Is irresistible grace willing to believe.

[Jordon]

I'm believing I have all this correct.

In this sermon we get to understand the belief system and it's origin centred around irresistible grace

Key points

There was once a discussion between Augustine and John cassion, about whether man in his fallen condition still had some inner moral nature to obey God.

It's thought that the disscusuon that use to take place between Augustine and cassion was far better than that of Pelagius.

Augustine being the main mentor of reformed faith, such as Luther and Calvin. cared very much about importance of people have complete assurance they where saved.

Pelagianism ie the doctrine from pelagius where considered hardcore Pelagianism, where as doctrines from cassion where considered semi Pelagianism. The two disagree on doctrine and Augustine disagreed with both of them.



Why hard core Pelagianism was considered anti Christian, was because it rejected the fall of man on the bases it only affected Adam, and preached fallen people don't need to be redeemed and so they could choose by there choice alone . So of course this struck at the heart of Augustine and cassion,. cassion now being the church father of semi Pelagianism, which is the most popular belief of today in Christianity

discussions between semi Pelagianism, have been an on going debate. but even in there faith there has seen many heretics. And at one time both semi and hardcore Pelagianism was rejected as heretic by the catholic church.

However semi Pelagianism is open to negotiation.as it seen as the main belief of the Christian church today, what churches are semi plagiarism, roman catholic church is one amongst others. Despite them once rejecting it.

Key point to the sermon is saving grace is available to all in some ways but it gets technical.



Hard core Pelagianism taught that grace didn't save man but man could choose because they retained some moral choice

Semi Pelagianism rebelled against that and is the most popular belief of the church today, and said no grace is offered to all but man can still choose,

Augustine ism taught irresistible grace is offered to the elect only meaning those who he knew would be saved but it is the work of the holy spirit that saves alone, meaning man can't make a choice and need the effectual grace to take a hold as man can't choose.


Rc Sproul views, is irresistible grace should be seen as effectual grace.

RC Sproul teaches common grace is offered to all, meaning Gods mercy. Which must be what Augustine believed to,. well at least thats what I'm believing at present, and I'm believing that common grace is the calling that all receive.

Common grace is seen as a blessing to to all mankind

 

[Jordon]

So it looks like RC Sproul believes all mankind is blessed with common grace

Common grace is a theological concept in Christianity referring to God's undeserved blessings, goodness, and favor extended universally to all humanity, distinct from special saving grace for believers, encompassing everyday gifts like life, health, sunshine, rain, natural talents, societal order (government, law), and beauty, which sustain creation and restrain sin's effects, benefiting both the righteous and wicked. It explains why non-believers can experience joy, develop culture, and enjoy the world, demonstrating God's general kindness despite humanity's fallen state.


My question did Augustine believed this to.


My next question did Augustine believe that you could make a spiritual choice after enabling grace

 

[GWH]

So it looks like RC Sproul believes all mankind is blessed with common grace

Common grace is a theological concept in Christianity referring to God's undeserved blessings, goodness, and favor extended universally to all humanity, distinct from special saving grace for believers, encompassing everyday gifts like life, health, sunshine, rain, natural talents, societal order (government, law), and beauty, which sustain creation and restrain sin's effects, benefiting both the righteous and wicked. It explains why non-believers can experience joy, develop culture, and enjoy the world, demonstrating God's general kindness despite humanity's fallen state.


My question did Augustine believed this to.


My next question did Augustine believe that you could make a spiritual choice after enabling grace

The answer to your OP is "no", but Augustine realized the problem with that doctrine and imagined that God knew what souls would choose to every option they had, so He presented the elect only with options that led toward receiving grace. However, this did not solve other problems, because it meant God showed favoritism and effectively hated the non-elect.

 

[Jordon]

The answer to your OP is "no", but Augustine realized the problem with that doctrine and imagined that God knew what souls would choose to every option they had, so He presented the elect only with options that led toward receiving grace. However, this did not solve other problems, because it meant God showed favoritism and effectively hated the non-elect.

This is what is hindering my belief I need to know if RC sproul a firm believer in Augustine, believed that common grace was also predestined to all mankind, which is seen as a calling all mankind is predestined to. Which leads to them being called, ie becoming elect

If it doesn't mean that then I have to say I can't believe in the belief system of irresistible grace, in tulip.

However it seems to be suggesting it does, now my question is why would RC Sproul believe common grace is blessing for all mankind being predestined to, if Augustine never believed that.

If Augustine never believed that, then there might there's ground to believe Augustine believed God never and doesn't even speak to some people from birth.

If that's the case I then have to say I can't believe in the tulip version of irresistible grace

 

[GWH]

This is what is hindering my belief I need to know if RC sproul a firm believer in Augustine, believed that common grace was also predestined to all mankind, which is seen as a calling all mankind is predestined to. Which leads to them being called, ie becoming elect

If it doesn't mean that then I have to say I can't believe in the belief system of irresistible grace, in tulip.

However it seems to be suggesting it does, now my question is why would RC Sproul believe common grace is blessing for all mankind being predestined to, if Augustine never believed that.

If Augustine never believed that, then there might there's ground to believe Augustine believed God never and doesn't even speak to some people from birth.

If that's the case I then have to say I can't believe in the tulip version of irresistible grace

My guess is that Sproul had sense enough to realize it is wrong to accuse God of favoritism and hatred even implicitly,
so he amended TULIP with common grace, which is what I also do with enabling grace, but it does mean rejecting the I
(for starters). The choice is between believing Augustine of Hippo or believing Paul of Tarsus.

 

[Jordon]

My guess is that Sproul had sense enough to realize it is wrong to accuse God of favoritism and hatred even implicitly,
so he amended TULIP with common grace, which is what I also do with enabling grace, but it does mean rejecting the I
(for starters). The choice is between believing Augustine of Hippo or believing Paul of Tarsus.

ok so this is good that you acknowledge that your unsure if he did amend Augustine.

Now have you searched for evidence on this matter as to whether he did or not ?

 

[Jordon]

So here's a brief summary from evidence

I just started reading The Holiness of God by R.C. Sproul and it has been changing my life. Once I finish I will write more about all that I've learned, but for this Monday I want to leave you with a section that really convicted me this morning. Sproul is talking about how we grow familiar with God's mercy

Available to all sinners

Every one of us at some time has been a victim of injustice at the hands of another person. Every one of us at some time has committed an injustice against another person. People treat each other unfairly. One thing is certain: No matter how much injustice I have suffered from the hands of other people, I have never suffered the slightest injustice from the hand of God."

Praise the Lord that, in spite of our sinfulness before a holy God, we are given mercy.

 

[Jordon]

Further evidence

Even the catholics recognise Augustine taught God's mercy is available to all

Instagram https://share.google/t5urEWcxTww9diJdj

You have to click on the continue to the web version at the top to watch it

 

[Jordon]

So the evidence is Saint Augustine was saved when he heeded Gods call.

Heeded means took notice

 

[GWH]

ok so this is good that you acknowledge that your unsure if he did amend Augustine.

Now have you searched for evidence on this matter as to whether he did or not ?

No, I am unsure because I don't know a thing about Sproul other than what Google tells me.

But to answer your OP: irresistible grace bypasses/nullifies/abrogates MFW.

 

[Jordon]

No, I am unsure because I don't know a thing about Sproul other than what Google tells me.

But to answer your OP: irresistible grace bypasses/nullifies/abrogates MFW.

well that's upto you, if you would rather look at Google than hear it from the horse's mouth on all the threads I've posted answering all the wrong ideas you have with his sermons . Then I'm afraid to say your God is the God of Google, but I would rather not say that.

 

[GWH]

well that's upto you, if you would rather look at Google than hear it from the horse's mouth on all the threads I've posted answering all the wrong ideas you have with his sermons . Then I'm afraid to say your God is the God of Google, but I would rather not say that.

I am mainly discussing based on what you say about Sproul's opinions, not Google.
I listened to part of one video and I noted what Google said one time.
What wrong ideas do I have about his sermons?!
I don't recall even discussing him very much.

 

[Jordon]

I am mainly discussing based on what you say about Sproul's opinions, not Google.
I listened to part of one video and I noted what Google said one time.
What wrong ideas do I have about his sermons?!
I don't recall even discussing him very much.

you need to listen to them all watch the first one in this thread, which is the softener before this one.

 

[Jordon]

you need to listen to them all watch the first one in this thread, which is the softener before this one.

so the evidence here on what where in disagreement is this

The two main separations of the church today

Augustine taught grace is offered to all and all are predestined to receive some kind of grace, but it's only God that makes a person believe as in, enables him to make the spiritual choice to love his son


Cassion taught no grace is offered to all but man can make a choice

Both cassion and Augustine taught all are predestined to receive this choice.

Augustine argues that if God predestined all mankind to make a choice based on there own decision in there fallen condition, no one would be elected, because everyone all has the same fallen condition, and it would not be fair that some could say yes or no.


So in a nut shell ladies and gentleman this is what we have all been arguing about.

Question is now which way do you go. ?

 

[GWH]

you need to listen to them all watch the first one in this thread, which is the softener before this one.

No thanks. I will depend on you to share anything new to the discussion of tulip that he says.

 

[Jordon]

No thanks. I will depend on you to share anything new to the discussion of tulip that he says.

ok one question before I go.

Do you think is fair God should predestine all mankind to make a choice on yes or no in there fallen condition, and outcast those who say no

 

[Jordon]

No thanks. I will depend on you to share anything new to the discussion of tulip that he says.

ok one question before I go.

Do you think is fair God should predestine all mankind to make a choice on yes or no in there fallen condition, and outcast those who say no

did you understand the question ?