Universal Laws of Heavenly Bodies

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Feb 23, 2011
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I too seek the truth PPS I am curious about the authorship of the bible could you help me with a few things?
I don't know. Do you have information questions or challenge questions?

I'm not a wolf like you. I've engaged in so many debates, I generally don't press beyond a certain point and just leave others to their own preferences rather than futily argue a topic into the dirt to see who's tenacious enough to make it out the other side of the slaughter of rhetoric. I reach a point of futility rather quickly and go my way in peace.

Did you read John's link? Have you Googled around for all the variations of degrees/methods of inspiration and compilation during the canonization process?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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yes we do observe them...they are stable points where masses can remain indefinitely

there are 'stationary' asteroids and clouds of interplanetary dust at the langrangian points...and we also send spacecraft there because they are able to stay there without needing to make any corrections that would require extra fuel

but like i said before...we do not observe -any- of those phenomena at the locations where a geocentric model would predict the presence of lagrangian points
thanks....i've looked briefly at SOHO and MDI.
more on this shortly.






two more questions, for anyone:

1) is the functionabilty of the instruments on board ANY of these craft/and the reception and transmission of data from them dependent upon the elimination of external disturbances IN SPACE?

if so, please explain how this is accomplished.

2) is space a total vacuum?
 
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Aug 18, 2011
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I don't know. Do you have information questions or challenge questions?

I'm not a wolf like you. I've engaged in so many debates, I generally don't press beyond a certain point and just leave others to their own preferences rather than futily argue a topic into the dirt to see who's tenacious enough to make it out the other side of the slaughter of rhetoric. I reach a point of futility rather quickly and go my way in peace.

Did you read John's link? Have you Googled around for all the variations of degrees/methods of inspiration and compilation during the canonization process?
My questions are of a challenge nature not informative as you seemed to be fairly learned on the topic I thought I would ask you.
I knew the wolf thing would make some apprehensive so be it!
I am not into lying and I will tell you what I think in an honest fashion!
I didn't see John's post but will look it up when I get home from work.
I was watching a debate between Jimmy Swaggart and Sheik deedat on the authority of the Christian bible. Deedat was the obvious winner of the debate even if you are a Christian you can't deny this.
Obviously we know who is on who's side so my question is this.
How can any Christian Today believe soley upon their bible after it has gone through so many changes?
I realise the reformation years brought in a great resurrgence to the Protestant faith but when the scripture can't be authenticated to any degree of accuracy (due to translations and removal of or adding to the scriptures) Then how can anyone be expected to believe in its entirety as directly coming from God?
 
J

JohnChingford2007

Guest
My questions are of a challenge nature not informative as you seemed to be fairly learned on the topic I thought I would ask you.
I knew the wolf thing would make some apprehensive so be it!
I am not into lying and I will tell you what I think in an honest fashion!
I didn't see John's post but will look it up when I get home from work.
I was watching a debate between Jimmy Swaggart and Sheik deedat on the authority of the Christian bible. Deedat was the obvious winner of the debate even if you are a Christian you can't deny this.
Obviously we know who is on who's side so my question is this.
How can any Christian Today believe soley upon their bible after it has gone through so many changes?
I realise the reformation years brought in a great resurrgence to the Protestant faith but when the scripture can't be authenticated to any degree of accuracy (due to translations and removal of or adding to the scriptures) Then how can anyone be expected to believe in its entirety as directly coming from God?
My post gives the answers to these questions. But, I must warn you, there is a lot to read. As you seem to be going through a crisis of faith (at the moment, specifically in the trustworthiness of the Bible) I encourage you to read EVERYTHING to see how it all pans out, together.

God bless
 
Feb 23, 2011
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My questions are of a challenge nature not informative as you seemed to be fairly learned on the topic I thought I would ask you.
I knew the wolf thing would make some apprehensive so be it!
I am not into lying and I will tell you what I think in an honest fashion!
I didn't see John's post but will look it up when I get home from work.
I was watching a debate between Jimmy Swaggart and Sheik deedat on the authority of the Christian bible. Deedat was the obvious winner of the debate even if you are a Christian you can't deny this.
Obviously we know who is on who's side so my question is this.
How can any Christian Today believe soley upon their bible after it has gone through so many changes?
I realise the reformation years brought in a great resurrgence to the Protestant faith but when the scripture can't be authenticated to any degree of accuracy (due to translations and removal of or adding to the scriptures) Then how can anyone be expected to believe in its entirety as directly coming from God?
The wolf thing doesn't make me apprehensive; I just sense that you can only accept a valid view as one that someone is willing to street-brawl over or participate in a cage match to the death about. I'm more concerned that someone actually thoroughly understands whatever I'm presenting without misrepresenting it or just not "getting it". At some point, I just leave it alone. It would seem you perceive that as weakness of some kind, when it's merely a recognition of futility.

Anyway... I consider this topic to be divided into Higher Criticism and Lower Criticism. Lower Criticism is information-seeking, and is more about general textual criticism and various interpretational differences, etc. Higher Criticism is proof-challenging, and is more about skepticism or outright refutation of authenticity and/or integrity.

Having explored this copiously for myself, I generally don't engage in Higher Criticism discourse. Especially so in this case because of our difference regarding original language texts. I think John's link will suffice to get you to a majority position. I also think it's a vital portion of personal faith.

In the end, if scripture isn't trustworthy as the written record of God's Divine Expression, there's not much faith in any profession regarding it; which is a salvific concern.
 
Aug 18, 2011
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whats your alternative?
careful musk.
I am not sure of an alternative, mine is a quest for truth nothing more and with the global landscape where its at, care and time is something I can Ill afford!
 
Feb 10, 2008
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I really do get all that, and I understand your entire path of reasoning, and it's very sound on a stand-alone basis. It also applies in a general sense to the many capable and well-meaning minions of science and medicine who are toiling away with good intentions and great contributions. I've also perused a reasonable bit of philosophy of science.

Here's the caveat... The ulterior motives and pervasive agenda of those ushering in the Eschaton eclipses certain areas of science and medicine in many ways. I view ALL science and medicine through that "filter" because I have made my life's stewardship to be focused on these types of things by leadership of the Spirit. I don't accept a "status quo" in a sense, but I do recognize such things and weigh them on a relative scale.

For instance, I don't question much in fields like metallurgy or other "hard" sciences; but I closely scrutinize anything that is vulnerable to humanistic agendas for manipulation. Darwinism is a prime example of rejecting the status quo of science. Meaning... I'm not a scientific concordist.

I also don't universally play the "theory card", recognizing that theories aren't merely hypotheses or postulates.

I interact with a small group of Agnostic Cognitive Science grad students regularly, and we have wide-ranging convos about cutting-edge areas of various sciences. The professing Atheists are often quite difficult to converse with, but I seem to be able to generally get them to engage for awhile because I genuinely underdtand their gripes and perceptions about Christian hypocracy and the like.

I just utilize my "filter" to sort through many things. Scientists are/can be at least as closed-minded and indoctrinated as Christians are/can be. And the very foundations of some sciences are tainted in some manner by clandestine agendas.

I seek the Spirit of truth regarding all things. If science is corroborated or refuted, in full or in part, I want truth. God's Word is truth. Scripture doesn't have to address something to speak to my heart through the Spirit.
It seems that the discussion you have struck up with Musk seems more on topic for the "bible discussion forum" so I won't drag this out too much longer. I am just curious as to what you consider "hard" science. Metallurgy itself is not a science. Chemistry and physics are sciences that are used by metallurgists. At their core all science is equally susceptible to close-minded indoctrination.

That said, I wasn't attempting to imply that you were a scientific concordist. Only that the onus of proof falls on those who wish to introduce change. As such, in discussions bound by logic (as both philosophical and theological discussions are) the generally accepted ideas, by their very nature, will continue to be generally accepted until shown to be false.

So, I will try to more clearly split the two aspects of the discussion that I have been trying to address.

1) Is there sufficient scientific/experimental support for the idea that either the planets do not revolve around the sun, or that Earth is not a planet? (ie is the heliocentric view supported by good science?)

2) Is there sufficient biblical support for the idea that the Bible is intended to teach us about the physical/natural laws governing our universe? (ie is there reason to think that the Bible is more than a religious text?)

In logic, an argument can be sound while not true; such is the case with science. Science can be good but not necessarily provide Truth. Through this discussion yourself and several others have claimed that the scientific evidence for heliocentricity is not good science because it doesn't result in Truth. If you wish to argue against the science, you must demonstrate that it is bad science. If you wish to argue that science doesn't necessarily provide Truth, that's a philosophical discussion, not a scientific one like was previously presented. As such, I will abandon attempting to scientifically prove heliocentricity since you are seeking Truth, not scientific proof.

That leaves us with biblical arguments for geocentricity. As I have stated previously, I am under the impression that the majority of christians believe the Bible to be special because of its religious content and descriptions of the supernatural(God); they do not take it as a description of the physical laws that govern our universe. As such, in a philosophical (or in this case theological) discussion the onus falls on the person who wishes to make a claim (ie a person attempting to depart from the generally accepted belief). Your claim is that the generally accepted idea of heliocentricity is wrong and that the Bible should be treated (at least in part) as a scientific text. Thus the onus falls to you. I would be most willing to discuss the theology regarding the Bible as a scientific text if that's what you wish to discuss. I'll even start a new thread if you'd like.

Let me know.
 
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Aug 18, 2011
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The wolf thing doesn't make me apprehensive; I just sense that you can only accept a valid view as one that someone is willing to street-brawl over or participate in a cage match to the death about. I'm more concerned that someone actually thoroughly understands whatever I'm presenting without misrepresenting it or just not "getting it". At some point, I just leave it alone. It would seem you perceive that as weakness of some kind, when it's merely a recognition of futility.

Anyway... I consider this topic to be divided into Higher Criticism and Lower Criticism. Lower Criticism is information-seeking, and is more about general textual criticism and various interpretational differences, etc. Higher Criticism is proof-challenging, and is more about skepticism or outright refutation of authenticity and/or integrity.

Having explored this copiously for myself, I generally don't engage in Higher Criticism discourse. Especially so in this case because of our difference regarding original language texts. I think John's link will suffice to get you to a majority position. I also think it's a vital portion of personal faith.

In the end, if scripture isn't trustworthy as the written record of God's Divine Expression, there's not much faith in any profession regarding it; which is a salvific concern.
Well as it states in 1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things hold fast to that which is good

So if the bible ain't up to any kind of criticism with these words printed in it then it's not worth revereing is it!
I'm not a cage match kinda guy, good at it perhaps, but not my style contrary your assessment of me or my words, if the proofs in the puddin' Show it.

From what I read Jesus could thwart any verbal attack made on him so if you are his follower then it shouldn't be a problem defending the faith in him should it?

Problem I see is that their are many on here who would consider the Muslims brothers (I don't have a problem with this but if the teachings are correct then these are all doomed for lack of faith in Jesus Christ.
If they are correct in their doctrine that Jesus was a great prophet perhaps the greatest (and they do acknowledge him as the son of God) Then the Christian faith is wrong in their belief in him as the messiah. Seeing that the jews and the Muslims share this belief together and seeing that their obvious argument of Authorship is at the core of their argument whether it be Muslim or Jew and seeing the debates for myself it has left me somewhat speechless as to how to defend myself in my faith in Christ as the messiah!
My question is this if Christian belief is the only correct one and with the perpetual interdenominational skirmishes with in Christianity that many devout Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox Christians calling their faith the one true faith it leaves a very unbelievable faith to believe in when their own kind can't even agree on what's right and wrong within their own faith!

After watching the Swaggart/Deedat debate on authorship I am left perplexed by many many points brought up by Deedat which I am sure have been brought up before in other debates throughout history by even those within the faith and I am looking for a strong counter for these arguments.

If their is one thing I cannot stand it's being in a debate and being proved wrong especially when I am firmly grounded in my belief! So I need ammo from a Christian perspective to debunk any Muslim I may debate with in the future.
Lets face it if Swaggart can't hold his own on Stage with a Muslim cleric from South Africa then what chance do I have against one?
 
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JohnChingford2007

Guest
Musk

Did you not see my reply to your post of yesterday? It seems not.

You said:

Thanks John and I agree with you, still doesn't make it any easier to swallow though!
Suppose it is pointless discussing the ifs, coulda, shoulda, woulda, still seems quite ridiculous to build a cosmos and an earth and all that's in it just to watch little humans run around in a grand science experiment to see who will believe and who will not, when as God he coulda just solved the problem with one thought anyway. (destroy Satan and his confederates) and move on to eternity in glory the whole freedom of choice thing is an exercise in futility when Satan and his confederates destruction is the eventual game plan anyway.

Do you see my reasoning here?

My answer was as in the following quote



I do see your reasoning but have to disagree. It is at this point that I always quote

"“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9

We are not God and our minds are finite/limited, so HOW can we (mere mortals) understand perfection. God's ways are perfect, our thinking is NOT! God ALWAYS has a purpose. It would be good for us all to read God's reply to Job in chapters 38-41 and then Job's sudden humility (in response) in chapter 42
 
Aug 18, 2011
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Musk

Did you not see my reply to your post of yesterday? It seems not.

You said:

Thanks John and I agree with you, still doesn't make it any easier to swallow though!
Suppose it is pointless discussing the ifs, coulda, shoulda, woulda, still seems quite ridiculous to build a cosmos and an earth and all that's in it just to watch little humans run around in a grand science experiment to see who will believe and who will not, when as God he coulda just solved the problem with one thought anyway. (destroy Satan and his confederates) and move on to eternity in glory the whole freedom of choice thing is an exercise in futility when Satan and his confederates destruction is the eventual game plan anyway.

Do you see my reasoning here?

My answer was as in the following quote
Umm yeahh...... Well john Job wasn't talking to Jesus and before we go in to the trinitarian debate or anything else some matters of Authenticity have to be discussed!

I am still out on a limb when it comes to authenticity and don't use the faith card because as far as I am concerned that is the oldest copout in the book!
I am not asking for proof of God that isn't even on my Agenda!
Authenticity of scripture is and since we have 1.5 billion muslims and 1.5 billion Christians of varying denominations (all of whom claim sole credibility when it comes to scripture) and another 1 billion Jews We all can't be right and I do not believe God is only gonna save the Protestants who have 24000 different sects among their own sect of Christianity and leave everyone else to the wolves! Furthermore when people of my own faith (myself included until recently) condemn other Christians for their belief it leaves one wondering who is right and who is wrong.
Just seen a debate Swaggart vs Deedat on you tube and old Deedat makes very very very many valid points when it comes to scripture and authenticity of Bibles in general that are printed even today!

If you have proof that the KJV is absolutely positively the one true source bring it forth otherwise the Muslims would seem to have the only authoritative Gentilian scripture out there.
At least theirs doesn't claim to authority under any king apostle or otherwise it does give all the Glory to God.
As well why is Jerusalem divided in 4 and not one or three seems a peculiar quandry to me of the highest order!
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
ummm I only skimmed this thread but How can anyone believe in the BIBLE? that is a question?

because the HOLY SPIRIT Testifies to Its Truth as His Written and Revealed WORDs. it is not just written on PAPER but in the HEART of EVERY child of God.


John 15:26
“But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.


[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKTW-srvr6E[/video]

but hey that's just me.
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
two more questions, for anyone:

1) is the functionabilty of the instruments on board ANY of these craft/and the reception and transmission of data from them dependent upon the elimination of external disturbances IN SPACE?

if so, please explain how this is accomplished.

2) is space a total vacuum?
i don't understand what you are asking in the first question...

for the second question...space is not a perfect vacuum...but it is close... it is close enough to a perfect vacuum that they can assume a perfect vacuum to simplify calculations of trajectories and orbits...and the actual result will not deviate from the calculation by any detectable amount
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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is this a religion? or "science"
what does the language say?

this gnostic charade is a religion to deceive men about the origin of life.

are we to believe there is no agenda? posting today on NASA and its real quest.

let's look at the "science" first (conspiracy stuff gets tin foiled)


"NASA's ORIGINS PROGRAM follows the 15-billion year long chain of events from birth of the Universe at the Big Bang, through the formation of the chemical elements, galaxies, stars, and planets, through the mixing of chemicals and energy that cradles life on Earth, to the earliest self-replicating organisms and the profusion of life."
Cosmic Origins

Program Home Page

In order to understand how the Universe has changed from its initial simple state following the Big Bang into the magnificent Universe we see as we look at the night sky, we must understand how stars, galaxies and planets are formed over time......

......How long did it take the first generations of stars to seed our Universe with the heavy elements we see on Earth today? When in the history of the Universe was there a sufficient supply of heavy elements to allow the formation of prebiotic molecules and terrestrial-like planets upon which those molecules might combine to form life?

Our big question: "How did the universe originate and evolve to produce the galaxies, stars and planets we see today?"

Cosmic Origins - NASA Science
 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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i don't understand what you are asking in the first question...

for the second question...space is not a perfect vacuum...but it is close... it is close enough to a perfect vacuum that they can assume a perfect vacuum to simplify calculations of trajectories and orbits...and the actual result will not deviate from the calculation by any detectable amount
i'll clarify the 1st question after we determine the real answer to the 2nd.

you say "space is not a perfect vacuum"....ok.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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"NASA's ORIGINS PROGRAM follows the 15-billion year long chain of events from birth of the Universe at the Big Bang, through the formation of the chemical elements, galaxies, stars, and planets, through the mixing of chemicals and energy that cradles life on Earth, to the earliest self-replicating organisms and the profusion of life."Cosmic Origins - NASA Science
15 billion years?

WHY is such an unimaginable length of time required for the formation of life, according to these guys?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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wait....what?
what did they say their agenda is?

Our big question: "How did the universe originate and evolve to produce the galaxies, stars and planets we see today?"

Cosmic Origins - NASA Science
this is clearly, unequivocally masquerading as atheism.
evolution.

does anyone disagree that NASA makes it clear its foundational theory is EVOLUTION?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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Cosmic Origins

Program Home Page

In order to understand how the Universe has changed from its initial simple state following the Big Bang into the magnificent Universe we see as we look at the night sky, we must understand how stars, galaxies and planets are formed over time......

......How long did it take the first generations of stars to seed our Universe with the heavy elements we see on Earth today? When in the history of the Universe was there a sufficient supply of heavy elements to allow the formation of prebiotic molecules and terrestrial-like planets upon which those molecules might combine to form life?

Our big question: "How did the universe originate and evolve to produce the galaxies, stars and planets we see today?"

Cosmic Origins - NASA Science
SM98-006/514 On-Orbit Microdynamic Boom ... - SAO/NASA ADS

adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1999ESASP.428..597L
You +1'd this publicly. Undo
by MB Levine - 1999

Origins will use revolutionary new technologies to investigate these questions

~

ok.....so, let's look at NASA's revolutionary new technologies........keep in mind, the goal is prove evolution.
they make it clear.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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IS THIS ON THE MOON?

what do you think?

what happens to tires inflated with air in a "nearly perfect vacuum?" (the story changed when they were busted for this. they claimed they were made of chain metal).
by the time all the lies were adjusted, guess how much APOLLO (APPOLYON) weighed?

does anyone use photoshop? how does that horizon look to you?

oops....wrong thread....sorry....back to the science.......
 
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Laodicea

Guest
wait....what?
what did they say their agenda is?



this is clearly, unequivocally masquerading as atheism.
evolution.

does anyone disagree that NASA makes it clear its foundational theory is EVOLUTION?
That is why they are spending so much money to try to prove life on other planets, to prove evolution. If people would just believe the Bible they wouldn't have to waste so much money doing that.