important to know exactly how you responded to the call of the Father.

What don't you understand in what I said? Here it is again broken down a bit for you - big picture:

"believing in God...

• I believed in the existence of God. From a very young age I inherently and deep within me knew that He exists and I wondered about and thought that this earth and what I saw in the skies had to come from someone - God - whoever and whatever He is.
  • For decades I didn't think or live like I now know He wills for us, but I somehow had boundaries I wouldn't cross, and I had the inherent sense that this too had to do with Him.

...and believing who Jesus Christ is...

• Through my early years I heard more about God and saw and heard about Jesus Christ and saw depictions of Him hanging on a cross in Roman Catholic churches a few times at a very young age, which I recall being kind of awe inspiring but even at that young age I did not like the Roman Catholic church experience and rebelled against attending.
• In my teen surfing years I had friends that became "Jesus freaks" in the 1960's and would listen to them praise Jesus for the sun on the way to the beach and for the waves once we got there. They were good friends, a bit too exuberant for me, I wasn't against them, but mostly just tolerated them.
• Fast forward again to years later when life had pretty much just crashed for me, another friend presented the Gospel to me and it somehow made sense and I was more receptive to it. Some time not too much later, it all made ultimate sense and I chose to believe what I knew of Him and had a one-sided discussion telling Him so, and asking Him to take over this thing we call "life" because I had come to the point where I could not do it and where I had disgustingly concluded there were no such things as "experts" in this world who could assist.

...and willingly submitting to God and His Christ as the Creator and Ruler of all creation, including us."

• By that time I had read the Bible cover to cover a few times over the years and had some experiences here and there which I'll set aside for now.
• It made zero sense to me that believing God exists and created the universe and had provided written law that made sense to a substantial degree, and... should not be heeded and obeyed.
• I saw clearly that Jesus was God's Son, what He had done for our "salvation," that He said all authority in heaven and on earth was His, and that He too was thus to be obeyed.
• In believing who He is - who God is - I very willingly submitted to His rulership as best I knew how.
• I began a life of reading and studying His Word. I had by this time lost almost all I had worked for during the financial crash in the 1980's. A little more fast forward and I found myself mostly mentally unable to go back to building up a career again. It just made no sense to me to be pursuing what culture and idiots prescribe and it made substantially more sense to me to be studying His Word and praying to Him. He made it possible for me to do this full-time and since then - about 40 years ago, I would just say that I was semi-retired, studying full-time daily, which lead to having my experience of those 1,000's of hours you mentioned - about 3,000 in my case - listening all day for the most part to a contemporary of Dr. Scott's teach from Hebrew and Greek, which lead to seminary to learn those languages, which ended up being mainly Greek, which lead to being ordained as a pastor-teacher, which lead to nearly 2 decades of teaching in home assemblies after refusing to start a church with some friends I was teaching nearing the end of and right after seminary.
• For the past 7 or so years after moving from the place I was last teaching in a home assembly, I'm back in studies, continuing personal spiritual growth and continually ever-more realizing what a process it is though the tests have not been as intense as they were in the early years of growth from infancy, periodically attending this or that group but finding churches to still be a mixed bag that don't make a lot of sense to me and that are teaching a lot of error and emotion if even teaching, doing whatever this online new phenomena stuff is - mostly just doing what He's had me doing for about 4 decades, which is loving His Word and Him above all else.

With that said, if you have any respectful questions, I may try to answer them. If you don't care for my terminology and explanation, with respect I'll point you to Paul for his and my thinking 1Cor4:3. Also, since you skip over many responses to you and do not answer questions, please and especially don't be making any demands of me.

Please also note I above never once used the word "surrender". I have heard others speak of it in sermons or teachings. I understand the concept as I told you very early on. I don't see the word in Scripture and don't see any necessity in using or thinking about it as a normal course. I prefer to do the best I can to stick with biblical terminology though I do recognize the need to paraphrase to explain things.

As for "pisteuo" I've pointed you to some Scripture which you've apparently determined not to address to any substantial degree. If you'd like to look at the verses Vine's references re: his "surrender" terminology, let me know. In fact, why don't you explain them.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

...and willingly submitting to God and His Christ as the Creator and Ruler of all creation, including us."

Please also note I above never once used the word "surrender". I have heard others speak of it in sermons or teachings. I understand the concept as I told you very early on. I don't see the word in Scripture and don't see any necessity in using or thinking about it as a normal course. I prefer to do the best I can to stick with biblical terminology though I do recognize the need to paraphrase to explain things.

I can live with the word surrender when used to describe initially turning our lives over to Christ, which you described as submitting. But it makes no sense that once surrendered to keep surrendering.

After thinking about this, I'm coming to the conclusion that surrender is probably one of the worst words that can be used to describe faith. It speaks to me of almost being the opposite of faith.

Surrender speaks of defeat; it hardly ever has a positive connotation. Some synonyms for surrender: resign, give up, capitulate, relinquish, abandon, concede, part with, renounce, forgo, cede, deliver up

I don't see surrender at all in the champions of faith in Hebrews 11. I see confidence and boldness that conquered evil and made it surrender.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

• In my teen surfing years I had friends that became "Jesus freaks" in the 1960's and would listen to them praise Jesus for the sun on the way to the beach and for the waves once we got there. They were good friends, a bit too exuberant for me, I wasn't against them, but mostly just tolerated them.

I love this. Surfing was one of the things that really spoke to me. Wave sets imbued my spirit with a sense of order and righteousness. One day while sitting on my board waiting for a set I had a sense that something was watching over me. I turned around and said "Who are you?" A couple of years later I knew.

O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea: Isaiah 48:18​

 

[Watchman22]

What don't you understand in what I said? Here it is again broken down a bit for you - big picture:

"believing in God...

• I believed in the existence of God. From a very young age I inherently and deep within me knew that He exists and I wondered about and thought that this earth and what I saw in the skies had to come from someone - God - whoever and whatever He is.
  • For decades I didn't think or live like I now know He wills for us, but I somehow had boundaries I wouldn't cross, and I had the inherent sense that this too had to do with Him.

...and believing who Jesus Christ is...

• Through my early years I heard more about God and saw and heard about Jesus Christ and saw depictions of Him hanging on a cross in Roman Catholic churches a few times at a very young age, which I recall being kind of awe inspiring but even at that young age I did not like the Roman Catholic church experience and rebelled against attending.
• In my teen surfing years I had friends that became "Jesus freaks" in the 1960's and would listen to them praise Jesus for the sun on the way to the beach and for the waves once we got there. They were good friends, a bit too exuberant for me, I wasn't against them, but mostly just tolerated them.
• Fast forward again to years later when life had pretty much just crashed for me, another friend presented the Gospel to me and it somehow made sense and I was more receptive to it. Some time not too much later, it all made ultimate sense and I chose to believe what I knew of Him and had a one-sided discussion telling Him so, and asking Him to take over this thing we call "life" because I had come to the point where I could not do it and where I had disgustingly concluded there were no such things as "experts" in this world who could assist.

...and willingly submitting to God and His Christ as the Creator and Ruler of all creation, including us."

• By that time I had read the Bible cover to cover a few times over the years and had some experiences here and there which I'll set aside for now.
• It made zero sense to me that believing God exists and created the universe and had provided written law that made sense to a substantial degree, and... should not be heeded and obeyed.
• I saw clearly that Jesus was God's Son, what He had done for our "salvation," that He said all authority in heaven and on earth was His, and that He too was thus to be obeyed.
• In believing who He is - who God is - I very willingly submitted to His rulership as best I knew how.
• I began a life of reading and studying His Word. I had by this time lost almost all I had worked for during the financial crash in the 1980's. A little more fast forward and I found myself mostly mentally unable to go back to building up a career again. It just made no sense to me to be pursuing what culture and idiots prescribe and it made substantially more sense to me to be studying His Word and praying to Him. He made it possible for me to do this full-time and since then - about 40 years ago, I would just say that I was semi-retired, studying full-time daily, which lead to having my experience of those 1,000's of hours you mentioned - about 3,000 in my case - listening all day for the most part to a contemporary of Dr. Scott's teach from Hebrew and Greek, which lead to seminary to learn those languages, which ended up being mainly Greek, which lead to being ordained as a pastor-teacher, which lead to nearly 2 decades of teaching in home assemblies after refusing to start a church with some friends I was teaching nearing the end of and right after seminary.
• For the past 7 or so years after moving from the place I was last teaching in a home assembly, I'm back in studies, continuing personal spiritual growth and continually ever-more realizing what a process it is though the tests have not been as intense as they were in the early years of growth from infancy, periodically attending this or that group but finding churches to still be a mixed bag that don't make a lot of sense to me and that are teaching a lot of error and emotion if even teaching, doing whatever this online new phenomena stuff is - mostly just doing what He's had me doing for about 4 decades, which is loving His Word and Him above all else.

With that said, if you have any respectful questions, I may try to answer them. If you don't care for my terminology and explanation, with respect I'll point you to Paul for his and my thinking 1Cor4:3. Also, since you skip over many responses to you and do not answer questions, please and especially don't be making any demands of me.

Please also note I above never once used the word "surrender". I have heard others speak of it in sermons or teachings. I understand the concept as I told you very early on. I don't see the word in Scripture and don't see any necessity in using or thinking about it as a normal course. I prefer to do the best I can to stick with biblical terminology though I do recognize the need to paraphrase to explain things.

As for "pisteuo" I've pointed you to some Scripture which you've apparently determined not to address to any substantial degree. If you'd like to look at the verses Vine's references re: his "surrender" terminology, let me know. In fact, why don't you explain them.

OK,
It wasn't necessary but thanks for taking the time to give your testimony.

I gleaned out of it the word submission.

What did you submit to Him? And at what level of submission are you maintaining the relationship? Elaborate a little.

I know who your talking about ,I think. Is his i initials JC?

 

[studier]

I can live with the word surrender when used to describe initially turning our lives over to Christ, which you described as submitting. But it makes no sense that once surrendered to keep surrendering.

After thinking about this, I'm coming to the conclusion that surrender is probably one of the worst words that can be used to describe faith. It speaks to me of almost being the opposite of faith.

Surrender speaks of defeat; it hardly ever has a positive connotation. Some synonyms for surrender: resign, give up, capitulate, relinquish, abandon, concede, part with, renounce, forgo, cede, deliver up

I don't see surrender at all in the champions of faith in Hebrews 11. I see confidence and boldness that conquered evil and made it surrender.

I'm with you on this (and many other things as the days come and go). And the synonyms are clear. Thanks for posting them. I was near doing so as well.

It's that submission (which I see in Scripture in a few words besides "obedience") where I too was giving some room and time for this "surrender" concept to play out. But it seems more of a personal mantra based upon a single resource that is not backed up by the Scriptures it references.

I still think we can find some commonality but I'm concluded I can't share the necessity of "surrender" that is really not even being explained here - IMO it's more being forced as a go & no-go requirement. With that perspective it's no-go for me.

cc: @Watchman22

 

[studier]

I love this. Surfing was one of the things that really spoke to me. Wave sets imbued my spirit with a sense of order and righteousness. One day while sitting on my board waiting for a set I had a sense that something was watching over me. I turned around and said "Who are you?" A couple of years later I knew.

O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea: Isaiah 48:18​

Nice. Some of my best days in earlier years were in the ocean on beautiful, sunny days in S.CA. Moved to HI a few decades ago - a little too late in life and learned quickly how powerful the ocean is there compared to CA - got humbled a few times even on smaller days in much smaller areas - met Bethany who lost her arm to a shark while we lived there - talked to a few others who had their boards bitten off from underneath them - faced my physical reality and decided those days were pretty much past - left HI some time later.

Fascinating how He reaches and connects with us where we are when we are and let's us go through whatever we need to go through. Astounding really. At some point there are just no more words.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

It's that submission (which I see in Scripture in a few words besides "obedience") where I too was giving some room and time for this "surrender" concept to play out. But it seems more of a personal mantra based upon a single resource that is not backed up by the Scriptures it references.

I still think we can find some commonality but I'm concluded I can't share the necessity of "surrender" that is really not even being explained here - IMO it's more being forced as a go & no-go requirement. With that perspective it's no-go for me.

@Watchman22 you keep quoting Dr. Scott's "A personal surrender to Him, and a life inspired by such surrender " and "an accepted , surrendered life ".

It would be helpful if you could provide us with a video or writing that contains these quotes so that we can examine them within the context of what was said in order to gain a better understanding. I realize that you want to sit as a teacher above us and control the framing and narrative by spoon-feeding us at your pace as we jump through your hoops, but honestly, that ain't gonna happen here.

 

[studier]

OK,
It wasn't necessary but thanks for taking the time to give your testimony.

I gleaned out of it the word submission.

What did you submit to Him? And at what level of submission are you maintaining the relationship? Elaborate a little.

I know who your talking about ,I think. Is his i initials JC?

Sorry. I'm done answering questions for now.

IMO "surrender" and cognates are not very good words to be using for pisteuo and cognates.

My "testimony" was not for purposes of testifying, but to explain to you in part how I "pisteuo" - maybe you can see some comparisons FROM Scripture - maybe you can't.

Did you not see His name in what I wrote?

 

[studier]

@Watchman22 you keep quoting Dr. Scott's "A personal surrender to Him, and a life inspired by such surrender " and "an accepted , surrendered life ".

It would be helpful if you could provide us with a video or writing that contains these quotes so that we can examine them within the context of what was said in order to gain a better understanding. I realize that you want to sit as a teacher above us and control the framing and narrative by spoon-feeding us at your pace as we jump through your hoops, but honestly, that ain't gonna happen here.

I think he said along the way here that his source for "surrender" was mainly Vine's. Maybe he'll clarify.

Have you ever seen Gene Scott? He was pretty interesting albeit also pretty controversial for a few reasons including presentation and persona.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I think he said along the way here that his source for "surrender" was mainly Vine's. Maybe he'll clarify.

Have you ever seen Gene Scott? He was pretty interesting albeit also pretty controversial for a few reasons including presentation and persona.

No, haven't seen him. Those quotes of his are from a fan's website I found

 

[studier]

No, haven't seen him. Those quotes of his are from a fan's website I found

Easy to find on the internet "Dr. Gene Scott" - seems most of his material is owned and handled now by his wife "Pastor Melissa Scott" who took over his ministry and church in Glendale, CA. Quick look seems like much or most of his work is now for sale.

 

[Watchman22]

Sorry. I'm done answering questions for now.

IMO "surrender" and cognates are not very good words to be using for pisteuo and cognates.

My "testimony" was not for purposes of testifying, but to explain to you in part how I "pisteuo" - maybe you can see some comparisons FROM Scripture - maybe you can't.

Did you not see His name in what I wrote?

Studier,
I have no doubt that we're all called out ones here. We're called out to be saints. Saints aren't perfect, they are candidates for perfection.
In those called out ones are those who have been given gifts of teaching, pastors, evangelists and so on. I've known 1 maybe 2 in 38 years.
What is it being perfected? Our Faith and faithing.

We are either being perfected, or doing the perfecting.

For what purpose? To unite the saints.

We're on the same path here being one of the called out ones. So we should try to bridge understandings when possible to have a better chance at that unity.

With that said, I don't have a problem with the word submission. But you have to elaborate on what your submitting to and how you apply said submission.

Are we going to be able to move forward. I only picked up the word submission once yesterday in one of your posts. If there were other times that word was mentioned and I missed it i apologize.

These answers don't need to be in paragraphs, sentences will do.

 

[Watchman22]

Sorry. I'm done answering questions for now.

IMO "surrender" and cognates are not very good words to be using for pisteuo and cognates.

My "testimony" was not for purposes of testifying, but to explain to you in part how I "pisteuo" - maybe you can see some comparisons FROM Scripture - maybe you can't.

Did you not see His name in what I wrote?

No, I saw where you stated contemporary. Is it Joseph Cortez?