Universal Laws of Heavenly Bodies

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Feb 23, 2011
1,708
13
0
Pneuma,

Your argument only works if there is a way in hebrew to differentiate between the earth stopping spinning and the sun physically moving. With out a doubt it is God's words, but God's words in human language. English certainly can differentiate between the two, but could hebrew? To make your claim you first must prove that a distinction could have been made. Then prove that the distinction WAS made. Once you have demonstrated this, you then still need to demonstrate that the distinction is SIGNIFICANT.

We are claiming that whether the earth or sun moves is not significant. But for you to prove that it IS in fact significant, you must demonstrate all of the above.
As I understand it, heliocentrists ARE claiming sun/earth movement IS significant. So... It would seem that heliocentrists bear at least the same burden of proof in any/every sense.

I'll take a long hard look at the Hebrew, though. I'm sure sonething will pop, one way or the other.

And BTW... I still haven't really taken a final position. I just see heliocentrism as very vulnerable and not inherent truth by any means at this point. Where are the absolute non-hypothetical proofs for the helio model? I see smoke with no fire.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
No, not at all. In light of my long-term indoctrination, heliocentrism is the only thing that makes logical sense. I've just learned to step aside from all that and seek the mind of Christ and for truth at any cost.

The main thing is... I know how pervasive the deceit is, including its far-reaching influences on science. I don't question some areas of science; but astronomy and cosmology are heavily based on an ascending hypothetical pyramid of conditional hypotheses. Pull out one Jenga block and... CRASH!



See my previous post and let me know if it makes sense to you. :)
see the Tin Foil thread for the Global Warming "science" hoax.

see just how far the "scientists" who live off grants will go.

see the reasons for it, who initiated it and how far along it is.

i challenge ANY scientist reading this to stand by the "theory" of Global Warming.

can't talk about it here, but this is a starter:

“[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The common enemy of humanity is man.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]with the idea that[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] pollution, the threat of global warming, [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill. All these[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]dangers are caused by human intervention, and it is only through[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]changed attitudes and behavior that they can be overcome.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The real enemy then, is humanity itself."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]- Club of Rome[/FONT]
 
K

keshka

Guest
Sorry to wade in here...

Science works by people making observations, and testing them. A true scientist is neutral, and doesn't have any preconceived ideas - he just looks at the evidence and makes logical conclusions.

For example...

Pythagroas had a brilliant theory. He said that, if you draw a perfect square on the three sides of a right-angled triangle, the area of the smaller two squares would exactly equal the area of the largest square. This is called Pythagoras' theroem and is taught in schools everywhere...

And yet, it's technically only a theory. No-one has any proof whatosever that Pythagoras' idea is true of every single triangle. We can't possibly test every single right-angled triangle to see if they all comply with the theory - we just accept it on its word because no-one has yet been able to disprove it.

It's the same with other scientific theories, say for example evolution. I mean, people tell me that it's only a theory, as if there's something wrong with the word 'theory'. I mean, old Pythagoras's triangles are just a therory, but I don't see anyone disputing that one!

All it would take to disprove evolution would be to find a modern-day rabbit fossil in Silurian rock, Kangaroo fossils in Siberia, or elephants in the Pre-Cambrian. But to date, no-one has managed to disprove it. Primitive fossils are always found in older rocks, more modern fossils are found in newer rocks. There are many Christian geologists, geneticists and biologists looking into this stuff, and - just as with the triangles, no-one can find any problems with the theory - it's watertight - no-one has been able to disprove it... yet.

And so we move onto the Sun. Of course, many many scientists and astronomers have studied the movements of the planets and the stars. And you know what, I'd like to find any scientist of any reknown to come on here and post reasons why the Sun cannot be in the centre of the solar system, other than 'because the bible said so'.

Now, Strangelove has helpfully given us a list of references to the sun moving in the bible. But this proves nothing, for three reasons:

1) The Bible is there to spread the Word in a clear manner than can be read by everybody. In biblical times, people honestly thought that the Sun actually rose and set - the Bible was written to that effect so that the layperson could understand. I also believe that the creation of the Universe from the Big Bang, the formation of the Earth, the evolution of mankind, were 'simplified' by the authors of the Bible so that it could be better understood by the people of the day, who obviously knew nothing of genetics, quantum theory or astronomy. Of course God created the Heavens and the Earth, just that it probably happenned in a more complex way than the people of the time could comprehend.

2) Phrases such as 'the sun rises' and 'the sun sets' are still used today in everyday language, even by people who know that the Earth revolves around the Sun. It's a turn of phrase, not meant to be taken literally. Similarly, we know that stars don't twinkle, that moonlight is actually reflected sunlight, and that the Earth doesn't have corners!

3) The Bible describes the sun moving... of course it moves! It orbits the centre of the galaxy, just as the Earth orbits the sun. Even for heliocentrics, it's not technically wrong to describe the Sun as in motion.

There's a lot that the layperson cannot prove. having never seen the Earth from space, I cannot personally prove that the Earth isn't spherical. Having never personally been to the South Pole, I cannot confirm that it is covered in ice!

If a person cannot believe anything but that which he he himself has experienced, then that person is very skeptical indeed!

Instead we have scientists, whose work is reviewed, critiqued, debated and refined by thousands of their peers. Now, I'm willing to take all these people at their word - I myself studied phamacology, and I know first-hand from my university days how stringently scientific papers are reviewed!

We don't have to have intricate understandings of radiology to know that cancer treatments can work. We don't need to be chemists to appreciate alchohol. We just take this stuff on faith, because we have trust in the scientific community. And if we don't put our trust in science, then how can we ever allow ourselves to be treated in a hospital, or taught about atoms at school, or to get onto a jet airplane?

All science is only good until it can be proved wrong - until then, we just have to go with whichever theory fits the observations. And until there is unequivocable proof that 99.999999999999% of astronomers are wrong, then I'm inclined to go with the majority!

God be with you all,

K x
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
Sorry to wade in here...

Science works by people making observations, and testing them. A true scientist is neutral, and doesn't have any preconceived ideas - he just looks at the evidence and makes logical conclusions.

For example...

Pythagroas had a brilliant theory. He said that, if you draw a perfect square on the three sides of a right-angled triangle, the area of the smaller two squares would exactly equal the area of the largest square. This is called Pythagoras' theroem and is taught in schools everywhere...

And yet, it's technically only a theory. No-one has any proof whatosever that Pythagoras' idea is true of every single triangle. We can't possibly test every single right-angled triangle to see if they all comply with the theory - we just accept it on its word because no-one has yet been able to disprove it.

It's the same with other scientific theories, say for example evolution. I mean, people tell me that it's only a theory, as if there's something wrong with the word 'theory'. I mean, old Pythagoras's triangles are just a therory, but I don't see anyone disputing that one!

All it would take to disprove evolution would be to find a modern-day rabbit fossil in Silurian rock, Kangaroo fossils in Siberia, or elephants in the Pre-Cambrian. But to date, no-one has managed to disprove it. Primitive fossils are always found in older rocks, more modern fossils are found in newer rocks. There are many Christian geologists, geneticists and biologists looking into this stuff, and - just as with the triangles, no-one can find any problems with the theory - it's watertight - no-one has been able to disprove it... yet.

And so we move onto the Sun. Of course, many many scientists and astronomers have studied the movements of the planets and the stars. And you know what, I'd like to find any scientist of any reknown to come on here and post reasons why the Sun cannot be in the centre of the solar system, other than 'because the bible said so'.

Now, Strangelove has helpfully given us a list of references to the sun moving in the bible. But this proves nothing, for three reasons:

1) The Bible is there to spread the Word in a clear manner than can be read by everybody. In biblical times, people honestly thought that the Sun actually rose and set - the Bible was written to that effect so that the layperson could understand. I also believe that the creation of the Universe from the Big Bang, the formation of the Earth, the evolution of mankind, were 'simplified' by the authors of the Bible so that it could be better understood by the people of the day, who obviously knew nothing of genetics, quantum theory or astronomy. Of course God created the Heavens and the Earth, just that it probably happenned in a more complex way than the people of the time could comprehend.

2) Phrases such as 'the sun rises' and 'the sun sets' are still used today in everyday language, even by people who know that the Earth revolves around the Sun. It's a turn of phrase, not meant to be taken literally. Similarly, we know that stars don't twinkle, that moonlight is actually reflected sunlight, and that the Earth doesn't have corners!

3) The Bible describes the sun moving... of course it moves! It orbits the centre of the galaxy, just as the Earth orbits the sun. Even for heliocentrics, it's not technically wrong to describe the Sun as in motion.

There's a lot that the layperson cannot prove. having never seen the Earth from space, I cannot personally prove that the Earth isn't spherical. Having never personally been to the South Pole, I cannot confirm that it is covered in ice!

If a person cannot believe anything but that which he he himself has experienced, then that person is very skeptical indeed!

Instead we have scientists, whose work is reviewed, critiqued, debated and refined by thousands of their peers. Now, I'm willing to take all these people at their word - I myself studied phamacology, and I know first-hand from my university days how stringently scientific papers are reviewed!

We don't have to have intricate understandings of radiology to know that cancer treatments can work. We don't need to be chemists to appreciate alchohol. We just take this stuff on faith, because we have trust in the scientific community. And if we don't put our trust in science, then how can we ever allow ourselves to be treated in a hospital, or taught about atoms at school, or to get onto a jet airplane?

All science is only good until it can be proved wrong - until then, we just have to go with whichever theory fits the observations. And until there is unequivocable proof that 99.999999999999% of astronomers are wrong, then I'm inclined to go with the majority!

God be with you all,

K x
i like her :)

Keshka, can you come for dinner?

 
Feb 10, 2008
3,371
16
38
As I understand it, heliocentrists ARE claiming sun/earth movement IS significant. So... It would seem that heliocentrists bear at least the same burden of proof in any/every sense.

I'll take a long hard look at the Hebrew, though. I'm sure sonething will pop, one way or the other.

And BTW... I still haven't really taken a final position. I just see heliocentrism as very vulnerable and not inherent truth by any means at this point. Where are the absolute non-hypothetical proofs for the helio model? I see smoke with no fire.
I was taking the stance that the current scientific paradigm is heliocentricity. Thus, the onus falls on the person trying to change the status quo. Biblically, I was under the impression that we all agreed that the Bible wasn't intended to describe scientific fact, thus again, your argument that places where the sun's motion is described it IS describing scientific fact is again a change of the status quo.

If you believe that the Bible is intended to provide scientific fact, then one of my base assumptions is wrong and we have to take a step back before proceeding.

As for absolute non-hypothetical, if you were able to see some of Doc's old posts you would have found that he [at least] accepts that the planets revolve around the sun. Therefore by scientific induction, it seems highly probable that the earth is a planet and like other planets revolves around the sun. Note that unlike Philosophy and Logic, science is built upon (and requires) induction. Sufficient predictions based on the heliocentric model have proven accurate such that scientists have generally accepted the model. As such, it again falls to the geocentrists to demonstrate that earth is not a planet.

I have also noticed that I was taking much of keshka's post as assumed knowledge. If you haven't studied the philosophy of science perhaps I have assumed too much.

In conclusion, you have clearly stated, and I understand, that you don't hold a definite position either way, but you are presenting arguments for geocentrism, so I am providing arguments regarding my issues with geocentrism.
 
Feb 10, 2008
3,371
16
38
Biblically, I was under the impression that we all agreed that the Bible wasn't intended to describe scientific fact, thus again, your argument that places where the sun's motion is described it IS describing scientific fact is again a change of the status quo.
I think I need to re-write this awfully constructed sentence...

Biblically, I was under the impression that we all agreed that the Bible wasn't intended to describe scientific fact. Following this assumption, calling out the sun's motion as examples of places where the Bible is describing scientific fact also places the onus on the person making the claim; once again it is a change in the status quo.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
We don't have to have intricate understandings of radiology to know that cancer treatments can work. We don't need to be chemists to appreciate alchohol. We just take this stuff on faith, because we have trust in the scientific community. And if we don't put our trust in science, then how can we ever allow ourselves to be treated in a hospital, or taught about atoms at school, or to get onto a jet airplane?
God be with you all,

K x
hi Kx.
well, i reckon the first question i have, is: are 'cancer treatments' really working?
NO.

(yes, we have many many survivors, thank God).

how do i know? simple. it's the number 1 killer (in UK for example):

Cancer has become public enemy number one in England and Wales over the last 30 years, official figures show.
Data from National Statistics show that the incidence of cancer has risen by around 20% in men and 30% in women since 1970.

~

the point is for me rather: WHY ARE PEOPLE GETTING CANCER? and why are we radiating them and making them drink nuclear waste to "treat" cancer?

again....i can't go into it here, but i will elsewhere. this really isn't rocket science.

SV40 stands for Simian Virus 40.
SV40 was the 40th virus found in rhesus monkey kidney cells when these cells were used to make the polio vaccine. This virus contaminated both the Inactivated Polio Vaccine (IPV) created by Dr. Jonas Salk and the Oral or "Live" Polio Vaccine (OPV) created by Dr. Albert Sabin.


Children being fed sugar cubes with the oral polio vaccine. Circa 1961.

In1961,SV40 was discovered by Dr. Bernice Eddy of the National Institute of Health, Division of Biologics when she took the material used to grow polio vaccines and injected it into hamsters. Tumors grew in the hamsters. Her discovery was subsequently validated by Drs. Maurice Hilliman and Benjamin Sweet of Merck.

Upon the discovery that SV40 was an animal carcinogen that had found its way into the polio vaccines, a new federal law was passed in 1961 that required that no vaccines contain this virus. However, this law did not require that SV40 contaminated vaccines be thrown away or that the contaminated seed material (used to make all polio vaccines for the next four decades) be discarded.

As a result, known SV40 contaminated vaccines were injected into children up until 1963. In addition, it has been alleged that there have been SV40-contaminated batches of oral polio vaccine administered to some children until the end of the 1990's

http://www.sv40foundation.org/


Eugenics is currently defined as the "applied science or the bio-social movement which advocates the use of practices aimed at improving the genetic composition of a population", usually referring to human populations.[2] Historically, many of the practitioners of eugenics viewed eugenics as a science, not necessarily restricted to human populations; this embraced the views of Darwin and Social Darwinism.

aaaaanyways........:rolleyes:

Jonas Salk

Vaccinations and depopulation part 3 - YouTube

Vaccinations and depopulation part 4 - YouTube

Utopia can only be created through eugenics. - YouTube



i lost my husband to the monstrous sv40....i know all about this trash.
 
Last edited:
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
we 'observe' langragian points do we? Ok show me one in real life not on a peice of paper or on a computer.

thanks
yes we do observe them...they are stable points where masses can remain indefinitely

there are 'stationary' asteroids and clouds of interplanetary dust at the langrangian points...and we also send spacecraft there because they are able to stay there without needing to make any corrections that would require extra fuel

but like i said before...we do not observe -any- of those phenomena at the locations where a geocentric model would predict the presence of lagrangian points
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
Sorry to wade in here...

Pythagroas had a brilliant theory. He said that, if you draw a perfect square on the three sides of a right-angled triangle, the area of the smaller two squares would exactly equal the area of the largest square. This is called Pythagoras' theroem and is taught in schools everywhere...

And yet, it's technically only a theory. No-one has any proof whatosever that Pythagoras' idea is true of every single triangle. We can't possibly test every single right-angled triangle to see if they all comply with the theory - we just accept it on its word because no-one has yet been able to disprove it.
actually the pythagoran theorem has been proven...many different times and using many different methods
 
J

JohnChingford2007

Guest
All it would take to disprove evolution would be to find a modern-day rabbit fossil in Silurian rock, Kangaroo fossils in Siberia, or elephants in the Pre-Cambrian. But to date, no-one has managed to disprove it. Primitive fossils are always found in older rocks, more modern fossils are found in newer rocks. There are many Christian geologists, geneticists and biologists looking into this stuff, and - just as with the triangles, no-one can find any problems with the theory - it's watertight - no-one has been able to disprove it... yet.
K x
Hi Keshka

I hope you hang around to see our responses to your statements. I quote just a small section of your statement which can be answered very easily and speedily. I answer this part as starters. I am sure others will tackle your other points. Basically the statement you have made is NOT true.

I ask you, have you read "Answer In Genesis" (a creationist organisation) or watched any of their videos on evolution? They have discovered MANY inconsistencies in evolution and have proved that fossils can develop very quickly - not millions of years. They have the evidence but there is a conspiracy by the "establishment" to hide this information from the general public. One of the ways they do this is by seeking to humiliate, ridicule and basically lie through the back of their teeths. Why do they do this? They do this because the god of this world (satan) is influencing them to blind people into rejecting the Creator.

Here is a sample video from aig:

Dating Fossils And Rocks
 
K

keshka

Guest
hi Kx.
well, i reckon the first question i have, is: are 'cancer treatments' really working?
NO.

(yes, we have many many survivors, thank God).

how do i know? simple. it's the number 1 killer (in UK for example):

Cancer has become public enemy number one in England and Wales over the last 30 years, official figures show.
Data from National Statistics show that the incidence of cancer has risen by around 20% in men and 30% in women since 1970.
Off-topic now, but cancer treatments can do good - it's a little disconcerting to see you state that that they don't work, when they can make a difference.

But of course, there's no total cure, so scientists and charities dedicate their lives in their quest to refine and improve current treatments.

Besides which, cancer has always been a killer. Peopler have always gotten cancer throughout history.

But because people in the past died so young, or from now-curable diseases such as TB, smallpox, cholera, malaria etc., they just didn't live long enough to get cancer in the first place!

The ony reason it's the biggest killer in today's western world is simply due to the fact that we've pretty much solved everything else - it's just the next thing on the list that we have to overcome!

PS - Don't fall into the trap of equating Eugenics to Darwinism - Darwin told us that species naturally adapt and evolve over time to better survive in their environment - breeding out undesired genetic traits on aesthetic grounds is not something that Darwin himself necessarily approved of.

In any case, Eugenics (to a lesser degree) can be advantageous, and not necessarily a bad thing. For example, most of the crops and livestock that we are familiar with today came about via selective breeding. The pig, the tomato, even the grain of wheat, are very different (and better) today when compared to five thousand years ago - and that's all down to Eugenics!
 
Aug 18, 2011
971
7
0
Hi Keshka

I hope you hang around to see our responses to your statements. I quote just a small section of your statement which can be answered very easily and speedily. I answer this part as starters. I am sure others will tackle your other points. Basically the statement you have made is NOT true.

I ask you, have you read "Answer In Genesis" (a creationist organisation) or watched any of their videos on evolution? They have discovered MANY inconsistencies in evolution and have proved that fossils can develop very quickly - not millions of years. They have the evidence but there is a conspiracy by the "establishment" to hide this information from the general public. One of the ways they do this is by seeking to humiliate, ridicule and basically lie through the back of their teeths. Why do they do this? They do this because the god of this world (satan) is influencing them to blind people into rejecting the Creator.

Here is a sample video from aig:

Dating Fossils And Rocks
Watched the video John and found it very loose in its debunking of traditional thought He does show his sources though they are few in comparison to the people on the other side of the fence VERY FEW

Furthermore on his analysis of carbon 14 dating just like any debunker he focuses on very explicit cases instead of the field as a whole to support his theory.
There has been as much evidence put forth on carbon 14 dating as there has I do not find it difficult to believe someone would jump ship because they feel that their faith is being attacked because of the findings.
Do you remember when you first realised Santa and the easter bunny weren't real?
 
Feb 23, 2011
1,708
13
0
see the Tin Foil thread for the Global Warming "science" hoax.

see just how far the "scientists" who live off grants will go.

see the reasons for it, who initiated it and how far along it is.

i challenge ANY scientist reading this to stand by the "theory" of Global Warming.

can't talk about it here, but this is a starter:

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The common enemy of humanity is man.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]with the idea that[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] pollution, the threat of global warming, [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill. All these[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]dangers are caused by human intervention, and it is only through[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]changed attitudes and behavior that they can be overcome.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The real enemy then, is humanity itself."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]- Club of Rome[/FONT]
Anthropomorphic Global Warming is too lame to even earn hoax status. I'll read the thread, of course, but it's not necessary.

I reject most "Socio-Political Pseudo-Science". I just never really considered heliocentricity in the whole mix for some reason. It's like Talmudic Judaism... I just need some ribbon and a few bows to package up all the stuff I'm already well aware of.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
yes we do observe them...they are stable points where masses can remain indefinitely

there are 'stationary' asteroids and clouds of interplanetary dust at the langrangian points...and we also send spacecraft there because they are able to stay there without needing to make any corrections that would require extra fuel

but like i said before...we do not observe -any- of those phenomena at the locations where a geocentric model would predict the presence of lagrangian points
how do we know they are stationary when we (and our satellites) are supposedly moving?

could you provide me with photos and documentation of the craft sent there and the data sent back please?
what kind of fuel is used to get the craft there?
thank you.

i don't understand the model/predict language if this is solid evidence. thank you.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
But because people in the past died so young, or from now-curable diseases such as TB, smallpox, cholera, malaria etc., they just didn't live long enough to get cancer in the first place!!
i'm sorry dear.
children getting cancer is evidence that you are incorrect.
cancer is new.

The ony reason it's the biggest killer in today's western world is simply due to the fact that we've pretty much solved everything else - it's just the next thing on the list that we have to overcome! !
its the number one killer because its meant to be.
it will not be overcome....there's no plan to provide the cures....the cures are being made illegal.

B17 cures cancer. illegal.

PS - Don't fall into the trap of equating Eugenics to Darwinism - Darwin told us that species naturally adapt and evolve over time to better survive in their environment - breeding out undesired genetic traits on aesthetic grounds is not something that Darwin himself necessarily approved of.!
darwin was an idiotic tool sent to force a theory to fit the eugenics agenda. not the other way around.

In any case, Eugenics (to a lesser degree) can be advantageous, and not necessarily a bad thing. For example, most of the crops and livestock that we are familiar with today came about via selective breeding. The pig, the tomato, even the grain of wheat, are very different (and better) today when compared to five thousand years ago - and that's all down to Eugenics!
no.
no.
no.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Anthropomorphic Global Warming is too lame to even earn hoax status. I'll read the thread, of course, but it's not necessary.

I reject most "Socio-Political Pseudo-Science". I just never really considered heliocentricity in the whole mix for some reason. It's like Talmudic Judaism... I just need some ribbon and a few bows to package up all the stuff I'm already well aware of.
LOL bud. i only posted it as more evidence that "science" is largely smoke and mirrors, which you already know, more precisely that men and women are capable of either directly deceiving or being duped themselves.

white jackets/uniforms are symbolic of a certain authority. we are so easily conditioned.

scripture is clear that "pharmacology" is sorcery. i don't reject all medicine or science. just stating the obvious.
 
Feb 23, 2011
1,708
13
0
I was taking the stance that the current scientific paradigm is heliocentricity. Thus, the onus falls on the person trying to change the status quo. Biblically, I was under the impression that we all agreed that the Bible wasn't intended to describe scientific fact, thus again, your argument that places where the sun's motion is described it IS describing scientific fact is again a change of the status quo.

If you believe that the Bible is intended to provide scientific fact, then one of my base assumptions is wrong and we have to take a step back before proceeding.

As for absolute non-hypothetical, if you were able to see some of Doc's old posts you would have found that he [at least] accepts that the planets revolve around the sun. Therefore by scientific induction, it seems highly probable that the earth is a planet and like other planets revolves around the sun. Note that unlike Philosophy and Logic, science is built upon (and requires) induction. Sufficient predictions based on the heliocentric model have proven accurate such that scientists have generally accepted the model. As such, it again falls to the geocentrists to demonstrate that earth is not a planet.

I have also noticed that I was taking much of keshka's post as assumed knowledge. If you haven't studied the philosophy of science perhaps I have assumed too much.

In conclusion, you have clearly stated, and I understand, that you don't hold a definite position either way, but you are presenting arguments for geocentrism, so I am providing arguments regarding my issues with geocentrism.
I really do get all that, and I understand your entire path of reasoning, and it's very sound on a stand-alone basis. It also applies in a general sense to the many capable and well-meaning minions of science and medicine who are toiling away with good intentions and great contributions. I've also perused a reasonable bit of philosophy of science.

Here's the caveat... The ulterior motives and pervasive agenda of those ushering in the Eschaton eclipses certain areas of science and medicine in many ways. I view ALL science and medicine through that "filter" because I have made my life's stewardship to be focused on these types of things by leadership of the Spirit. I don't accept a "status quo" in a sense, but I do recognize such things and weigh them on a relative scale.

For instance, I don't question much in fields like metallurgy or other "hard" sciences; but I closely scrutinize anything that is vulnerable to humanistic agendas for manipulation. Darwinism is a prime example of rejecting the status quo of science. Meaning... I'm not a scientific concordist.

I also don't universally play the "theory card", recognizing that theories aren't merely hypotheses or postulates.

I interact with a small group of Agnostic Cognitive Science grad students regularly, and we have wide-ranging convos about cutting-edge areas of various sciences. The professing Atheists are often quite difficult to converse with, but I seem to be able to generally get them to engage for awhile because I genuinely underdtand their gripes and perceptions about Christian hypocracy and the like.

I just utilize my "filter" to sort through many things. Scientists are/can be at least as closed-minded and indoctrinated as Christians are/can be. And the very foundations of some sciences are tainted in some manner by clandestine agendas.

I seek the Spirit of truth regarding all things. If science is corroborated or refuted, in full or in part, I want truth. God's Word is truth. Scripture doesn't have to address something to speak to my heart through the Spirit.
 
Aug 18, 2011
971
7
0
I really do get all that, and I understand your entire path of reasoning, and it's very sound on a stand-alone basis. It also applies in a general sense to the many capable and well-meaning minions of science and medicine who are toiling away with good intentions and great contributions. I've also perused a reasonable bit of philosophy of science.

Here's the caveat... The ulterior motives and pervasive agenda of those ushering in the Eschaton eclipses certain areas of science and medicine in many ways. I view ALL science and medicine through that "filter" because I have made my life's stewardship to be focused on these types of things by leadership of the Spirit. I don't accept a "status quo" in a sense, but I do recognize such things and weigh them on a relative scale.

For instance, I don't question much in fields like metallurgy or other "hard" sciences; but I closely scrutinize anything that is vulnerable to humanistic agendas for manipulation. Darwinism is a prime example of rejecting the status quo of science. Meaning... I'm not a scientific concordist.

I also don't universally play the "theory card", recognizing that theories aren't merely hypotheses or postulates.

I interact with a small group of Agnostic Cognitive Science grad students regularly, and we have wide-ranging convos about cutting-edge areas of various sciences. The professing Atheists are often quite difficult to converse with, but I seem to be able to generally get them to engage for awhile because I genuinely underdtand their gripes and perceptions about Christian hypocracy and the like.

I just utilize my "filter" to sort through many things. Scientists are/can be at least as closed-minded and indoctrinated as Christians are/can be. And the very foundations of some sciences are tainted in some manner by clandestine agendas.

I seek the Spirit of truth regarding all things. If science is corroborated or refuted, in full or in part, I want truth. God's Word is truth. Scripture doesn't have to address something to speak to my heart through the Spirit.
I too seek the truth PPS I am curious about the authorship of the bible could you help me with a few things?